Tyler Madden | C

[Ray_Cathode]

1 hour ago, Dats hockey said:

Honestly NCAA seems to have been better for our players looking at the way Comet play and sit young guys repeatly makes me think they’re a franchise more interested in winning now and not developing the young guns.

McEwan, Brisbois, Sautner, Jasek, Gaudette, Gaunce, Dahlen, Demko, and lately Lind, all seem to be developing nicely, as was Juolevi - while he was healthy.  So I have no idea what you are basing your theory on.  McEneny was developing very well down there too until a serious injury sidetracked his development- but, with a plus 6 and four points in his last seven games, he seems to be back on track, too.  That leaves you Gadjovich and Palmu to complain about, and Palmu seems a little immature if his complaints about the coaching are correctly reported.  Virtanen was sent down to Utica because he showed up to the Canucks vastly out of shape - he was in serious need of some tough love, and got it.  As a result, he is a much better NHL player.  Teaching fitness and conditioing- as well as defensive play are common lessons taught in the minors.  Jake came back from his experience much better able to play - and he has no complaint about his treatment in Utica, quite the contrary.

[Coconuts]

It'd be interesting to see him sign but I wouldn't be opposed to him staying put either, he's clearly got a good thing going down there and should have plenty of time to hit the gym and develop physically. We'll see where he's at closer to the end of his season but I'm not sure he's ready for the AHL yet.

[Dats hockey]

7 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

McEwan, Brisbois, Sautner, Jasek, Gaudette, Gaunce, Dahlen, Demko, and lately Lind, all seem to be developing nicely, as was Juolevi - while he was healthy.  So I have no idea what you are basing your theory on.  McEneny was developing very well down there too until a serious injury sidetracked his development- but, with a plus 6 and four points in his last seven games, he seems to be back on track, too.  That leaves you Gadjovich and Palmu to complain about, and Palmu seems a little immature if his complaints about the coaching are correctly reported.  Virtanen was sent down to Utica because he showed up to the Canucks vastly out of shape - he was in serious need of some tough love, and got it.  As a result, he is a much better NHL player.  Teaching fitness and conditioing- as well as defensive play are common lessons taught in the minors.  Jake came back from his experience much better able to play - and he has no complaint about his treatment in Utica, quite the contrary.

Not really in the mood to point out the obvious, NHL Success.... also why are you mention players who have had NCAA careers?

 

Also a lot of those players mentioned above hasn’t even played a full season with Utica.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Dats hockey

[The_Rocket]

Idk man people keep saying that our prospects were developed in the NCAA and not in Utica but the reality is they were developed in multiple leagues throughout their careers. there are very few players who play in the AHL in the D+1 or D+2 years. And player development goes well beyond players in Utica. Ryan Johnson stays in contact with the prospects in every league, communicating with them and their plans for them, their work out regimes, what they want them to work on, etc. I mean, the Canucks just invited Jett woo out to Vancouver and have him meet the team! That’s a huge part of development!

 

Most players in the CHL can’t go to the AHL until their D+3 year unless they were born in between September 15th and December 31st (like Lind and Gadjovich). Even then, they have to be good enough to turn pro, or they will still spend their D+2 year in the CHL (like brassard).

 

For NCAA players, those kids usually have made the choice to go that route before they are even drafted. Going to the NCAA means you get a education of some sort (2 year diploma or 4 year degree if you stick with it) and if your parents have saved in an RESP or something you can access that money. Plus, it’s ibviously great development (lots of gym and practice time for college players). So it’s normal for NCAA players to play a couple years in college. 

 

European players are interesting. Someone like joulevi, who is from Finland, still has to abide by the CHL agreement and couldn’t play in the AHL last season so he had to be loaned to play in Liiga. If not for the agreeement, it’s very likely he would have been in Utica last season as well. For players like pettersson, dahlen,  etc. who played their junior years in Europe, I think you really have to appreciate that these are young kids, mostly teenagers or maybe 20 Yr olds, moving to the other side of the world where they speak a different language and have different customs. Expecting them to come to the AHL immidiatly after being drafted is overestimating the impact of moving to a new country. Yeah some kids come over earlier to play in the CHL (joulevi, palmu for example) but not all kids can do it right away.

 

This is the case around the league. Players usually don’t start in the AHL until they are 20-21 years old. So complaining that the players are being developed in the NCAA or in the CHL and not in Utica is stupid. The AHL is a pro hockey league, probably the 3rd or 4th best league in the world. Playing in the AHL is not for learning how to play hockey but for learning how to play as a pro. 

 

Could Utica develop player better? Probably. 

 

But arguing that Demko, Goldobin, baertschi, virtanen, markstrom, and gaudette weren’t developed in Utica because they played in other leagues first or they only played 1 season or half a season in the AHL is stupid. The AHL’s existence is based entirely around players like that. 

 

Very few players play 3-4 years in the AHL and then turn into successful NHL players. It is much more common to spend 2 or fewer there. 

