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The Lack of Toughness and Pushback is Concerning


Junkyard Dog

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I am finding that the Canucks tend to get pushed around rather easily. I am sure everyone else has noticed it, especially with the loss of Dorsett and Gudbranson.

 

Still though if these are the only two guys we have moving forward then we should be worried. As it stands our only other physical forwards are Gaunce and Virtanen, which doesn't say much. If we have to rely on these young guys, who're just establishing themselves, to stick up for teammates and keep other teams players in check we are going to have a bad time.

 

The point I am trying to make is that we need more. Dorsett and Gudbranson are not enough. Both of their futures here are clouded as well. Perhaps we need to be spending our cap on guys who can play tough checking game rather than these "skilled" forwards. Players that can play hockey and play tough aren't exactly cheap and easy to come across though. You need cap space or to trade for these types of players in order to address this need quickly and we should be trying to address this need quickly.

 

Which brings me to my next points.

 

Should we re-sign the Sedins next season? They take up two spots and ice time that could be spent elsewhere. It is a good but tough question. Perhaps they retire? Do we see any longevity in Sven Baertschi? What if he asks for Horvat money, is he worth that kind of price? With his value at a high perhaps a move can be made to acquire a different type player that would benefit us more moving forward.

 

We're really feeling the loss of Tryamkin to say the least. It is what it is though. I understand why there are rumors of us wanting Kane. He addresses two things we need in a player. The ability to score and play hard. Perhaps he can be had in the off-season but perhaps not.

 

I fear that if we don't address this need quickly our key players like Boeser may develop bad tendencies as a result of intimidation. That a player like him might fade away once teams start being hard on him mainly due to the fact that he has no one to back him up and stick up for him. Maybe my fears are silly and misplaced. This is just what I think.

 

This is an area we need to address, throughout our lineup. How would you address it?

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This has been the problem since we traded our leadership in Kesler and Bieksa. Sedins made fine captains in that time with 100 point seasons and all but the truth is that Kesler and Bieksa made the heavy lifting and made sure that the team had pushback and get angry if we lose. 

 

I dont think no one can deny that in beginning of the season when both Dors and Gud were healthy our team played with much more heart and freedom. You saw guys smile on the bench even if we were tied and still win. Now without them our swagger is gone its not coincidence.

 

I completely agree with you and im also concerned that Sedins "if you hit me I will turn my other cheek" attitude will rub on our next core In Horvat Boes etc. Who would teach them that the right attitude is "if you hit me I will rip your @#$ head off"... well we dont have Benn.

 

We have this season ok depth but what kind of depth?  Burmistrov and gaunce are guys who can eat minutes without hurting our team but wont generate offence. In my mind these are the players I would never sign. Cause guys who you dont expect to score but be reliable should be all Jordan Nolan Ryan White kind a guys. (Just mentioned them cause they were available) Grinders who make big hits and bring energy and safe environment for guys like Boes and guys. Maybe im just too old but I think you shouldnt never go into a match without a legit fighter in lineup like we did today.

 

And how to fix our toughness problem?

1. Resign Guddy to multiyear deal and make him  "A"

2.  Replace all fringe bottom 6 players next year with grinders who play on the edge and protect our skill guys.

3. Let the Sedins retire at end of season.

4. Now when Baertschis value is up try to swap him with similar top 6 guy who plays physical example Hartman. And use Hutton in package if necessary we have Pouliot now and Juolevi next year.

5. Dont sign Kane and see number 4.

 

 

 

 

 

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Pushbacks and toughness will not happen until Sedin is gone and a new captain with more skill and toughness will exhibit more.  Captain holds more weights than rest of the players on the team.  Toughness vanished since Naslund was named a captain.  That was more than 15 years of that Swedish Captain and just one year of Luongo combines the deplete of the toughness within the team.   It's so scarce that we holds a few toughness but they are middleweights.   The Canucks forgot what the toughness is like.  

 

Also we tried to show toughness and we were slapped with 7 minutes of 5 on 3 PK for two games in a row expounded the problem with this league.  We are the only team that suffer this punishment by the ref in the history of the league.  Only a new commissioner that decided to remove the instigator rule will bring the toughness back on this team.  If I were one, I would do this as my first order of the business and also to improve the road schedule for all Western clubs to a manageable level.  

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What the point of the farm if you aren’t going to use the depth  for different roles.isnt that what the farm is for.

skill get hurt call up skill grit gets hurt call up grit.

call ups have be pressbox fillers that’s it. 

Lebate can  atleast throw a hit and not fall down and he willing to stick up for his teammates. 

Lebate and goldobin over brumistrov and gagner. 

Geez biega would be a more effective forward in a checking role  than some of the bottom six.

