Nancouver Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, oldnews said: I think you've touched on a few really relevent points. First - we're seeing presently how important and integral it is to have solid, two way forwards - without a gaggle of guys like Sutter, Horvat, Dorsett (to a lesser extent Baertschi) it inevitably effects team defense fairly deeply, and even as the blueline gets a bit healthier, it's still an integrated unit and losses to the forward group or blueline effect the other on all sorts of levels. Second is Hutton's struggles - which have spanned last season and this, regardless of whether he's been paired with Gudbranson, Tanev, Stecher or Tryamkin. I personally think he was very shaky to start last season, which is when his first trial run with a more experienced shutdown partner took place, but also shaky to start this year, even when playing with Tanev....I think there is certainly an element of forward support that can't be separated from struggling to move the puck particularly in one's own zone (all the D have experienced this the past few years on depleted bluelines with depleted forward groups). I'm not sure where I see Hutton being paired tbh - I like him and think he's a good young two way D - perhaps he'll play with Tanev more if/when he sees more time - but I see Pouliot as more decisisve even if he makes the odd error - Pouliot is driving to transition the puck - he's taking more risks and he's been here less time than Hutton has and is less experienced. I hope Hutton regains some of the confidence he had earlier in his career - if he does that it might enable them to make another transition trade, otherwise I'm not sure I see the team moving Edler - he might be here through more transition time. I agree with a lot of this. Hutton looked fantastic his rookie season but seems to have regressed substantially. Pouliot has easily surpassed him on the depth chart and is probably our most exciting young d on the current roster. Ideally edler gets traded at the TDL and we keep Hutton and Guddy but I think it will be either Hutton or Guddy who is traded. As long as they can sign Guddy at a reasonable price I think he's more valuable than Hutton and would much rather see Hutton dealt for a gritty forward prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 48 minutes ago, oldnews said: A good point Alf. And it wasn't just Gudbranson - it was a virtual overhaul. the blueline alone - Gudbranson, Kulikov, Campbell, Mitchell - out - Yandle, Demers (promptly cap dumped), Pysyk brought in. Tom Rowe somehow convinced ownership that Tallon was building the 'wrong' kind of team - that he and some analytics geniuses should be enabled to fix what wasn't broken. Tallon relieved of his GM duties. Gerard Gallant along with him. Rowe et al turn the team into a loser and run the franchise back into a financial rock and a hard place. Looks good on them after what Tallon and Gallant had done for that franchise. Tallon built repeated SCChampions and had that franchise in great shape. Gallant put together a 100+ pt season....and is doing so again with an expansion team. Rowe....don't know or care what he's up to. I just don’t get why the owner made those changes, when (quite clearly) they were building a really strong team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 21 minutes ago, guntrix said: Still waiting for you to back it up, but I know you won't. So I agree, end of convo. Merry Christmas. Sorry kermit, I'm not sure what you want backed up, but I do owe you some credit. 3 hours ago, guntrix said: And yes, he should stay. Quite the turnaround in your awareness. Kudos. On 11/29/2017 at 6:05 PM, guntrix said: Last time we had a one-dimensional guy like that was Tom Sestito... and I'm sure that's a chapter most of this fan base doesn't want to open again. The Sestito comparable to Gudbranson alone (along with umpteen other absurd posts) was grounds enough to consider your troll game to be too weak to bother much with (one up on the VicCity claim that Matt Martin is a better asset than Gudbranson). On 11/30/2017 at 1:10 AM, guntrix said: For half of your suggested $4.5, we could probably go to FA next summer and sign a big guy who can do the exact same thing. Still waiting for you to tell me what he's good at. Still waiting for you to tell me what he's good at. At least you've evolved from laughable Sestito comparables and claiming we can replace Gudbranson for half the cap hit in free agency..... To....'he should stay.' Apparenlty you're not simply a knee-jerk disposition but are able to backtrack - and revise. Funny thing, I've seen you whine so many times, so prematurely, and with such consistency and commitment that I was doubting progress was in the cards - but you've overcome the cookie-cutter complaining and contradicted yourself. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Alflives said: I just don’t get why the owner made those changes, when (quite clearly) they were building a really strong team? Must have been a hard sell from the Rowe camp - to an owner that doesn't really know hockey. Thing is - you see a similar very hard sell fom Canucksmarmy / PITB types around here - with some horrible analyticz 'informing' their hockey 'intelligence', which they sell as clearly superior to that dumb bumpkin Benning. And ironically, the Florida landscape is populated with a bunch of Vancouver kid-analyticz imports..... I'm just thankful this franchise hasn't been sold on it - the day the JD Burke's et al make this team's asset decisions is the day I go back into waiting for a regime change (the last time was the Mike Keenan era). This team utilizes analytics - they simply have a far better understanding of their limits and usage - corsi-gazing just doesn't cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, oldnews said: Must have been a hard sell from the Rowe camp - to an owner that doesn't really know hockey. Thing is - you see a similar very hard sell fom Canucksmarmy / PITB types around here - with some horrible analyticz 'informing' their hockey 'intelligence', which they sell as clearly superior to that dumb bumpkin Benning. And ironically, the Florida landscape is populated with a bunch of Vancouver kid-analyticz imports..... I'm just thankful this franchise hasn't been sold on it - the day the JD Burke's et al make this team's asset decisions is the day I go back into waiting for a regime change (the last time was the Mike Keenan era). This