TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It would be interesting to see what fans beleive a rebuild should be, I tried to do a poll but it kicked me back out to here. IMO the Canucks are only doing what any team not needing to rebuild would do, draft players that might make the team, the same as any of the teams mentioned, some of their drafted players make the team. Let's examine what the Canucks are doing to see if it is any different than what lets say Columbus, Nashville or Chicago is doing now. Each of those team have drafted players over the last three years that are now in their line ups, each of those is not in the same situation as the Canucks they are playoff teams drafting higher or missing the first round all together. Each of those teams have more younger playing in the last 3 years than the Canucks. The Canucks have signed more UFA's than most teams, is that rebuilding or replacing? Most of the above mentioned teams have traded to get "star" level impact players, the Canucks don't have one playing yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 sit. wait. watch. on a more serious note. we need a duchene like player for LW and a quality rhd. whether that be dahlin or perhaps a Trouba. someone with offensive generation who can pair up with juolevi or be better then him. we have some decent quality players this year but lack the high end guys we need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Building Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 More or less what we're doing at the moment, from stop gap UFA's playing alongside rookies to the crazy impatient fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithers joe Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 our rebuild will be when pettersson, dahlin, gaudette, lind, gadjovich, juolevi, virtanen, boeser and demko, are ready to take over the leadership and mantle of the team. those rebuilding pieces are not ready to do that yet. it will probably take 2 more years before these players are ready for prime time. the sedins, edler, ericksson, gagner, vanek, dorsett, horvat, granlund, baertschi, sutter and markstrom are trying to be competitive until the the building pieces are ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead80 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 12 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said: It would be interesting to see what fans beleive a rebuild should be, I tried to do a poll but it kicked me back out to here. IMO the Canucks are only doing what any team not needing to rebuild would do, draft players that might make the team, the same as any of the teams mentioned, some of their drafted players make the team. Let's examine what the Canucks are doing to see if it is any different than what lets say Columbus, Nashville or Chicago is doing now. Each of those team have drafted players over the last three years that are now in their line ups, each of those is not in the same situation as the Canucks they are playoff teams drafting higher or missing the first round all together. Each of those teams have more younger playing in the last 3 years than the Canucks. The Canucks have signed more UFA's than most teams, is that rebuilding or replacing? Most of the above mentioned teams have traded to get "star" level impact players, the Canucks don't have one playing yet. When you've got two players with a combined 21 million towards the cap, you're kind of forced to play younger cheaper players. They're also forced to move out secondary/support players every offseason to stay under the cap. Both have 6 years remaining and are not getting younger. Kane should still have some very good years left, but wouldn't be surprised to see Toews begin declining in a couple years. That contract could look even worse with 3 years remaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucklehead44 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It is a mixed bag really. When Virtanen and McCann made the team along with Hutton (and young guys like Baertschi and Horvat in the lineup) it felt like we were re-building. But then we failed to move any assets for draft picks. Dan Hamhuis should have fetched us something nice. The following year we sign Eriksson which made no sense, but at least we had Stecher make the team. We trade McCann and a pick for Gudbranson which felt we were going backwards but at least Gudbranson was still fairly young. At least that season however we did great at the trade deadline and our defense was really young with the likes of Tryamkin, Hutton, and Stecher. This year I thought we would see a lot more youth. Did not expect signings of Gagner and Vanek. Virtanen isn't a regular despite being far more mature and NHL ready than we he was two years ago. Goldobin got sent down despite proving what he can in the AHL. The first game it seemed like we were passing the reins over to the Horvat line but we've seen Henrik's ice-time go back up above 16 minutes. We could have done without Gagner. Vanek is fine cause we can trade him at the deadline, and then opened up a spot for Goldobin. As for Del Zotto there isn't really anyone on the Comets screaming to be called-up as Chatfield & Holm will need time to adjust to pro hockey in NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodycanuckleheads Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 There