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Linden and his Position the problem for GMJB


Arrow 1983

do we need someone else in management  

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I was wondering if anyone else might view GMJB contract issue the same way I do. At the end of this topic I will give my solution to the problem I believe the Canucks have in their management alignment. 

 

First of all I am a big fan of Trevor Linden. However, his position as president of hockey ops might stand in the way of us retaining JB as GM. I am a big Fan of JB and I believe we should keep him in the position of GM. First, his drafting capabilities are among the tops in the league. Brock Boeser at 23rd pick overall is a steal. Elias Pettersson looks great and his ability to see that EP had the highest ceiling in that draft (time will tell if he can get there). Olli Juolevi, I personally still have high hopes for him but I might be more realistic about this pick then most. In my mind he is not the next Nicklas Lidstrom but more of an Olli Maatta, with more upside. Jake Virtanen was probably his biggest gamble but if he becomes more consistent in his play, Jake will be able to do the things Brock can not ie, that coast to coast charge to the front of the net, I wish people would understand that is something you can't teach that's a pure power forward goal some thing you would see from Todd Bertuzzi. If Brock went coast to coast he would snipe it at the dot like Naslund would do. but Virtanen Did it like Bert would have. However this is not about Jake it's about GMJB, those are just his first round draft picks but his later round picks are what are most impressive the problem is that these picks have not seen NHL time so it is only potential we get to see. I don't think many could disagree with the statement are prospect pool is deeper than it has ever been. As later picks these picks take time to develop but I do believe that 3-4 of these picks will have a part in the teams future either as role players or playing larger parts.

Some might argue that JB is not the greatest at trades I will not go through them all, but I do think most of us could agree that some have been steals others have been equal and some might have even been flops. Lets look at the flops Linden Vey for a second. A second we could give up cause he dumped Jason Garrison on TBL for a second and dumped a load of cap as well. Some might say Sutter more due to his cap hit then the trade itself. Sutter is our second best Defensive Offence man on our team only to Bo, his current injury is a prime example to show just how important Sutter is. I would argue Sutter to Bo is our Manny Malhotra to Kesler was. Malhotra fullest season with the Canucks was Keslers best season ever and one of the Canucks greatest seasons in their history.

 

So now to the Point of this topic. IMO it would be devastating to the teams short and long term future to lose JB as GM especially if this team sees improvements in their position in the standings in the coming years. here is way. As the team improves it will become even more important to have a guy who can draft good in the later rounds and later in to the first round to maintain a good team so when are window opens up again to win the Cup we can keep it open longer then 1-2 years. Otherwise as we have seen we will get one chance and begin the 12-16 year cycle all over again. We will need to replenish the lost ufas with young cheap and capable prospects like Chicago has been able to do or Detroit was able to do for so long. Cause GMMG way is just not the way to sustain success (mortgage the future and draft poorly).

 

Why we could lose JB. Simply, because Trevor Linden brings a face to the Canucks but I'm not sure what experience he brings to evaluating trades, assessing draft prospects or convincing top ufa's to come to this team. TL may be the buffer between GM and ownership and is the guy who hire and fires people but what other purposes does he serve as President of Hockey Ops. 

 

The only way you bring a new guy in is to remove one of these guys from their position. Do you think for example a Doug Armstrong or a Ken Holland is going to come here if his title doesn't include either GM or President. I am one of those people that do believe that this team needs to bring in one experienced guy to supplement what we currently have. Secondly this new guy has to have the experience of the guys like the two mentioned above and not to make a change for a sake of making a change. Third I do believe the new guy must be given the reins of the team (full control to make trades and sign ufa's) and GMJB to have last word on draft picks and top adviser to trades and ufa signings. That means that TL has to be given a new position I suggest CEO of hockey ops he has no say in the day to day management of the hockey club but his primary responsibilities are, buffer between management and ownership, and hiring and firing of the gm and presidents of hockey ops and most importantly be the face of the franchise non player.

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Hard to read and confusing.   I am trying to figure out if you are concerned about losing Benning due to Linden or if you want Benning gone but don't think the other guys you want (Holland and Armstrong mentioned) would work well with Linden unless he has a new title....do I have it right?    I can figure out you think Linden is an issue and needs to be moved away from hockey decisions.

 

If you saw any of the footage of the 2017 draft you would not have seen Linden anywhere near the table nor part of the discussion prior to picks being made.   What makes you then believe he is more involved in any other decision?   Benning has spoken to media but today, for one example, Benning is in Buffalo and Linden is in Vancouver so if Vancouver media were going to talk to someone it was Linden.

 

Again, not really sure of your point other than you clearly think Linden is not capable of making strong hockey personnel decisions.    Right?

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18 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Hard to read and confusing.   I am trying to figure out if you are concerned about losing Benning due to Linden or if you want Benning gone but don't think the other guys you want (Holland and Armstrong mentioned) would work well with Linden unless he has a new title....do I have it right?    I can figure out you think Linden is an issue and needs to be moved away from hockey decisions.

 

If you saw any of the footage of the 2017 draft you would not have seen Linden anywhere near the table nor part of the discussion prior to picks being made.   What makes you then believe he is more involved in any other decision?   Benning has spoken to media but today, for one example, Benning is in Buffalo and Linden is in Vancouver so if Vancouver media were going to talk to someone it was Linden.

 

Again, not really sure of your point other than you clearly think Linden is not capable of making strong hockey personnel decisions.    Right?

Yes and no. I do think he is part of the discussions I don't think he has the experience to make the decisions and JB might not be the best guy to learn from because this is JB first time as GM and the things JB does best (draft is something I don't think you can teach is a gut feeling). 

