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Sam Gagner | C/W


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5 minutes ago, UticaHockey said:

Yes it is a business and it's up to Jim Benning to make the right business decision to help the Canucks especially in the middle of a rebuild. IMO that decision should be to have Gagner centering a line with two prospects on his wings instead of playing against them. Gagner is making big money this year and is obligated to do what is in the best interest of the organization that is signing his paycheck. If the best interest of the Canucks is for Gagner to be helping develop a couple prospects then that is exactly what he should be doing.

Totally agree, hence the wondering if there is more to the story. Just doesn't make sense ! Perhaps there was a gentleman's agreement when he signed. We don't seem to have the whole story !

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40 minutes ago, UticaHockey said:

Purely speculation.  

he obviously felt strongly enough about it to request being assigned to a different organization ... how do you think he would react if that request was denied?

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16 minutes ago, GoldenAlien said:

All this angst over Gagner is really not worth it.  Whether he plays like an AHL All-Star or a scrub, will have little long term effect on Canucks prospects.

 

Out of Dahlen, Jasek, Lind, Palmu and Gadjovich, Dahlen is probably the only one who might've even played with Gagner.  Gagner would've been 1C on the Comets and it's unlikely that guys like Gadjovich would start on the top line.  Either way, if you can't make the NHL because you played with Kero instead of Gagner, you were never going to be an NHLer, much less a good one.

 

Good NHL players are typically elite at the AHL level.  The type of players who can drive their line, not relying on their linemates to prop them up.  Guys like Kero and Gaudette should be above average AHL centres, if our wingers can't work with that then their potential at the next level is limited anyway.

 

The role of vets and sheltering is much more important in the NHL.  A good prospect should be able to dominate the AHL purely because of their skill level -- they should be a clear step above the average AHLer. But once you get to the NHL, there's no way for you to be a step above the competition.  Your skillset is not elite compared to Sidney Crosby.  At that point, you could really be drowning if you're not put in the right situation.  At the AHL level, if Dahlen is drowning without Gagner, then we have grossly overestimated his potential.

 

Has Goldobin's offensive potential been limited because he didn't play with an AHL All-Star?  I seriously doubt it.  And whether Comets will win more games with Gagner, or he'll help Marlies win games against the Comets, is pretty inconsequential to the Canucks.  Does it really matter if the Marlies have a better record?  Are Canucks prospects not suppose to play against good players? 

 

Gagner on the Comets could've pushed Gaudette to 3C, and probably squashed the chance to see if MacEwan could stick at centre. And let's not pretend Gagner would've been equally fine with either destination.  If you were from Ontario, and you could play in Toronto close to your friends and family, or you could move to a small town that you've never been in upstate New York, what would you want?  The guy's married with two kids, I doubt his wife was jumping at the prospect of moving their family from Vancouver to Utica.  Benning is trying to do him a solid, which helps build Vancouver's reputation as a place that treats players well.  We're in the middle of a rebuild, money and organizational quality are about the only things we have to get free agents right now.

Great post.

 

Welcome to CDC!

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11 minutes ago, GoldenAlien said:

All this angst over Gagner is really not worth it.  Whether he plays like an AHL All-Star or a scrub, will have little long term effect on Canucks prospects.

 

Out of Dahlen, Jasek, Lind, Palmu and Gadjovich, Dahlen is probably the only one who might've even played with Dahlen.  Gagner would've been a 1C on the Comets and it's unlikely that guys like Gadjovich would start on the top line.  Either way, if you can't make the NHL because you played with Kero instead of Gagner, you were never going to be an NHL player anyway, much less a good one.

 

Good NHL players are typically elite at the AHL level.  The type of players who can drive their line, not relying on their linemates to prop them up.  Guys like Kero and Gaudette should be above average AHL centres, if our wingers can't work with that then their potential at the next level is limited anyway.

 

The role of vets and sheltering is much more important in the NHL.  A good prospect should be able to dominate the AHL purely because of their skill level -- they should be a clear step above the average AHLer. But once you get to the NHL, there's no way for you to be a step above the competition.  Your skillset is not elite compared to Sidney Crosby.  At that point, you could really be drowning if you're not put in the right situation.  At the AHL level, if Dahlen is drowning without Gagner, then we have grossly overestimated his potential.

