Linden and his Position the problem for GMJB

[aGENT]

With all the problems the Canucks already have in the midst of a rebuild and injury riddled season, I have no idea why some fans feel the need to invent new ones...

[alfstonker]

9 hours ago, luckylager said:

Wow, big post! Ding!?

 

Why isn't this a public vote? I want names, dammit!

Let me help you out. I voted to get rid of TL.

I do not believe, given the place we are in that any other PoH would have left it up to the Sedins to dictate when they left the roster. 

[tas]

I think jim and trevor should be safe in their positions, but they need some experienced support and leadership around them. 

 

ken holland - ceo of canucks sports and entertainment. the same role as bob nicholson with the oilers. he's there to be a general advisor is every area and to lend legitimacy  and weight to the operation. reports to the aquilinis. 

 

trevor linden - president of hockey ops. the guardian of the franchise. makes sure everyone underneath him is working towards making the team what it should be. reports to holland. 

 

jim benning - general manager. creator of the vision. his job is to create the plan to steer the ship towards consistent success and make sure everyone beneath him executes. reports to linden.

 

john weisbrod - assistant gm (player personnel). oversees pro and amateur scouting staffs, player development staff. reports to benning.

 

someone (larry gilman would have been great but that ship has sailed), maybe chris gear - assistant gm (business/finance/marketing). oversees the dollars and cents including player contracts. reports to benning. 

 

jonathan wall - senior director, hockey ops and analytics (his current role). reports to both weisbrod and the other assistant gm. the 3 work together to find players that fit the vision. 

[King Heffy]

56 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Let me help you out. I voted to get rid of TL.

I do not believe, given the place we are in that any other PoH would have left it up to the Sedins to dictate when they left the roster. 

They have no movement clauses.  Any other management you care to bring in instead would be contractually bound to do precisely that.

[Sbriggs]

10 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I was wondering if anyone else might view GMJB contract issue the same way I do. At the end of this topic I will give my solution to the problem I believe the Canucks have in their management alignment. 

 

First of all I am a big fan of Trever Linden. However, his position as president of hockey ops might stand in the way of us retaining JB as GM. I am a big Fan of JB and I believe we should keep him in the position of GM. First, his drafting capabilities are among the tops in the league. Brock Boeser at 23rd pick overall is a steal. Elias Pettersson looks great and his ability to see that EP had the highest ceiling in that draft (time will tell if he can get there). Olli Juolevi, I personally still have high hopes for him but I might be more realistic about this pick then most. In my mind he is not the next Nicklas Lidstrom but more of an Olli Maatta, with more upside. Jake Virtanen was probably his biggest gamble but if he becomes more consistent in his play, Jake will be able to do the things Brock can not ie, that coast to coast charge to the front of the net, I wish people would understand that is something you can't teach that's a pure power forward goal some thing you would see from Todd Bertuzzi. If Brock went coast to coast he would snipe it at the dot like Naslund would do. but Virtanen Did it like Bert would have. However this is not about Jake it's about GMJB, those are just his first round draft picks but his later round picks are what are most impressive the problem is that these picks have not seen NHL time so it is only potential we get to see. I don't think many could disagree with the statement are prospect pool is deeper than it has ever been. As later picks these picks take time to develop but I do believe that 3-4 of these picks will have a part in the teams future either as role players or playing larger parts.

Some might argue that JB is not the greatest at trades I will not go through them all, but I do think most of us could agree that some have been steals others have been equal and some might have even been flops. Lets look at the flops Linden Vey for a second. A second we could give up cause he dumped Jason Garrison on TBL for a second and dumped a load of cap as well. Some might say Sutter more due to his cap hit then the trade itself. Sutter is our second best Defensive Offence man on our team only to Bo, his current injury is a prime example to show just how important Sutter is. I would argue Sutter to Bo is our Manny Malhotra to Kesler was. Malhotra fullest season with the Canucks was Keslers best season ever and one of the Canucks greatest seasons in their history.

