JM_ Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: we need to stop worrying about team season success, and worry more about player growth, player growth bring hope of a brighter tomorrow. But thats where Gagner fits in tho, we need some vets to help bring the youth along. Boeser e.g., may be able to learn a lot and gain some confidence on the PP by watching this guy. We also desperately need something new on the PP, even if its so-so we have to be able to score occasionally otherwise teams are just going to continue to push us around at will. How many times last did you hope that we didn't go on the PP because it would kill our momentum? I know I did more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Torts finished with 83 points, WD finished with 75 and 69 points. Sure JB signed a few players but how is that any different than the similar players we've had. Matthias, Santo, Richardson, Vbrata, Prust, Higgins, Vey. I think the signings have far more to do with letting the youth develop slowly than it does with loading up this team for a playoff push this year. Both coaches suffered massive injuries to their core players. People seems to forget how badly injured canucks were in torts' season. We were top 10 up until the injuries started piling up in Jan. We lost our #1 goalie, Hank broke his rib, Burrows broke his jaw, Santo missed half the season, Booth well injured again, Edler also missed 20 games. WD played megna, Chaput, Torts has Stanton, Dalpe, welsh, Schroeder, jensen In the last 4 years we've been 6th worst, 3rd worst and 2nd worst. If it happened one time, sure we can say yah "bad luck", if it happens two times, we could right it off as just being "really unlucky", but if happens three times, you have to start accepting it. We are a team that has bee relying on players who put in hard minutes. The twins aren't getting any younger, edler and tanev are being relied on way to heavily and their bodies can't handle it. This team if everything goes right, (completely healthy, consistent goal tending, career high for young players) is a bubble team. That's if everything goes well. If the last 4 years has told us anything, things never go right for us. Our division just stacked up even more, Realistically we are a bottom 10 bottom 5 team in the league. If you don't want to be disappointed this year. we need to stop worrying about team season success, and worry more about player growth, player growth bring hope of a brighter tomorrow. Exactly, we have had poor depth since the glory days. Benning went out and got the depth we needed to stay competitive over the course of the whole season (Hopefully). This team could have easily made the playoffs every year since Benning has been here if not for poor health and depth. Which has been a staple in Vancouver for almost as long as I have followed this team. I am worried about player growth. Best way to grow them isn't on a bottom 10 or 5 team as you predict, so that makes these signings a good thing in that case as well. Having an abundance of NHL caliber players is always better for any team. On one hand it could be the difference to making and missing the playoffs, or it can keep you from playing young guys way too soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said: But thats where Gagner fits in tho, we need some vets to help bring the youth along. Boeser e.g., may be able to learn a lot and gain some confidence on the PP by watching this guy. We also desperately need something new on the PP, even if its so-so we have to be able to score occasionally otherwise teams are just going to continue to push us around at will. I don't think Gagner is the role model type for Boeser. He's more of a place holder for guys like Goldy, Pettersson, and Dahlen, to allow them to get more experience in the AHL and SHL rather than rushing them in to the NHL. I've already said this, but gagner isn't barely going to have an effect on our PP, the really benefit is when they figure out how to effectively use brocks shot. Our PP sucks because we are missing a PMD (ehrhoff) and a trigger man (salo/vbrata) with a big shot. Look at the caps and there top PP unit, ovi (trigger) in the slot with the big shot. Karlsson/Shattenkirk (pmd), Backstrom and Johansen as the play makers on the side wall and down low, and Oshie in front providing the screen. We already have our side wall and down low play makers in the sedins. We have our net front presence in Eriksson, but we are missing the PMD (edler doesn't cut it) and our trigger man (hopefully brock) 1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said: How many times last did you hope that we didn't go on the PP because it would kill our momentum? I know I did more than once. Do you remember why you hated it?... Because we played keep away for the full two minutes and never managed to get a single shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Torts finished with 83 points, WD finished with 75 and 69 points. Sure JB signed a few players but how is that any different than the similar players we've had. Matthias, Santo, Richardson, Vbrata, Prust, Higgins, Vey. I think the signings have far more to do with letting the youth develop slowly than it does with loading up this team for a playoff push this year. Both coaches suffered massive injuries to their core players. People seems to forget how badly injured canucks were in torts' season. We were top 10 up until the injuries started piling up in Jan. We lost our #1 goalie, Hank broke his rib, Burrows broke his jaw, Santo missed half the season, Booth well injured