I don't believe TL is a traditional president of hockey ops. 

IF John McCaw had a guy like TL in management McCaw's ownership might have been a little smoother for example. TL position in management is like a figure head that's how I kind of see it.

 

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the ownership is happy with the youth and drafting, they know the current on ice product sucks.  Benning is stocking cupboards.   We got a lot to look forward to.  People who honestly thought we were going to make the playoffs this year or even the next are confused.  

 

My only major issue with Benning was signing Eriksson to a terrible contract.  He is a bust.    As well I was not keen on Juolevi, but if we get a top 4 out of him then i can live with it.  

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1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Hard to read and confusing.   I am trying to figure out if you are concerned about losing Benning due to Linden or if you want Benning gone but don't think the other guys you want (Holland and Armstrong mentioned) would work well with Linden unless he has a new title....do I have it right?    I can figure out you think Linden is an issue and needs to be moved away from hockey decisions.

 

If you saw any of the footage of the 2017 draft you would not have seen Linden anywhere near the table nor part of the discussion prior to picks being made.   What makes you then believe he is more involved in any other decision?   Benning has spoken to media but today, for one example, Benning is in Buffalo and Linden is in Vancouver so if Vancouver media were going to talk to someone it was Linden.

 

Again, not really sure of your point other than you clearly think Linden is not capable of making strong hockey personnel decisions.    Right?

Holland - President

Linden - Vice President

Benning - GM

 

Can't see how a well respected guy like Holland would hurt by joining our management group? No dis to Linden at all but adding experience like that to this management group would be great. Just like adding another center which makes Horvat better.

 

Sorry Cloutier but Change up goalie coach. 

 

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If we let JB go that imo would be a mistake. He's learned a lot and if Aquas let him go now other team would reap the fruits of his hard work and knowledge he gained here. Let him do his thing for another 3 or 4 years. When he starts getting attached to his prospects then you bring in a finisher. 

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Sometimes Benning makes some head scratching moves but his drafting ability is clearly impressive. Keep him.

 

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Linden is not really in charge of team management as much as he is overseeing everything Canucks related as a whole.

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Linden's job is basically a poster boy/ambassador...and I think he has done a good job.  I think he's informed on hockey decision, but doesn't really have much say.  If anyone is going to fire JB or any management staff, the order will be given from Aquilini and ask Linden to take care of it and start searching for the next gm.  Same as Shanny is doing with the Leafs, but all hockey decision are made by Lamoriello and his staff.

 

If you bring someone in charge and give him the reins....why would JB stay here???  He would basically be demoted back to Head scout.   He'll let his contract expire and start searching for a new job in the offseason, and there will be lots of interest since right now he's riding the Boeser train.

 

Keep Linden, re-sign JB to a 4-5 year deal, that's pretty much the only thing I see happening.

 

IMO if you replace Linden, you keep the exact same description, and you're just replacing the face on the posters.  That's pretty much it.

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as far a JB , hes made some good trades and someone questionable ones he drafting good. I do believe jims team is setup better for the long term. (And I haven’t exactly been his biggest fan).

but from the owners perceptive jim spend 22mill(ufas total) last off season and 36+million (ericson)the year before on players that he though would  help fill the area and help the team win, the Arena is still empty and the team has been better but is second to last in the west yes there’s been a lot of injuries again but I’m pretty sure we could have accomplished second to last without another 22mill in expenses while revenue is the same or decline.

 

While I’m not always a fan of this ownership they will spend to win, so I can’t say I blame if their putting out 70mill and the team isn’t winning or isn’t selling tickets that they hold the guy who spent it responsible.ownership isn’t exactly known for their patience.

This for me is one of the reasons I think Jim might be in trouble and why he hasn’t been re upped, 

 

linden is a loyal guy he hired jim there would have to be a very sound arguement for him not to be resigned.

We really don’t know any of the dynamic Behind closed doors but I’m sure it’s not all flowers and lollipops when the team struggles on and off the ice yet  spends to the moon.

 

Thens theirs the otherside maybe Jim doesn’t want to come back.maybe he’s asking for a lot of money and term

who knows.

The only thing for sure is the Vancouver  media will love this story and the endless speculation and theories.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

The only way you bring a new guy in is to remove one of these guys from their position. Do you think for example a Doug Armstrong or a Ken Holland is going to come here if his title doesn't include either GM or President. I am one of those people that do believe that this team needs to bring in one experienced guy to supplement what we currently have. Secondly this new guy has to have the experience of the guys like the two mentioned above and not to make a change for a sake of making a change. Third I do believe the new guy must be given the reins of the team (full control to make trades and sign ufa's) and GMJB to have last word on draft picks and top adviser to trades and ufa signings. That means that TL has to be given a new position I suggest CEO of hockey ops he has no say in the day to day management of the hockey club but his primary responsibilities are, buffer between management and ownership, and hiring and firing of the gm and presidents of hockey ops and most importantly be the face of the franchise non player.

 

what you're actually suggesting is a reduction of Jim's autonomy and putting him in a situation to be in conflict with the new person. A new person can't have 'full control' then run and ask Jim if its OK. Doesn't make sense and i doubt that you'd get a quality person to take on a role like that. 

 

Linden was brought in to be a trusted bridge between ownership and the GM. I don't think the Aqulini's want to have a repeat of their experience with Gillis, so TL is there as a known quality hockey person that ownership has that provides a single point of contact for all things Canucks. Why would the Aquilini's want to change that? Nothing in what you've said addresses that point. 

 

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