 

So now to the Point of this topic. IMO it would be devastating to the teams short and long term future to lose JB as GM especially if this team sees improvements in their position in the standings in the coming years. here is way. As the team improves it will become even more important to have a guy who can draft good in the later rounds and later in to the first round to maintain a good team so when are window opens up again to win the Cup we can keep it open longer then 1-2 years. Otherwise as we have seen we will get one chance and begin the 12-16 year cycle all over again. We will need to replenish the lost ufas with young cheap and capable prospects like Chicago has been able to do or Detroit was able to do for so long. Cause GMMG way is just not the way to sustain success (mortgage the future and draft poorly).

 

Why we could lose JB. Simply, because Trevor Linden brings a face to the Canucks but I'm not sure what experience he brings to evaluating trades, assessing draft prospects or convincing top ufa's to come to this team. TL may be the buffer between GM and ownership and is the guy who hire and fires people but what other purposes does he serve as President of Hockey Ops. 

 

The only way you bring a new guy in is to remove one of these guys from their position. Do you think for example a Doug Armstrong or a Ken Holland is going to come here if his title doesn't include either GM or President. I am one of those people that do believe that this team needs to bring in one experienced guy to supplement what we currently have. Secondly this new guy has to have the experience of the guys like the two mentioned above and not to make a change for a sake of making a change. Third I do believe the new guy must be given the reins of the team (full control to make trades and sign ufa's) and GMJB to have last word on draft picks and top adviser to trades and ufa signings. That means that TL has to be given a new position I suggest CEO of hockey ops he has no say in the day to day management of the hockey club but his primary responsibilities are, buffer between management and ownership, and hiring and firing of the gm and presidents of hockey ops and most importantly be the face of the franchise non player.

The pole is alittle incomplete. What we would like is to leave TL and JB in there positions and hire an assistant GM to help Benning with the GM part of his job without striping him of his title

[BLU3GR33NBL00D]

10 hours ago, Arrow 1983 said:

I was wondering if anyone else might view GMJB contract issue the same way I do. At the end of this topic I will give my solution to the problem I believe the Canucks have in their management alignment. 

 

First of all I am a big fan of Trever Linden. However, his position as president of hockey ops might stand in the way of us retaining JB as GM. I am a big Fan of JB and I believe we should keep him in the position of GM. First, his drafting capabilities are among the tops in the league. Brock Boeser at 23rd pick overall is a steal. Elias Pettersson looks great and his ability to see that EP had the highest ceiling in that draft (time will tell if he can get there). Olli Juolevi, I personally still have high hopes for him but I might be more realistic about this pick then most. In my mind he is not the next Nicklas Lidstrom but more of an Olli Maatta, with more upside. Jake Virtanen was probably his biggest gamble but if he becomes more consistent in his play, Jake will be able to do the things Brock can not ie, that coast to coast charge to the front of the net, I wish people would understand that is something you can't teach that's a pure power forward goal some thing you would see from Todd Bertuzzi. If Brock went coast to coast he would snipe it at the dot like Naslund would do. but Virtanen Did it like Bert would have. However this is not about Jake it's about GMJB, those are just his first round draft picks but his later round picks are what are most impressive the problem is that these picks have not seen NHL time so it is only potential we get to see. I don't think many could disagree with the statement are prospect pool is deeper than it has ever been. As later picks these picks take time to develop but I do believe that 3-4 of these picks will have a part in the teams future either as role players or playing larger parts.

Some might argue that JB is not the greatest at trades I will not go through them all, but I do think most of us could agree that some have been steals others have been equal and some might have even been flops. Lets look at the flops Linden Vey for a second. A second we could give up cause he dumped Jason Garrison on TBL for a second and dumped a load of cap as well. Some might say Sutter more due to his cap hit then the trade itself. Sutter is our second best Defensive Offence man on our team only to Bo, his current injury is a prime example to show just how important Sutter is. I would argue Sutter to Bo is our Manny Malhotra to Kesler was. Malhotra fullest season with the Canucks was Keslers best season ever and one of the Canucks greatest seasons in their history.