I’ve never been a fan of “turn the other cheek”hockey because it doesn’t work other teams take it for what it is weakness

 

 

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I agree with this, but it is hard to find a feisty and imposing guy who has enough skill to keep up in this league.  Generally they end up being not particularly skilled, and then fall down to your 3rd or 4th line or lower pairing.  Ie: Dorsett and Gudbranson.

 

What ultimately you want is a guy who can find chemistry and at least somewhat keep up on an upper line (Ferland), or a guy who has legitimate skills (Young Chara, Young Lucic). The former is rare, and the latter is even more rare.

 

I think this is why many on CDC have their eyes trained directly on Kane.  I'm not again going to get into the reason why I don't think he is the best choice but I can see why the draw exists.

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6 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I agree with this, but it is hard to find a feisty and imposing guy who has enough skill to keep up in this league.  Generally they end up being not particularly skilled, and then fall down to your 3rd or 4th line or lower pairing.  Ie: Dorsett and Gudbranson.

 

What ultimately you want is a guy who can find chemistry and at least somewhat keep up on an upper line (Ferland), or a guy who has legitimate skills (Young Chara, Young Lucic). The former is rare, and the latter is even more rare.

 

I think this is why many on CDC have their eyes trained directly on Kane.  I'm not again going to get into the reason why I don't think he is the best choice but I can see why the draw exists.

Gadjovich seems to be the style of player the OP is talking about, and he also seems to have at least as much skill than Ferland at this point in his development (a 5th round pick) so he might end up fitting the bill nicely. Doesn't seem to be afraid of anyone, at least in the OHL, and is also a 40+ goal guy like Ferkie was in the CHL.

 

 

 

 

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We have an overload of the same type of player.The skill/finesse type. I think Gagner needs to sit (WHO CARES IF HE HAS A FAT CONTRACT) 

This team needs some pushback from somewhere. Same with Burmistrov. Bring up Labate and put Bulldog Biega at foward.

Green has to be blind not to see that. 

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38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Gadjovich seems to be the style of player the OP is talking about, and he also seems to have at least as much skill than Ferland at this point in his development (a 5th round pick) so he might end up fitting the bill nicely. Doesn't seem to be afraid of anyone, at least in the OHL, and is also a 40+ goal guy like Ferkie was in the CHL.

 

 

 

 

It’s good that we have some in the pipeline but what happens till then, boeser and Horvat just have to eat elbows and fight for themselves. The bottom six need to be the guys that answer either with hits and phyical play or with fists. In my books bouncing of a guy falling down and taking yourself out of the play isn’t a hit for so I’m not sure how gagner gets credited with hits. 

Its not a new problem and every year it seems this team gets stuck with a bottom six that is as physically threating as my chihuahua. 

Sutter dorsett are the two hardest guys to play against in the bottom six. It isn’t A coincidence  they are both injured from doing the job of what six guys should be doing. Same goes for the back end with Gud out the smallest d man is our most phyical stecher and biega. A lot of puck watching d.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

Gadjovich seems to be the style of player the OP is talking about, and he also seems to have at least as much skill than Ferland at this point in his development (a 5th round pick) so he might end up fitting the bill nicely. Doesn't seem to be afraid of anyone, at least in the OHL, and is also a 40+ goal guy like Ferkie was in the CHL.

Agreed - though we aren't likely going to know for 2-3 years if he's capable of the role.  

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5 minutes ago, combover said:

It’s good that we have some in the pipeline but what happens till then, boeser and Horvat just have to eat elbows and fight for themselves. The bottom six need to be the guys that answer either with hits and phyical play or with fists. In my books bouncing of a guy falling down and taking yourself out of the play isn’t a hit for so I’m not sure how gagner gets credited with hits. 

Its not a new problem and every year it seems this team gets stuck with a bottom six that is as physically threating as my chihuahua. 

Sutter dorsett are the two hardest guys to play against in the bottom six. It isn’t A coincidence  they are both injured from doing the job of what six guys should be doing. Same goes for the back end with Gud out the smallest d man is our most phyical stecher and biega. A lot of puck watching d.

 

 

can't really argue with the need for it, just don't know where its going to come from outside of drafting. Could be free agency but a lot of CDC lost their marbles when Dorsett was signed. We'd likely have to overpay a bit again to land a guy like this again, but it would be worth it. 

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We're a rebuilding team. Rome was not built in a day. If we had more grit on the team, people would be lamenting the lack of skill (just like they were a couple years ago when Benning was supposedly all about 'meat and potatoes' and everyone was complaining about that).

 

A team with an appropriate amount of skill/grit (and skilled grit) is a contender. We're not there yet. Patience.

 

We have Horvat, we have Virtanen developing, Gaunce, Gudbranson and Dorsett (when back from injury). Gadjovich should be along in the next couple years, with maybe MacEwan and to add to that and 'skilled pests' like Gaudette, and Lind. Also, perhaps Tryamkin back in a few years.