again, Edler also missed 20 games. WD played megna, Chaput, Torts has Stanton, Dalpe, welsh, Schroeder, jensen In the last 4 years we've been 6th worst, 3rd worst and 2nd worst. If it happened one time, sure we can say yah "bad luck", if it happens two times, we could right it off as just being "really unlucky", but if happens three times, you have to start accepting it. We are a team that has bee relying on players who put in hard minutes. The twins aren't getting any younger, edler and tanev are being relied on way to heavily and their bodies can't handle it. This team if everything goes right, (completely healthy, consistent goal tending, career high for young players) is a bubble team. That's if everything goes well. If the last 4 years has told us anything, things never go right for us. Our division just stacked up even more, Realistically we are a bottom 10 bottom 5 team in the league. If you don't want to be disappointed this year. we need to stop worrying about team season success, and worry more about player growth, player growth bring hope of a brighter tomorrow. Well said... in hindsight, I don't hate Torts as much anymore. Aside from the Heritage classic debacle with Lui, I don't mind what he did here. Will forever have some great lolz over his Hartley attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: I don't think Gagner is the role model type for Boeser. He's more of a place holder for guys like Goldy, Pettersson, and Dahlen, to allow them to get more experience in the AHL and SHL rather than rushing them in to the NHL. I've already said this, but gagner isn't barely going to have an effect on our PP, the really benefit is when they figure out how to effectively use brocks shot. Our PP sucks because we are missing a PMD (ehrhoff) and a trigger man (salo/vbrata) with a big shot. Look at the caps and there top PP unit, ovi (trigger) in the slot with the big shot. Karlsson/Shattenkirk (pmd), Backstrom and Johansen as the play makers on the side wall and down low, and Oshie in front providing the screen. We already have our side wall and down low play makers in the sedins. We have our net front presence in Eriksson, but we are missing the PMD (edler doesn't cut it) and our trigger man (hopefully brock) Do you remember why you hated it?... Because we played keep away for the full two minutes and never managed to get a single shot. But why not? CBJ Zach Werenski, Sam Gagner, Cam Atkinson, Nick Foligno and Alexander Wennberg, as their top unit for a while. Is Del Zotto, Gagner, the twins and Boeser that different that they can't at least pull us closer to league average? I do remember why I hated it, Daniel to Henrik to Daniel to Henrik oops someone let it go by the blue line.... but with Del Z and Gagner we at least have reasonable facsimiles of what a top unit should look like. Don't get me wrong I don't think they are going to take the league by storm but maybe capable of 18, 19%, given we'll have a second unit with Bo, Loui and Granny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 hour ago, S'all Good Man said: But thats where Gagner fits in tho, we need some vets to help bring the youth along. Boeser e.g., may be able to learn a lot and gain some confidence on the PP by watching this guy. We also desperately need something new on the PP, even if its so-so we have to be able to score occasionally otherwise teams are just going to continue to push us around at will. How many times last did you hope that we didn't go on the PP because it would kill our momentum? I know I did more than once. Adding Gagner/MDZ is also going to address some of Forsberg's concerns about relying too heavily on the Sedins and Edler/Tanev. By creating a similar (albeit lesser version) bottom 6 offensive line as to what PIT had with Bonino/Kessel behind Crosby and Malkin's lines, it creates a match up problem for the opposition. Who do they chose to try and shut down with their better defensive pair/forwards? The Horvat line? The Sedin line? The Gagner line? That's going to open up space for somebody too score and help ensure we don't rely too heavily on ONE line to produce offense. Same with our D pairs. As of right now, I'd say we're looking like: Edler, Stecher Hutton, Tanev MDZ, Gudbranson Can anyone really tell me which is our 1st, 2nd or 3rd pair? Because those basically look like three 2nd pairs to me. Minutes will be spread this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 minute ago, J.R. said: Adding Gagner/MDZ is also going to address some of Forsberg's concerns about relying too heavily on the Sedins and Edler/Tanev. By creating a similar (albeit lesser version) bottom 6 offensive line as to what PIT had with Bonino/Kessel behind Crosby and Malkin's lines, it creates a match up problem for the opposition. Who do they chose to try and shut down with their better defensive pair/forwards? The Horvat line? The Sedin line? The Gagner line? That's going to open up space for somebody too score and help ensure we don't rely too heavily on ONE line to produce offense. Same with our D pairs. As of right now, I'd say we're looking like: Edler, Stecher Hutton, Tanev MDZ, Gudbranson Can anyone really tell me which is our 1st, 2nd or 3rd pair? Because those basically look like three 2nd pairs to me. Minutes will be spread this year. Edler was over used by WD last year so I hope the time is a little more even. Juolevi might make Hutton expendable in a trade, we'll see how camp goes. That would give us this and make me happy: Edler, Stecher OJ, Tanev MDZ, Gudbranson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: Edler was over used by WD last year so I hope the time is a little more even. Juolevi might make Hutton expendable in a trade, we'll see how camp goes. That would give us this and make me happy: Edler, Stecher OJ, Tanev MDZ, Gudbranson I'd probably swap OJ and MDZ in that case but yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, J.R. said: I'd probably swap OJ and MDZ in that case but yup. I was originally thinking that too but I wonder if Guddy is much of a mentor? He's only 25 and dealing with some issues himself (comeback year, UFA year). Tanev certainly would be an ideal first partner for OJ from a development pov. And if thats what next year is about vs "winning" then why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 hour ago, N7Nucks said: Exactly, we have had poor depth since the glory days. Benning went out and got the depth we needed to stay competitive over the course of the whole season (Hopefully). This team could have easily made the playoffs every year since Benning has been here if not for poor health and depth. I don't know if I agree with that, we could have been close to a wild card spot but I wouldn't say easily made the playoffs. This year i think it's even a bigger stretch, our division has got a lot stronger, we won't be able to compete with Oilers, Flames, sharks and ducks, That means immediately we are looking for the last wild card spot, Stars, Hawks, Preds, Blues, and wild have all ramp'd up, With no true first line, with a question mark as our starting tender, with a top 2 D who've been known to miss at min 20 games a year over the last 4 years. I don't see us being a realistic option for the wild card. 1 hour ago, N7Nucks said: Which has been a staple in Vancouver for almost as long as I have followed this team. I am worried about player growth. Best way to grow them isn't on a bottom 10 or 5 team as you predict, so that makes these signings a good thing in that case as well. I don't agree with that either honestly. Players will develop just fine as long as we put a focus on building there confidence and sheltering them. 70% of the top scorers in the league came into the NHL on bottom 10 teams. Kane, Toews, Backstrom, Scheifele, Johansen, it didn't effect them from being top end players. Even the oilers players developed fine. Hall is a ppg player, Eberle and RNH are 60 point players, Leon and Mcdavid also have turned into top players, Klebom is now a top pairing D. Yak and Schultz are the only real real fails, and it was less about standings with the and more about usage/expectations. 1 hour ago, N7Nucks said: Having an abundance of NHL caliber players is always better for any team. On one hand it could be the difference to making and missing the playoffs, or it can keep you from playing young guys way too soon. There is a really fine line. Sometimes reliance on more experience players can also prevent youth the needed opportunity to prove them self. It's a hard balance to want to win and develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Just now, S'all Good Man said: I was originally thinking that too but I wonder if Guddy is much of a mentor? He's only 25 and dealing with some issues himself (comeback year, UFA year). Tanev certainly would be an ideal first partner for OJ from a development pov. And if thats what next year is about vs "winning" then why not? Guddy has loads of leadership and would be a good complimentary player (where Tanev is too similar play style IMO). I'd also like him there to pummel opposing players in to the ice if they dare try to try to take advantage of our prized D prospect. Tanev's not going to to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 27 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: But why not? CBJ Zach Werenski, Sam Gagner, Cam Atkinson, Nick Foligno and Alexander Wennberg, as their top unit for a while. Is Del Zotto, Gagner, the twins and Boeser that different that they can't at least pull us closer to league average? yes it's quite different. Zero net from presence, and you're still missing the most important part a true PMD, werenski and del zotto aren't on the same page. 27 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: I do remember why I hated it, Daniel to Henrik to Daniel to Henrik oops someone let it go by the blue line.... but with Del Z and Gagner we at least have reasonable facsimiles of what a top unit should look like. Don't get me wrong I don't think they are going to take the league by storm but maybe capable of 18, 19%, given we'll have a second unit with Bo, Loui and Granny? Gagner would look better on the second unit with Hutton, Boeser, Horvat, Baertschi. Brock being the trigger, hutton being the pmd and horvat in front. him and baer could be the side wall play makers. gagner and the sedins wont work out. just what and see, sedins need a trigger (aka vbrata/salo/garrison) and a net front presence (Kesler/burrows) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: yes it's quite different. Zero net from presence, and you're still missing the most important part a true PMD, werenski and del zotto aren't on the same page. Gagner would look better on the second unit with Hutton, Boeser, Horvat, Baertschi. Brock being the trigger, hutton being the pmd and horvat in front. him and baer could be the side wall play makers. gagner and the sedins wont work out. just what and see, sedins need a trigger (aka vbrata/salo/garrison) and a net front presence (Kesler/burrows) Del Z has been in that PMD role before though... but we'll see if he can get it back. I like the 2nd unit idea