should never be a rebuild. Never. Ever. If you are in a position where you basically need to fire everyone and start from scratch - that implies years and years of horrendous mismanagement (and a complete inability to judge players or think-ahead). It should never get that far. You should never have management that's that far removed from reality. It should never get to the point where you need a rebuild. You should have seen the problems coming literally years in advance (and done something about it). So, yeah, a rebuild is irrefutable evidence that your management has been horrifically incompetent for a very, very long time. That's what a rebuild is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jay 22 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Rebuild = Years of tanking and sucking. Accumulation of high draft picks over the years. Building up a respected prospect pool that has not 1 or 2, but many prospects that could have a substantial impact in the NHL. Signing respected veterans to short term deals to not only be potentially shipped out for other assets, but to provide mentoring roles for younger players as well. Right now, I would say the Canucks are slowly starting a true rebuild that will go in full swing once the Twins retire. It could have, and should have been started earlier, but the Loui Eriksson contract a couple years ago shows me that Canucks management never really understood their identity and place in the hierarchy of the Western Conference. That type of contract is the type rebuilding teams need to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, canucklehead80 said: When you've got two players with a combined 21 million towards the cap, you're kind of forced to play younger cheaper players. They're also forced to move out secondary/support players every offseason to stay under the cap. Both have 6 years remaining and are not getting younger. Kane should still have some very good years left, but wouldn't be surprised to see Toews begin declining in a couple years. That contract could look even worse with 3 years remaining. $21mill against the cap? Ohh you are referring to the Hawks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, smithers joe said: our rebuild will be when pettersson, dahlin, gaudette, lind, gadjovich, juolevi, virtanen, boeser and demko, are ready to take over the leadership and mantle of the team. those rebuilding pieces are not ready to do that yet. it will probably take 2 more years before these players are ready for prime time. the sedins, edler, ericksson, gagner, vanek, dorsett, horvat, granlund, baertschi, sutter and markstrom are trying to be competitive until the the building pieces are ready. I agree with you Joe. However, how good will that rebuilt team beam when those young guys do take over? I think that is the key question. Sure the answer is unknown, but we can predict. Considering this young group you listed as the next core has no real elite star players, I suggest our rebuilt team will be mediocre at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jay 22 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, bloodycanuckleheads said: There should never be a rebuild. Never. Ever. If you are in a position where you basically need to fire everyone and start from scratch - that implies years and years of horrendous mismanagement (and a complete inability to judge players or think-ahead). It should never get that far. You should never have management that's that far removed from reality. It should never get to the point where you need a rebuild. You should have seen the problems coming literally years in advance (and done something about it). So, yeah, a rebuild is irrefutable evidence that your management has been horrifically incompetent for a very, very long time. That's what a rebuild is. I think there is plenty of proof these last few years that your bolded has been the case with the Canucks. Maybe not for a very long time, but the late Gillis years and several moments in Benning's tenure have set the Nucks back to where they are now, and have been these last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 26 minutes ago, gurn said: $21mill against the cap? Ohh you are referring to the Hawks. 20 mil for the Canucks for 3 players, 22 million in salary. IMO those teams are re-tooling and there is a difference although it can be similar. Again I believed a Canucks re-tool 4 years ago would have looked like Horvat to replace Kesler and then the next two drafts to replace the Sedins although that would have required the team not improve from their 6th place finish and drafted different players or more and daring work. All teams will need to replace their "core" players at some time usually every 10 years or so, Detroit got lucky in that they had better European scouts and snagged their next core in late round draft picks while trading away their 1rst round picks for established NHL star players. Pittsburgh will hit a wall in the next 4 years as they don't have the "next one's" unless they start trading their vets like Malkin, Benning is just waiting until he is 34 to sign him to a huge retirement contract I am sure. IMO in 2013 the team needed to start re-tooling, looking to replace core players by 2015 the team needed to start a rebuild and each year that goes by without improvement will require more of scorched earth approach and without marked improvement adds another 3 to 4 years to a return to cup contention or waiting until the good teams get old and stupid. 