 

Has Goldobin's offensive potential been limited because he didn't play with an AHL All-Star?  I seriously doubt it.  And whether Comets will win more games with Gagner, or he'll help Marlies win games against the Comets, is pretty inconsequential to the Canucks.  Does it really matter if the Marlies have a better record?  Are Canucks prospects not suppose to play against good players? 

 

Gagner on the Comets could've pushed Gaudette to 3C, and probably squashed the chance to see if MacEwan could stick at centre. And let's not pretend Gagner would've been equally fine with either destination.  If you were from Ontario, and you could play in Toronto close to your friends and family, or you could move to a little town that you've never been in upstate New York, what would you want?  The guy's married with two kids, I doubt his wife was jumping at the prospect of moving their family from Vancouver to Utica.  Benning is trying to do him a solid, which helps build Vancouver's reputation as a place that treats players well.  We're in the middle of a rebuild, money and organizational quality are about the only things we have to get free agents right now.

I've watched Canucks prospects first hand for five years now and keep seeing the same thing over and over when they are paired up with plumbers at center.  Whether it's Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Lind or numerous others they all try to take the puck wide and end up skating it into no mans land until they turn it over.  I know that these are habits of young players out of juniors that are used to doing everything themselves but these behaviors are hard to break when playing with the typical unskilled centers that have been wearing the blue in green in Utica every year.  There just have not been enough playmaker centers that can get the puck to the wings when they get open in the scoring areas.  It is a plain and simple fact that I have watched with my own two eyes year after year.

 

It is my opinion, and you are certainly free to disagree with it, that the lack of quality centers in Utica has been holding up the development of many prospects in the AHL.

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1 hour ago, tas said:

having a miserable, resentful gagner poisoning the well of youth with his bitterness because he's stuck playing somewhere he has no desire to be is not in the best interests of the organization. 

Uh, he sounded disappointed but keen to work hard in Utica.   Where do you get your fantasy world version from?

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8 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, he sounded disappointed but keen to work hard in Utica.   Where do you get your fantasy world version from?

I haven't seen any quotes from gagner. just putting 2 and 2 together as far as benning saying he was upset (duh) and the fact that he asked to play closer to home. 

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31 minutes ago, tas said:

I haven't seen any quotes from gagner. just putting 2 and 2 together as far as benning saying he was upset (duh) and the fact that he asked to play closer to home. 

He is nearly 10 years a pro, he has pride but he is a professional so projecting very non-professional behaviour onto him can be unfair...ok?   Put yourself in his shoes, you see your career potentially winding down, you are not yet 30 years old and have been doing nothing else since you could walk.   Of course you would be disappointed but please don't assume he would be a dick about it and purposefully create a bad atmosphere for younger players.   MANY guys at this point in their career find new purpose in mentoring and such.   Sam seems like such a genuine guy and such a nice guy too boot so give him the time to adjust to his new reality and IF he ends up in Utica for any length of time, my guess is he will be a very positive influence much in the way Higgins was reportedly.

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5 minutes ago, UticaHockey said:

I've watched Canucks prospects first hand for five years now and keep seeing the same thing over and over when they are paired up with plumbers at center.  Whether it's Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Lind or numerous others they all try to take the puck wide and end up skating it into no mans land until they turn it over.  I know that these are habits of young players out of juniors that are used to doing everything themselves but these behaviors are hard to break when playing with the typical unskilled centers that have been wearing the blue in green in Utica every year.  There just have not been enough playmaker centers that can get the puck to the wings when they get open in the scoring areas.  It is a plain and simple fact that I have watched with my own two eyes year after year.

 

It is my opinion, and you are certainly free to disagree with it, that the lack of quality centers in Utica has been holding up the development of many prospects in the AHL.

I understand the sentiment, but those players kind of prove my point.  I can't say about Lind, it's too early and the sample size is too small to judge how he'll adjust to pro hockey.  But for Virtanen, he takes the puck wide and skate into no man's land in the NHL.  He's just not a terribly smart player.  He played with the Sedins and he didn't get smarter.  I highly doubt if we upgraded his AHL centre, that Virtanen would've then gone on to score 50pts last year.  In fact, it's much more likely that he'd still be the 20pt player he was. 

