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brock rocks.. nhl all star mvp


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1 minute ago, Tyndall2 said:

Okay we got a legit hockey player along with Horvat and several up and comers.  Let's start building a team!  Let the slow, ineffective players go at the trade deadline and continue this youth plan.  

Why would other teams want to give the Canucks picks, or prospects for slow ineffective players? Charity?

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Some pretty darn good players have been drafted well down the list.  Also, getting rid of some of the hanger on players would open up spots to get our younger prospects ice time.  Or, we good use a few more bags of pucks if that is all they might be offering.  The other thing that needs to change with this team is the culture and leadership.  I love the Sedins but they have run their course.

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Winning NHL All Star Game MVP doesn't mean a whole lot, but only one other player in the history of the ASG has won MVP as a rookie... Mario Lemieux in 1985.

Boeser imo has had more impact as a rookie over Mathew Barzal, a quick break down of their point analysis:

Primary Offence
Barzal has 51 points in 50 games. 17 of his 35 assists are secondary assists, which accounts for 33.333% of all of Barzal's points.
Boeser has 43 points in 46 games. 10 of his 19 assists are secondary assists, which accounts for 23.3% of all of Boeser's points.
Win: Boeser

Opportunity
Barzal has an average TOI/Game of 17:21
Boeser has an average TOI/Game of 17:02
Win: Tie

Consistency
Barzal has 3 instances where he's gone 1 game without a point, 2 instances where he's gone 2 games without a point, 3 instances where he's gone 3 games without a point and 1 instance where he's gone 5 games without a point.
Boeser has 7 instances where he's gone 1 game without a point, 4 instances where he's gone 2 games without a point, and 1 instance where he's gone 3 games without a point.
Win: Barzal

Impact
Barzal has 10 multi point games accounting for 29 points (56.8% of all points), and are represented in a 7-2-1 record in those games.
Boeser has 9 multi point games accounting for 24 points (55.8% of all points), and are represented in a 8-1-0 record in those games.
Win: Boeser

So with Boeser winning 2 out of 4 categories, and a tie in 1, right now I would say Boeser should be the leading candidate for the Calder. Take into account the intangible aspects of who each of these guys has to play with at their disposal, number of games (kind of off set by Barzal's 0 points in 1st 5 games of the season), I think it's clear that Boeser has more impact as a rookie, and has proven so far to be more proficient in his rookie year. The impact category is close, but given that NYI is a far better team at the moment, I would expect the Canucks to have more losses as a team when Boeser has a multi point game.

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10 hours ago, VanGnome said:

Winning NHL All Star Game MVP doesn't mean a whole lot, but only one other player in the history of the ASG has won MVP as a rookie... Mario Lemieux in 1985.

Boeser imo has had more impact as a rookie over Mathew Barzal, a quick break down of their point analysis:

Primary Offence
Barzal has 51 points in 50 games. 17 of his 35 assists are secondary assists, which accounts for 33.333% of all of Barzal's points.
Boeser has 43 points in 46 games. 10 of his 19 assists are secondary assists, which accounts for 23.3% of all of Boeser's points.
Win: Boeser


Opportunity
Barzal has an average TOI/Game of 17:21
Boeser has an average TOI/Game of 17:02
Win: Tie

Consistency
Barzal has 3 instances where he's gone 1 game without a point, 2 instances where he's gone 2 games without a point, 3 instances where he's gone 3 games without a point and 1 instance where he's gone 5 games without a point.
Boeser has 7 instances where he's gone 1 game without a point, 4 instances where he's gone 2 games without a point, and 1 instance where he's gone 3 games without a point.
Win: Barzal

Impact
Barzal has 10 multi point games accounting for 29 points (56.8% of all points), and are represented in a 7-2-1 record in those games.
Boeser has 9 multi point games accounting for 24 points (55.8% of all points), and are represented in a 8-1-0 record in those games.
Win: Boeser


So with Boeser winning 2 out of 4 categories, and a tie in 1, right now I would say Boeser should be the leading candidate for the Calder. Take into account the intangible aspects of who each of these guys has to play with at their disposal, number of games (kind of off set by Barzal's 0 points in 1st 5 games of the season), I think it's clear that Boeser has more impact as a rookie, and has proven so far to be more proficient in his rookie year. The impact category is close, but given that NYI is a far better team at the moment, I would expect the Canucks to have more losses as a team when Boeser has a multi point game.