2021 to 2022 now. Or 5 years after the Sedins retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, smithers joe said: our rebuild will be when pettersson, dahlin, gaudette, lind, gadjovich, juolevi, virtanen, boeser and demko, are ready to take over the leadership and mantle of the team. those rebuilding pieces are not ready to do that yet. it will probably take 2 more years before these players are ready for prime time. the sedins, edler, ericksson, gagner, vanek, dorsett, horvat, granlund, baertschi, sutter and markstrom are trying to be competitive until the the building pieces are ready. I admire your optimism that all those players will be NHLer's or some, star players. Surely some will make it but none can be considered as NHL players yet even Boeser is just starting out and has a high upside. Nothing to do with the quote, but what the Nucks seem to be doing is trying to build upon a crumbling foundation already in place and using old hockey standards of it taking at least 5+ years to rebuild/re-tool. That notion has been nullified by the way the game is played (regular season) now with more junior and college players, the good one's, being able to step into the NHL and have an impact immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 You need to acquire new talent and if it's young talent you need to develop it properly. So, you can rebuild your prospect pool through draft and trade but you also need to ensure that the NHL / AHL levels are healthy places for young players to have opportunity to grow without being asked to do too much. You need waves of players - not just a glut of draft picks over a 3 year span. Good leadership and coaching is also important. That also tranfers to Junior, college and overseas players not being thrust into the pros too soon. In short - most of rebuilding is an organizational goal relevant for all clubs at any stage. The difference would be not moving future assets for rentals. Rather, selling rentals for futures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shazzam Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Unfortunately the rebuild has not started yet. Learn from what Toronto did recently. Clean house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 33 minutes ago, Blue Jay 22 said: I think there is plenty of proof these last few years that your bolded has been the case with the Canucks. Maybe not for a very long time, but the late Gillis years and several moments in Benning's tenure have set the Nucks back to where they are now, and have been these last few years. I think Giilis was starting the re-tool/rebuild, his unpopular but bold trade for Horvat to replace Kesler, that trade is still one of the biggest deals on draft day in the last two decades or more. Gillis players are now some of the new corner stone, so far, of the franchise, Tanev (2010), Horvat (2013), Hutton (2012) all these players played in the NHL coming out of junior or college, I wonder what he would have done in 2014? Larkin? Benning had a killer 2014 draft with the exception of JV so far BUT he had the advantage of the Boston scouting reports to draw upon and the Canuck European Scouts. Just abut all the picks that year should end up in the NHL even if not with the Canucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whale Tail Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, shazzam said: Unfortunately the rebuild has not started yet. Learn from what Toronto did recently. Clean house Clean house and get lucky with the lottery ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuardian_ Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, ilduce39 said: you also need to ensure that the NHL / AHL levels are healthy places for young players to have opportunity to grow without being asked to do too much. You need waves of players - not just a glut of draft picks over a 3 year span. Good leadership and coaching is also important. I agree but you also have to get those player into the NHL, I keep going back to TO before the Shanaplan, they had killer AHL teams but the players just didn't get a shot. And this time around TO did hire the best out there they even gave up a draft pick to get Lamorello. Edmonton did close to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Starting with an aging team loaded with ntc's, no youth already on the team, and no real prospect pool, anybody thinking this rebuild would take 3 years was blind to reality. Even high first round picks can be two years away from the NHL. Later round picks are typically two years away from the AHL. Don't see how we could have replaced an entire team in three years starting with nothing. It will be year 5 before we start seeing a rebuilt team taking shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 minute ago, shazzam said: Unfortunately the rebuild has not started yet. Learn from what Toronto did recently. Clean house Except they didn't - Kadri, Bozak, JVR, Gardiner, Reilly, Komarov... most of those are guys in their mid to late 20s or early 30s who have long ties to the team. The Leafs jettisoned Kessel, Phaneuf and some riff raff but they kept a solid group of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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