 

Same thing with Shinkaruk -- he's had a taste of NHL now, and also played for the Heat.  And he's just not that good of a player.  His centre was Jankowski in 2016-2017, when Jankowski scored 56pts in 64 GP and was named an AHL All-Star.  Shinkaruk, in return, had 35pts in 52 GP, worse than the 39pts in 45 GP he put up with the Comets the year before.  Jankowski is now a legitimate NHLer; Shinkaruk is on his 3rd AHL team.  Shinkaurk's best year in juniors was in 2011-2012, when he scored 91pts playing with Etem.  But Etem had 61G + 46A that year.  Dominant, no doubt, but hardly a playmaker.  

 

The reason these guys haven't hit their projections isn't because they didn't get top notch centres in the AHL.  It's because they haven't been good enough to do so.  I struggle to imagine a scenario where an AHL centre could've turned Shinkaruk into Skinner.  Maybe Virtanen can still become a 40-50pt PWF, but that will be due to his work at the NHL level.   

 

From where I'm sitting, any winger whose NHL potential is compromised purely because they played with Kero or Gaudette,  is not talented enough to be an impact player for the Canucks to begin with.

 

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Positively influencing the development of Dahlen, Lind  Gadjovich, Plamu, etc > Gagner's preference for the Canucks organization.

 

Gagner being in Utica would've given Dahlen an NHL caliber skilled center to work with. Wouldn't that help Dahlen's ability to jump to the NHL? It also would've bumped centers like Kero, Gaudette and/or Gaunce down the lineup. This means that guys like Gadjovich get's to play with Kero/Gaudette instead of Hamilton/Bancks. Banging home an extra couple of goals is good for your confidence whether you're on the 1st line or the 4th line. 

 

Remember all the talk about competition at the Canucks training camp and how players would have to earn their spots? The same thing would apply to Utica here. If Gagner was with them, younger plays (specifically Gaudette) would have to work that much harder to earn things like powerplay time. If Gaudette earns it, you can move Gagner down the lineup without significant consequences since he's not being developed. If Gaudette struggles, you can move him down and bring Gagner up. That dynamic is a good thing for individual players and the strength and depth of the team in general. 

 

I'm not trying the say that having Gagner in Toronto instead of Utica is going to be the difference between whether Dahlen/Gadjovich/Lind/etc. can make the jump to the NHL, but to say it means nothing or would have a negative effect doesn't seem accurate. 

 

Also, I feel like most of the people that are happy Gagner was sent down are the same people that were defending the signing when it happened.

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On 10/2/2018 at 3:34 PM, RetroCanuck said:

Who knows, maybe toronto will end up liking him and trade for him. Decent depth C/W for a contender if retained salary.

Injuries will start occurring and top teams may end up needing the depth as they won't want to ice weak line ups or line ups prospect heavy if they want to stay with the leading teams early on.

 

I won't be surprised if a team trades for Gagner in the next few weeks. I know we won't get much but any extra picks for Benning is great. 

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2 hours ago, GoldenAlien said:

All this angst over Gagner is really not worth it.  Whether he plays like an AHL All-Star or a scrub, will have little long term effect on Canucks prospects.

 

Out of Dahlen, Jasek, Lind, Palmu and Gadjovich, Dahlen is probably the only one who might've even played with Gagner.  Gagner would've been 1C on the Comets and it's unlikely that guys like Gadjovich would start on the top line.  Either way, if you can't make the NHL because you played with Kero instead of Gagner, you were never going to be an NHLer, much less a good one.

 

Good NHL players are typically elite at the AHL level.  The type of players who can drive their line, not relying on their linemates to prop them up.  Guys like Kero and Gaudette should be above average AHL centres, if our wingers can't work with that then their potential at the next level is limited anyway.