 

So now to the Point of this topic. IMO it would be devastating to the teams short and long term future to lose JB as GM especially if this team sees improvements in their position in the standings in the coming years. here is way. As the team improves it will become even more important to have a guy who can draft good in the later rounds and later in to the first round to maintain a good team so when are window opens up again to win the Cup we can keep it open longer then 1-2 years. Otherwise as we have seen we will get one chance and begin the 12-16 year cycle all over again. We will need to replenish the lost ufas with young cheap and capable prospects like Chicago has been able to do or Detroit was able to do for so long. Cause GMMG way is just not the way to sustain success (mortgage the future and draft poorly).

 

Why we could lose JB. Simply, because Trevor Linden brings a face to the Canucks but I'm not sure what experience he brings to evaluating trades, assessing draft prospects or convincing top ufa's to come to this team. TL may be the buffer between GM and ownership and is the guy who hire and fires people but what other purposes does he serve as President of Hockey Ops. 

 

The only way you bring a new guy in is to remove one of these guys from their position. Do you think for example a Doug Armstrong or a Ken Holland is going to come here if his title doesn't include either GM or President. I am one of those people that do believe that this team needs to bring in one experienced guy to supplement what we currently have. Secondly this new guy has to have the experience of the guys like the two mentioned above and not to make a change for a sake of making a change. Third I do believe the new guy must be given the reins of the team (full control to make trades and sign ufa's) and GMJB to have last word on draft picks and top adviser to trades and ufa signings. That means that TL has to be given a new position I suggest CEO of hockey ops he has no say in the day to day management of the hockey club but his primary responsibilities are, buffer between management and ownership, and hiring and firing of the gm and presidents of hockey ops and most importantly be the face of the franchise non player.

As a fellow Trevor, you lost me when you spelled it 'Trever'.

[PhillipBlunt]

Fact is, Benning is far better at his job than Linden is at his. 

 

Too much has been made of Linden's "presser" yesterday. Benning should be re-signed, as he's an unbelievably shrewd and methodical assessor of talent. 

 

Linden gave nothing to the local mouth-breathing hacks, and as usual, they ran with it, inserting assumptions where there were no facts. 

[luckylager]

59 minutes ago, alfstonker said:

Let me help you out. I voted to get rid of TL.

I do not believe, given the place we are in that any other PoH would have left it up to the Sedins to dictate when they left the roster. 

What he tells the media and the real discussions he's had with players are probably different stories.

 

I liked the way TG was deploying them prior to Bo and Balls going IR, figured that would be the status quo for this year and next. Given the injury situation they're forced to try and turn back the clock. It hasn't been pretty, but would Chaput and Megna be an upgrade? I say no

[Nucker 67]

Management is the least of the Canucks problems.

 

1. Injuries

2. Goaltending

3. Defense

4. Goal scoring (Boeser excluded)

5. Special Teams

[Shirotashi]

With the success of Boeser and Pettersson and I would argue Tryamkin, the only real option would be to fire Linden,

but why? We all have adjusted to the fact that we are rebuilding why fire anyone until we see this new crop come in?

Its like the harvest is still waiting to be harvested and your like "nah bad crop burn it all and shoot the farmers." lol.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Fact is, Benning is far better at his job than Linden is at his. 

 

Too much has been made of Linden's "presser" yesterday. Benning should be re-signed, as he's an unbelievably shrewd and methodical assessor of talent. 

 

Linden gave nothing to the local mouth-breathing hacks, and as usual, they ran with it, inserting assumptions where there were no facts. 

Seems he's doing just fine then 

[coastal.view]

1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

Management is the least of the Canucks problems.

 

1. Injuries

2. Goaltending

3. Defense

4. Goal scoring (Boeser excluded)

5. Special Teams

this has been a significant problem the last 3 to 4 seassons

we lead or are close to leading the league in this area

why ?

what is the organization going to do about it ?