That first analysis is flawed.  Boeser is a goalscorer, so he obviously has the advantage in primary offense, because he'll always have more goals than Barzal.  Another way to see this is Boeser's secondary assist represent 52% of his total assists while Barzal is 49%.  Plus I don't believe in secondary assist less meaningful than primary.   Yes sometimes you get the crappy assist (like a goalie) on some goals...but sometimes that secondary assist is also the one thats creates the 2 on 1 which is more important than the primary.

 

The fourth one should be considered a tie too IMO, % and record are way too close to say one has more impact than the other.  To be thorough, we should consider home/away games, calibre of opposition, TOI, PP time these games, who's in net #1 or backup, etc.

 

Not saying Barzal is more impactful than Boeser, but that it's look like you chose stats that gives Boeser an edge to prove your point.

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Amazing how much a rookie can impact a team.  He's been a legit sniper, a credible locker room presence and a kid that's humble to boot.  He's the future of this organization.  Outside of not being a C, he's probably the closest thing to Naslund that I've seen in a while (with the scoring touch).  

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15 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Really?..Didn't watch. Been boycotting the ASG since about 1983!

Because of the John Garrett vs. Wayne Gretzky issue? 

That said, I guess you missed the 2002 All-Star Game as well in which there was also a obvious injustice. Markus Naslund played for Team World in their 8-5 win over the Team North America. Naslund scored 2 goals and 1 assist, and that tied him in the scoring lead with North America's Eric Daze who had identical stats. But the MVP award was given to Daze instead, even though the tiebreaker should go to Naslund given the fact that he played in the winning team and scored the game winning goal late in the 3rd period. But apparently, early voting screwed Naslund as the voting was done 5 minutes before the game ended and before Naslund showed his heroics. Talk about a huge injustice!:(

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3 hours ago, timberz21 said:

That first analysis is flawed.  Boeser is a goalscorer, so he obviously has the advantage in primary offense, because he'll always have more goals than Barzal.  Another way to see this is Boeser's secondary assist represent 52% of his total assists while Barzal is 49%.  Plus I don't believe in secondary assist less meaningful than primary.   Yes sometimes you get the crappy assist (like a goalie) on some goals...but sometimes that secondary assist is also the one thats creates the 2 on 1 which is more important than the primary.

 

The fourth one should be considered a tie too IMO, % and record are way too close to say one has more impact than the other.  To be thorough, we should consider home/away games, calibre of opposition, TOI, PP time these games, who's in net #1 or backup, etc.

 

Not saying Barzal is more impactful than Boeser, but that it's look like you chose stats that gives Boeser an edge to prove your point.

I don't agree with you re: Secondary assists. Even if it wasn't a nothing assist like a goalie, or some innocuous play, primary assists have more direct impact on a play than does a secondary assist. Unless its a bang - bang - bang play on a PP or something, most secondary assists are just regular hockey plays that just so happen to coincide with a goal as the play develops.

Hockey is not like chess, where moves can be calculated ahead of time, its much more fluid, and spur of the moment than I think you're giving it credit for. Granted there ARE times where a secondary assist is meaningful and contributes directly to the goal that was scored, but that would be the exception, not the rule.

I'll concede that Impact is maybe too close to call, as you point out there are several other factors at play. I still give the nod as of right now to Boeser simply given the disparity between the caliber of teams each player respectively finds himself on. Vancouver isn't Phoenix bad, but doesn't benefit from the depth that the Islanders have. Had both teams been equal in terms of skill, depth, health I would argue that Boeser would be far ahead of Barzal.

The fact that Boeser has practically been given lemons and continues to stay neck and neck with Barzal and his well of opportunity in terms of who he gets to play with is without question impressive.

Basically, I think it will come down to one of two things due to the eastern media and Barzal simply getting more exposure:

1. If Barzal exceeds Boeser's end of season point total by 10+ Barzal will win
2. If Boeser scores 40 goals, Boeser will win

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A great achievement. There are a lot of scouts with red faces, all those that ranked him so far down the draft rankings.