team utilizes analytics - they simply have a far better understanding of their limits and usage - corsi-gazing just doesn't cut it. You deserve plus 1 million for this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush17 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Nancouver said: I agree with a lot of this. Hutton looked fantastic his rookie season but seems to have regressed substantially. Pouliot has easily surpassed him on the depth chart and is probably our most exciting young d on the current roster. Ideally edler gets traded at the TDL and we keep Hutton and Guddy but I think it will be either Hutton or Guddy who is traded. As long as they can sign Guddy at a reasonable price I think he's more valuable than Hutton and would much rather see Hutton dealt for a gritty forward prospect. i 100% agree. Pouliot is perfectly crafted for today's nhl game. I would say Stecher is similar in style but lacks the size and crisp decisions pouliot is excellent at. Pouliot imo will be a top 3 d man for us when we begin to seriously push. he makes smart decisions in short time and makes his forwards better with his transition. mdz is also pretty well suited for todays game but what you see is what you get. mdzs good games are good and his bad games are medicore. biega plays well with our style of play better then others but his intensity has to be at 100% all the time to remain super effective. i believe biega deserves a top 6 role on this team. hutton i feel has wheels and can escape his zone well but he lacks purpose and direction once hes out. if he wants to be super effective and play that way i feel he needs to be far more physical so his positive value to his squad is more then get the puck and psss it up the ice. adding a lot more physicality to his game would make opposing forwards more hesitant to try and fly by him. hutton lacks what pouliot has. crisp clean decision making in short time and tight spaces. juolevi is praised for similar hockey iq and decision making. we got a good future 1-2 on the left side with those too. Stech would be a good 4 or 5 on this team when we get good. (imo of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 On 12/21/2017 at 4:08 AM, Provost said: I stated that he is likely to get traded... So, I put out my position. I backed it up with multiple sources and how I arrived at my belief. You stated your belief as if it had factual basis, so I asked you for what made you conclude it. You produced what convinced you, and it turns out that none of it had any real evidence, just speculation by the media without any factual substance whatsoever. If that's all it takes for you to arrive at your conclusions, that's great it works for you. I've heard all the same banter, and due to the lack of any substance backing it determined that the claim is not based on anything factual. Standards of proof are different, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancouver Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, Rush17 said: i 100% agree. Pouliot is perfectly crafted for today's nhl game. I would say Stecher is similar in style but lacks the size and crisp decisions pouliot is excellent at. Pouliot imo will be a top 3 d man for us when we begin to seriously push. he makes smart decisions in short time and makes his forwards better with his transition. mdz is also pretty well suited for todays game but what you see is what you get. mdzs good games are good and his bad games are medicore. biega plays well with our style of play better then others but his intensity has to be at 100% all the time to remain super effective. i believe biega deserves a top 6 role on this team. hutton i feel has wheels and can escape his zone well but he lacks purpose and direction once hes out. if he wants to be super effective and play that way i feel he needs to be far more physical so his positive value to his squad is more then get the puck and psss it up the ice. adding a lot more physicality to his game would make opposing forwards more hesitant to try and fly by him. hutton lacks what pouliot has. crisp clean decision making in short time and tight spaces. juolevi is praised for similar hockey iq and decision making. we got a good future 1-2 on the left side with those too. Stech would be a good 4 or 5 on this team when we get good. (imo of course) Yes I'm admittedly very high on pouliot, he seems to process the game at a high rate and his outlet passes are crisp tape to tape. He also excells in the offensive zone with his puck handling and decision making for the most part. Pouliot is young to boot and only going to improve, pretty sure he's going to be a core piece going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: You stated your belief as if it had factual basis, so I asked you for what made you conclude it. You produced what convinced you, and it turns out that none of it had any real evidence, just speculation by the media without any factual substance whatsoever. If that's all it takes for you to arrive at your conclusions, that's great it works for you. I've heard all the same banter, and due to the lack of any substance backing it determined that the claim is not based on anything factual. Standards of proof are different, that's all. Well it does work for me. It obviously works for you too since you provided zero evidence of any of your statements. If rampant hypocrisy and logical failings work for you that is fine... I just choose to conduct myself differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 hour ago, oldnews said: Must have been a hard sell from the Rowe camp - to an owner that doesn't really know hockey. Thing is - you see a similar very hard sell fom Canucksmarmy / PITB types around here - with some horrible analyticz 'informing' their hockey 'intelligence', which they sell as clearly superior to that dumb bumpkin Benning. And ironically, the Florida landscape is populated with a bunch of Vancouver kid-analyticz imports..... I'm just thankful this franchise hasn't been sold on it - the day the JD Burke's et al make this team's asset decisions is the day I go back into waiting for a regime change (the last time was the Mike Keenan era). This team utilizes analytics - they simply have a far better understanding of their limits and usage - corsi-gazing just doesn't cut it. Interesting comments from the team in that they say they've used analytics for quite a while, but evidently they either arrive at different conclusions OR more likely, they use it selectively and in proper moderation. So far seems to have been a decent balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, Provost said: Well it does work for me. It obviously works for you too since you provided zero evidence of any of your statements. If rampant hypocrisy and logical failings work for you that is fine... I just choose to conduct myself differently. And yet more gaslighting. No doubt that'll bring more pluses from the serial anti-fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guntrix Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Jesus. Talk about writing a whole lot of nothing. 