 

I'm all for signing Kane this summer for this exact reason though. Bottom 6 gritty players are one thing, a guy who can bring that in your top 6 is another. And other than Horvat, that doesn't presently exist on our team or in our prospect pool.

 

I'd also be game for shipping Edler with 50% retained to TBL for Cal Foote as @Ghostsof1915 mentioned.

 

As for OP's questions:

 

-IMO, no we shouldn't re-sign the twins. Give +/- $6m of that $14m to Evander.

-We keep Sven until one of Goldobin, Dahlen or otherwise take that spot. Then move him to fill other holes or for more picks/prospects to keep the pipeline stocked.

 

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1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

can't really argue with the need for it, just don't know where its going to come from outside of drafting. Could be free agency but a lot of CDC lost their marbles when Dorsett was signed. We'd likely have to overpay a bit again to land a guy like this again, but it would be worth it. 

We have Archie and lebate in the farm wouldn’t that be an improvement over brumistrov and gagner? Especially with both dor and sutter out.Both played well in the preseason. 

I think Archie would need to sign but still he knows his role and plays it well.

They could atleast fill that gap till someone better was acquired either through trade ufa or draft.

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, combover said:

We have Archie and lebate in the farm wouldn’t that be an improvement over brumistrov and gagner? Especially with both dor and sutter out.Both played well in the preseason. 

I think Archie would need to sign but still he knows his role and plays it well.

They could atleast fill that gap till someone better was acquired either through trade ufa or draft.

 

 

 

 

I guess I didn't expect as much out of Gagner as others, certainly not any toughness.He's decent on face offs and is reliable defensively most of the time, pretty disappointing on the PP though (not sure how much of that is attributable to Brown tho).

 

Burmy tho I have no time for. For a guy supposedly on his last chance contract I'm extremely underwhelmed, I'd be more than happy to see Archie given a chance there, or Goldobin even though that doesn't solve the pushback issue. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, combover said:

We have Archie and lebate in the farm wouldn’t that be an improvement over brumistrov and gagner? Especially with both dor and sutter out.Both played well in the preseason. 

I think Archie would need to sign but still he knows his role and plays it well.

They could atleast fill that gap till someone better was acquired either through trade ufa or draft.

 

 

 

 

Archie's face is presently broken FWIW and no, neither are as good of hockey players as Gagner (or Burmistrov). They'd have more grit but that's it. Everything else is a downgrade.

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3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We're a rebuilding team. Rome was not built in a day. If we had more grit on the team, people would be lamenting the lack of skill (just like they were a couple years ago when Benning was supposedly all about 'meat and potatoes' and everyone was complaining about that).

 

A team with an appropriate amount of skill/grit (and skilled grit) is a contender. We're not there yet. Patience.

 

We have Horvat, we have Virtanen developing, Gaunce, Gudbranson and Dorsett (when back from injury). Gadjovich should be along in the next couple years, with maybe MacEwan and to add to that and 'skilled pests' like Gaudette, and Lind. Also, perhaps Tryamkin back in a few years.

 

I'm all for signing Kane this summer for this exact reason though. Bottom 6 gritty players are one thing, a guy who can bring that in your top 6 is another. And other than Horvat, that doesn't presently exist on our team or in our prospect pool.

 

I'd also be game for shipping Edler with 50% retained to TBL for Cal Foote as @Ghostsof1915 mentioned.

 

As for OP's questions:

 

-IMO, no we shouldn't re-sign the twins. Give +/- $6m of that $14m to Evander.

-We keep Sven until one of Goldobin, Dahlen or otherwise take that spot. Then move him to fill other holes or for more picks/prospects to keep the pipeline stocked.

 

I agree with most of what your saying but even a few years ago when the team was lacking skill we weren’t a hard team to play the meat and potatoes were mostly just potatoes,  Chaput megna shore vey ect, not a lot of physicality in any of the fillers.

when benning was hired I was under the impression we would be getting bigger stronger and more aggressive harder to play and in fact the opposite has happened.you can play an fast upbeat brand and still have effective third and fourth liners.

I get the league has gone to a younger faster brand but there are plenty of guys and teams that play a hard hitting game.

 

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1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Archie's face is presently broken FWIW and no, neither are as good of hockey players as Gagner (or Burmistrov). They'd have more grit but that's it. Everything else is a downgrade.

I’d take lebates physicality over team worst  gagner -9 and 5.8 shoting % his 9points isn’t very impressive either considering all the ice and pp time he gets.

So it would be an even easier choice as far as brumistrov is concerned especially in the very limited minutes he gets. 

At the very least he should have been given a look when all the grit left the lineup via injury.

 

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