there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, J.R. said: Adding Gagner/MDZ is also going to address some of Forsberg's concerns about relying too heavily on the Sedins and Edler/Tanev. By creating a similar (albeit lesser version) bottom 6 offensive line as to what PIT had with Bonino/Kessel behind Crosby and Malkin's lines, it creates a match up problem for the opposition. Who do they chose to try and shut down with their better defensive pair/forwards? The Horvat line? The Sedin line? The Gagner line? That's going to open up space for somebody too score and help ensure we don't rely too heavily on ONE line to produce offense. Same with our D pairs. As of right now, I'd say we're looking like: Edler, Stecher Hutton, Tanev MDZ, Gudbranson Can anyone really tell me which is our 1st, 2nd or 3rd pair? Because those basically look like three 2nd pairs to me. Minutes will be spread this year. The biggest difference it pits has 2 first line and a strong 2nd line. We have one second line and 2 third lines. I don't think teams are going to have as big of issues matching up against our team as you think. This team is still a bottom feeder. Gagner doesn't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: The biggest difference it pits has 2 first line and a strong 2nd line. We have one second line and 2 third lines. I don't think teams are going to have as big of issues matching up against our team as you think. This team is still a bottom feeder. Gagner doesn't change that. Did you miss: 36 minutes ago, J.R. said: (albeit lesser version) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, J.R. said: Did you miss: Nope. Just thinking it's stupid to mention the two in the same sentence, we don't have enough talent to go around to provide line up match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Nope. Just thinking it's stupid to mention the two in the same sentence, we don't have enough talent to go around to provide line up match up. Sure we do. Again, nobody's saying we have anything like Crosby/Malkin or that we won't have a likely bottom 10 team but we can create a line match up issue that will at least keep us semi-competitive and in games and relatively entertaining (that we'll likely lose more of than win). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, J.R. said: Sure we do. Again, nobody's saying we have anything like Crosby/Malkin or that we won't have a likely bottom 10 team but we can create a line match up issue that will at least keep us semi-competitive and in games and relatively entertaining (that we'll likely lose more of than win). We were semi competitive last year, it was a decent year in terms of player development, Which is the most important goal right now. This year we are going in the season with a lot more depth, Jake isn't our only prospect, we've added some young high potential players that had a realistic shot at making the team. I think we had more to gain without signing Gagner than with.. Without him players like Burmistrov, Rodin and Goldy had a chance to prove themselves as NHL players. With Gagner they are now waiting/hoping on an injury for that shot, they will spend the year in and out of the line up getting limited minutes. Hopefully their confidence doesn't disappear our else we will never know the players we are losing out on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: We were semi competitive last year, it was a decent year in terms of player development, Which is the most important goal right now. This year we are going in the season with a lot more depth, Jake isn't our only prospect, we've added some young high potential players that had a realistic shot at making the team. I think we had more to gain without signing Gagner than with.. Without him players like Burmistrov, Rodin and Goldy had a chance to prove themselves as NHL players. With Gagner they are now waiting/hoping on an injury for that shot, they will spend the year in and out of the line up getting limited minutes. Hopefully their confidence doesn't disappear our else we will never know the players we are losing out on. More (prospect) forward depth, sure and Gagner/Burm is a clear improvement over Chaput and Megna. But we replaced Sbisa/Tryamkin with MDZ and Wiercioch and Miller with Nilsson. That doesn't scream 'vastly improved'. But yes, it is about development. I don't share your concerns with development. Guys playing in Utica and having to fight tooth and nail to get on the NHL roster from Utica (or in camp) is in fact GOOD development. Added bonus, we have more assets to trade later for further rebuild pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 58 minutes ago, J.R. said: More (prospect) forward depth, sure and Gagner/Burm is a clear improvement over Chaput and Megna. But we replaced Sbisa/Tryamkin with MDZ and Wiercioch and Miller with Nilsson. That doesn't scream 'vastly improved'. But yes, it is about development. I don't share your concerns with development. Guys playing in Utica and having to fight tooth and nail to get on the NHL roster from Utica (or in camp) is in fact GOOD development. Added bonus, we have more assets to trade later for further rebuild pieces. JB mitigated the loss of Sbisa/Tryamkin where he had little to no options. I agree that Gagner/Burm will likely be an improvement. IMHO the big deal was not resigning Miller which would have taken TOI from Markstrom for another 2 years. Nilsson is a nice addition for a developing club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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