 

The role of vets and sheltering is much more important in the NHL.  A good prospect should be able to dominate the AHL purely because of their skill level -- they should be a clear step above the average AHLer. But once you get to the NHL, there's no way for you to be a step above the competition.  Your skillset is not elite compared to Sidney Crosby.  At that point, you could really be drowning if you're not put in the right situation.  At the AHL level, if Dahlen is drowning without Gagner, then we have grossly overestimated his potential.

 

Has Goldobin's offensive potential been limited because he didn't play with an AHL All-Star?  I seriously doubt it.  And whether Comets will win more games with Gagner, or he'll help Marlies win games against the Comets, is pretty inconsequential to the Canucks.  Does it really matter if the Marlies have a better record?  Are Canucks prospects not suppose to play against good players? 

 

Gagner on the Comets could've pushed Gaudette to 3C, and probably squashed the chance to see if MacEwan could stick at centre. And let's not pretend Gagner would've been equally fine with either destination.  If you were from Ontario, and you could play in Toronto close to your friends and family, or you could move to a small town that you've never been in upstate New York, what would you want?  The guy's married with two kids, I doubt his wife was jumping at the prospect of moving their family from Vancouver to Utica.  Benning is trying to do him a solid, which helps build Vancouver's reputation as a place that treats players well.  We're in the middle of a rebuild, money and organizational quality are about the only things we have to get free agents right now.

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33 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Another bruuuttal FA signing.   We are overpaying him to compete against our young guys..that's a total fail.

Wouldn't our young guys playing against NHL calibre competition be potentially better for their development? And who cares if we overpaid, we're not capped out and have no intention of being so for awhile. Does it kind of suck, yeah but sometimes when you step to the plate you strike out. At least they obviously recognize the error and are doing what they can to atone.

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5 hours ago, GoldenAlien said:

But the point of these guys being in the AHL is making the NHL.  If Gagner doesn't do enough to up the chance of Dahlen etc to make the jump, then having him there has little value.  Who cares if Dahlen's stat line has 5 more goals, and Lind feels a bit better about himself in 3 more games, unless that translates into their NHL performance?  

 

Since the AHL is a developmental league, it can't be the meritocracy the NHL is.  That's the problem we had with Chicago.  They put 10 year AHL vets at the top of the lineup, then the rookies are fighting tooth and nail to play 10 minutes. We want to let guys like Gaudette and Dahlen try out the PP and see how they grow into their roles.  We send guys down to the farm because they can get opportunities there that they can't with the big club.  And if it turns out Dahlen isn't good enough to play on Comets' PP at 21 years old, then we shouldn't be expecting him on Canucks' PP at 23.  But we've got to let him try, instead of making him work for a year just to get a look on the PP. 

 

I'm not saying the Comets should be a tire fire so prospects who are destined for the ECHL can walk in and claim a top 6 role.  But that's not what's happening here.  The Comets have a good forward lineup, with a couple good centres.  Look around the league, how many AHL teams have a Sam Gagner?  Most don't, so are all these forward prospects getting held back?

 

There doesn't need to be a connection between defending the signing and happy about the waiver.  Things change, sometimes rapidly.  We could use Gagner when we signed him.  We waived him now because we no longer need him.  However, he shares an agent with other players, and has friends around the league.  Doing right by him builds goodwill.  His agent could be representing the next FA we want, or even the next draft pick we make.      

 

 

The Canucks have a lot of control on the deployment of young players in Utica. If the higher ups want to see Dahlen on the 1st powerplay unit, he'll be on the 1st powerplay unit. If the kids show they deserve those minutes and/or Bennimg wants to see them there, they will be there. All that means is that someone like Gagner would be on the 2nd unit, which is a very formidable unit at the AHL level. 

 

Having our prospects play with players like Gagner in the AHL would provide more than just a couple extra goals. It would allow them to play a style of game that is closer to the NHL. It's the idea that how they get their goals is more important than how many goals they get. Some prospects (Dahlen and Lind particularly in this case) would benefit from playing with someone who can make plays creatively to develop their skill games whereas someone like Gadjovich could grind for some goals anywhere in the lineup. 

 

I agree that it does give Benning some goodwill and it is something to consider, but I'm not sure it was worth it in this case. 

 

If you sign a player for 3 years and then waive them after 1, it's not a great signing. 

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