1 hour ago, oldnews said: Quite the turnaround in your awareness. Kudos. Not sure if you're willfully ignorant or just plain dense. I've stated numerous times that I'm fine with Guddy at the right price. The problem is that I don't think he'll get signed to a price reflective of what he brings to the table. I'm sure I'll have to repeat this a few pages down. 1 hour ago, oldnews said: The Sestito comparable to Gudbranson alone (along with umpteen other absurd posts) was grounds enough to consider your troll game to be too weak to bother much with (one up on the VicCity claim that Matt Martin is a better asset than Gudbranson). I mentioned Sestito with the intention of blasting Gudbranson's one-dimentionality. Heck, it's in that very same post you quoted. But yeah, I don't expect anything less from the spin master himself. 1 hour ago, oldnews said: [chest-thumping gibberish] I'm still waiting for you to put forth an adequate argument for the following sentence that doesn't include two tweets: 9 hours ago, oldnews said: players like Luongo and Mitchell were publicly calling out their management for making a stupid move. But then again, it's my fault for trying to explain to a grown-ass man that a "WTF" and some classic Strombone humour isn't really solid evidence. Waiting for the inevitable change of subject and sassy tirade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 I just came in to this thread for some salt to rim my Margarita glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickyoursedin Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Nancouver said: I agree with a lot of this. Hutton looked fantastic his rookie season but seems to have regressed substantially. Pouliot has easily surpassed him on the depth chart and is probably our most exciting young d on the current roster. Ideally edler gets traded at the TDL and we keep Hutton and Guddy but I think it will be either Hutton or Guddy who is traded. As long as they can sign Guddy at a reasonable price I think he's more valuable than Hutton and would much rather see Hutton dealt for a gritty forward prospect. I think Benning missed a huge opportunity in trading Hutton before the expansion draft. Nashville rumours of unprotecting Neal. They probably would have swapped Neal for a young dman with potential that didn’t need to be protected. Huttons value was at a high for sure then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said: And yet more gaslighting. No doubt that'll bring more pluses from the serial anti-fans. Yeah you are a classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. It would never occur to you that people were giving pluses because you were just wrong and being an ass. Naturally in your mind they must be anti-fans and inferior to you. Gaslighting is a specific form of psychological torture and has an actual definition. Someone who you kept attacking pointing out that you are wrong and backing it up isn’t gaslighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancouver Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, flickyoursedin said: I think Benning missed a huge opportunity in trading Hutton before the expansion draft. Nashville rumours of unprotecting Neal. They probably would have swapped Neal for a young dman with potential that didn’t need to be protected. Huttons value was at a high for sure then! Mmm possibly but he didn't have pouliot yet so Hutton wasn't as expendable. Could sure use neals point production that's for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VIC_CITY Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 4 hours ago, oldnews said: The Sestito comparable to Gudbranson alone (along with umpteen other absurd posts) was grounds enough to consider your troll game to be too weak to bother much with (one up on the VicCity claim that Matt Martin is a better asset than Gudbranson). Martin hits like a truck and hits often. He also fights often. That's the difference between him and Gudbranson. He's a mean SOB, night in, night out and after this year he'll be doing it at roughly half the cost of Gudbranson. So ya, Martin plays the role much, much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Guds is a needed style player for the team. That said, 3.5 3.9 tops. Gut feeling is he wants to test the market. He would garner a second and a fourth in my opinion. /just not enough offence there to warrant a first in return or a 4+ a year contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86Viking Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 would trading for luke schenn make some sense if we move or intend to move Guddy? Schenn surely would cost less to re sign and is more suited as a bottom pair guy to play a similar role to a hal gill or roman polak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 21 minutes ago, Yotes said: would trading for luke schenn make some sense if we move or intend to move Guddy? Schenn surely would cost less to re sign and is more suited as a bottom pair guy to play a similar role to a hal gill or roman polak Schenn is UFA next year, so we could just wait till UFA, he can definitely play physical but the problem with him is he's a terrible skater. Where Guddy can play 5/6 and move up to a 3/4, schenn will never be more than a 5/6. KB3 is UFA again next year, and could be cheap to resign. But preferable I think we need to start bringing the push back from upfront, I think new leadership will help in that area as a player like Bo will lead by example. Jake is really starting to carve out being an impact player, Hopefully sutter can stay healthy, add in Gaudette, a possibly Kane and we don't look near as soft. And nothing would make me more happy than for us to go after Foote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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