[189lb enforcers?]

12 hours ago, AlwaysACanuckFan said:

Mark me down for keeping it the same. This franchise is heading in the right direction.

Sloooowly, I agree. 

 

[appleboy]

I wonder if Benning is the one holding off on resigning. Maybe our owners just meddle more then what he likes. Maybe this build on the fly was never his idea but the agenda of the owners. Maybe he is pushing for more control then he has had.

We all like to think that no GM would ever turn down a job but there is a chance that Benning is just not sure he wants to continue dealing with our owners.

[Bo fan]

I think people are reading way to much into  the Linden interview -

I hope ownership gives Linden and Benning another 4 years to see the fruits of their labour  on the ice surface in Vancouver

Hope I live long enough to see the day

[tas]

the only reason linden even did the media availability was because the team hasn't made either he or benning available very much this year, jeff paterson requested benning but he wasn't in the building so he got linden instead. 

[alfstonker]

3 hours ago, King Heffy said:

They have no movement clauses.  Any other management you care to bring in instead would be contractually bound to do precisely that.

Except Linden said they would decide when to retire or move. That takes them into a new contract and so none of what you said would apply. My point is I'm fine that they were allowed to the end of this season but I am uncomfortable with any PoHO who would allow THEM to decide whether they are re-signed or not.

[appleboy]

1 hour ago, Shirotashi said:

With the success of Boeser and Pettersson and I would argue Tryamkin, the only real option would be to fire Linden,

but why? We all have adjusted to the fact that we are rebuilding why fire anyone until we see this new crop come in?

Its like the harvest is still waiting to be harvested and your like "nah bad crop burn it all and shoot the farmers." lol.

It won't be the fans that make that choice. It will be the owners. So from their point of view.

1] Guddy has not worked out and now is a pending UFA. (Two assets lost)

2] Virtanen pick was not a strong one. (Ehlers plus others)

3] Juolevi was the first D man taken and will probably turn out to be a solid pick. But it looks like he was not the best D man taken.

4] LE signing looks like an albatross.

 

The owners have the benefit of hindsight and will not take into consideration the amount that they influence the out come. My biggest worry is if they don't bring him back or he decides to not return. Then dose that mean that we are back into a win at all cost scenario?  Who will they hire? Will they give the new GM time to rebuild properly? Will they find someone who is a veteran or will they bring in a green horn who they think they can micro manage again. I think this management micro manages big time.

[Alflives]

45 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I wonder if Benning is the one holding off on resigning. Maybe our owners just meddle more then what he likes. Maybe this build on the fly was never his idea but the agenda of the owners. Maybe he is pushing for more control then he has had.

We all like to think that no GM would ever turn down a job but there is a chance that Benning is just not sure he wants to continue dealing with our owners.

We will see about your idea, when trades happen nearer to the TDL.  If JB is the one holding back on resigning, then would he be allowed to make trades?  If he leaves, does he ho work for Chia again?  No trades with the Oilers until JB signs an extension?

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, appleboy said:

It won't be the fans that make that choice. It will be the owners. So from their point of view.

1] Guddy has not worked out and now is a pending UFA. (Two assets lost)

2] Virtanen pick was not a strong one. (Ehlers plus others)

3] Juolevi was the first D man taken and will probably turn out to be a solid pick. But it looks like he was not the best D man taken.

4] LE signing looks like an albatross.

 

The owners have the benefit of hindsight and will not take into consideration the amount that they influence the out come. My biggest worry is if they don't bring him back or he decides to not return. Then dose that mean that we are back into a win at all cost scenario?  Who will they hire? Will they give the new GM time to rebuild properly? Will they find someone who is a veteran or will they bring in a green horn who they think they can micro manage again. I think this management micro manages big time.

Seats are empty, team’s value is down, they are (likely) losing money.  I wonder if these factors influence ownership too, and maybe more than hockey stuff?