 

There goes the cap space, another 212 g's, if he keeps this up, which he likely will, the team will owe the league next year. The bonuses I mean, isn't there bonuses for 25, 30 and 35 goals as well as points? Up to 3 mil over the rookie contract? It looks like Boeser will hit them all. Good for him and the team competiveness but it could make TDL day interesting if management hasn't planned for the additional cap hit. 

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2 hours ago, VanGnome said:

I don't agree with you re: Secondary assists. Even if it wasn't a nothing assist like a goalie, or some innocuous play, primary assists have more direct impact on a play than does a secondary assist. Unless its a bang - bang - bang play on a PP or something, most secondary assists are just regular hockey plays that just so happen to coincide with a goal as the play develops.

Hockey is not like chess, where moves can be calculated ahead of time, its much more fluid, and spur of the moment than I think you're giving it credit for. Granted there ARE times where a secondary assist is meaningful and contributes directly to the goal that was scored, but that would be the exception, not the rule.

I'll concede that Impact is maybe too close to call, as you point out there are several other factors at play. I still give the nod as of right now to Boeser simply given the disparity between the caliber of teams each player respectively finds himself on. Vancouver isn't Phoenix bad, but doesn't benefit from the depth that the Islanders have. Had both teams been equal in terms of skill, depth, health I would argue that Boeser would be far ahead of Barzal.

The fact that Boeser has practically been given lemons and continues to stay neck and neck with Barzal and his well of opportunity in terms of who he gets to play with is without question impressive.

Basically, I think it will come down to one of two things due to the eastern media and Barzal simply getting more exposure:

1. If Barzal exceeds Boeser's end of season point total by 10+ Barzal will win
2. If Boeser scores 40 goals, Boeser will win

Seriously, I've spent the last 30 minutes looking for the stats of primary vs secondary assists and cannot find anything.  I don't even know where to look.  I figure if it was such an important measure, it would be easily accessible and published.

 

I've wanted to compare your theory with Crosby, Stamkos, etc. to see if their "primary offense" numbers were better than Boeser, which I don't think they will be due to the # of goal/pts ratio.

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1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

Seriously, I've spent the last 30 minutes looking for the stats of primary vs secondary assists and cannot find anything.  I don't even know where to look.  I figure if it was such an important measure, it would be easily accessible and published.

 

I've wanted to compare your theory with Crosby, Stamkos, etc. to see if their "primary offense" numbers were better than Boeser, which I don't think they will be due to the # of goal/pts ratio.

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/barzama01/scoring/2018

Crosby's secondary assists account for 29% of his 55 points
Stamko's secondary assists account for 31% of his 58 points
Ovechkin's secondary assists account for 20% of his 53 points
Kucherov's secondary assists account for 26% of his 63 points
Kessel's secondary assists account for 24% of his 58 points

So of these comparisons, only Ovechkin has better primary offensive numbers than Boeser in all of these comparisons. Granted there are far more pure offensively talented guys in the league but Boeser is certainly among the upper echelon.

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21 minutes ago, VanGnome said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/barzama01/scoring/2018

Crosby's secondary assists account for 29% of his 55 points
Stamko's secondary assists account for 31% of his 58 points
Ovechkin's secondary assists account for 20% of his 53 points
Kucherov's secondary assists account for 26% of his 63 points
Kessel's secondary assists account for 24% of his 58 points

So of these comparisons, only Ovechkin has better primary offensive numbers than Boeser in all of these comparisons. Granted there are far more pure offensively talented guys in the league but Boeser is certainly among the upper echelon.

That's what I thought, goalscorer will always have lower % for this particular stats due to weighted factor of goals.  I think it would be a good measure, to compare two goalscorers or two playmaker....but to compare Boeser and Barzal, Boeser will always be on top in that category. 

 

Like I said I'm not arguing Barzal is better or more effective than Boeser, actually I agree with you that Boeser is more impactful, just not based on that measure.  I think Boeser is a more unique player and guys like Barzal can be found a little more easily.

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