[Fred65]

The question remains is development in Utica a plus. If we say most players have only a short stay in the AHL then I guess you have to ask is it worth having a farm team for any thing other than park a few ( so I'm told with little hope ) to fill in for injuries. Having a cup of coffee in Utica does little to add value, it seems. I would think the majority of players show thier best between 17-21. If they haven't shown high skill level by that point chnaces are they won't. Few NCAA players graduate from 4 years of hockey and move into the NHL ( of the hundreds playing NCAA maybe 5-9 FA play NHL after graduation/year)  How many players 22 or older mover from Utica to the NHL. Does spending 2-3 years in the AHL offer a good route to the NHL ? I tend to believe some teams do manage their farm teams better but even then it's a limited return. Maybe the answer is larger NHL rosters, agreements with EU leagues. But frankly we have a large roster of player in the AHL with little likelihood of success. As we speak it strikes me that the AHL is for the most part a myth

[Rob_Zepp]

18 hours ago, Fred65 said:

Come on man they had a cup of coffee ( apart from Markstrom and frankly goalies have guaranteed starts and coaches assigned dirctly for them ) Certainly Virtanen spent a season but when he arrived back in Vcr he was no different than when he went ot Utica, his numbers were poor and his first year back in Vcr was very poor too, it was only this year he's shown any ability, forget his time in Utica his development stalled down there, in short I don't see Utica in the Virtanen development. As to Juolevi he's very much a  wait and see, we can't speculate or dream.

Wow.   If you don't think Virtanen's year in Utica assisted his development I don't think there are many on this board I have ever disagreed more with about a given player/topic.   Further, your general approach to understanding player development is so far removed from what I consider to be reality.   Again, wow.

 

There are far more NHL players than there are not who benefited from playing professional hockey prior to their NHL careers getting full traction and the AHL has consistently been the number one league for that step to take place.    Your small and biased sample size is so far at odds with the history of the Canucks specifically and the NHL in general - the AHL, and in this case Utica (and Manitoba previously for the past two), played and continues to play a massive role for developing players for Vancouver.

[BlastPast]

49 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wow.   If you don't think Virtanen's year in Utica assisted his development I don't think there are many on this board I have ever disagreed more with about a given player/topic.   Further, your general approach to understanding player development is so far removed from what I consider to be reality.   Again, wow.

 

There are far more NHL players than there are not who benefited from playing professional hockey prior to their NHL careers getting full traction and the AHL has consistently been the number one league for that step to take place.    Your small and biased sample size is so far at odds with the history of the Canucks specifically and the NHL in general - the AHL, and in this case Utica (and Manitoba previously for the past two), played and continues to play a massive role for developing players for Vancouver.

You're wasting your time dude.

[Rob_Zepp]

20 minutes ago, BlastPast said:

You're wasting your time dude.

Wouldn't be the first time!   

 

[Kootenay Gold]

@Rob_Zepp

Rob; what in your opinion is a realistic time line for Tyler to make the NHL and do you think he will spend time in the AHL first given what we are seeing out of him so far?

 

[Rob_Zepp]

7 minutes ago, Kootenay Gold said:

@Rob_Zepp

Rob; what in your opinion is a realistic time line for Tyler to make the NHL and do you think he will spend time in the AHL first given what we are seeing out of him so far?

 

He needs some bulk but his skating and smarts are NHL ready.   I can see him being in the NHL within three years for sure.   I would think another year in NCAA like Boeser did followed by one or two years in AHL would be perfect for this kid.   I REALLY liked him in WJC and thought he was the US best forward in several games.

[Dats hockey]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Wow.   If you don't think Virtanen's year in Utica assisted his development I don't think there are many on this board I have ever disagreed more with about a given player/topic.   Further, your general approach to understanding player development is so far removed from what I consider to be reality.   Again, wow.

 

There are far more NHL players than there are not who benefited from playing professional hockey prior to their NHL careers getting full traction and the AHL has consistently been the number one league for that step to take place.    Your small and biased sample size is so far at odds with the history of the Canucks specifically and the NHL in general - the AHL, and in this case Utica (and Manitoba previously for the past two), played and continues to play a massive role for developing players for Vancouver.

I’m by no means a Virtanen hater, but that being said him being in Utica under Travis green special advisement was good for him, but with that also being said their isn’t much success coming out of Utica. (By success I mean NHL success)

 

Sure their still a few case that are still to be determined but I’m not liking the direction in Utica. (IMO)

[Rob_Zepp]

12 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

I’m by no means a Virtanen hater, but that being said him being in Utica under Travis green special advisement was good for him, but with that also being said their isn’t much success coming out of Utica. (By success I mean NHL success)

 

Sure their still a few case that are still to be determined but I’m not liking the direction in Utica. (IMO)

You seem to only equate "success" to goals and points.    In reality, there is so much more to the NHL than those parameters and for every two or three players that drive those stats on a team, you need a whole pile more to play key roles inclusive of the role that Jake is increasingly playing very well for Vancouver.    If you do not care to notice or appreciate that role and the part the Utica year played in him learning that role, that is fine but doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Dats hockey]

10 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

You seem to only equate "success" to goals and points.    In reality, there is so much more to the NHL than those parameters and for every two or three players that drive those stats on a team, you need a whole pile more to play key roles inclusive of the role that Jake is increasingly playing very well for Vancouver.    If you do not care to notice or appreciate that role and the part the Utica year played in him learning that role, that is fine but doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ok but think of it like this Utica hasn’t developed us anything special, Virtanen has to work on conditioning IQ and Compete there.

 

Some failures they have had though, Archie despite his offensive side disappearing in the NHL his physical side would to, Gaunce his offensive side became not existent in the NHL hunter shinkuarik( can’t remember how to spell his name) have 1 good half season in Utica but was a straight failure all together, how long was pedan down there so we even talk about this? List go on and on. I’m just saying Utica hasn’t had much success with much and sure I do think Virt is some ways is a success he’s a very inconsistent 2nd line winger but a good 3rd line winger with still room to go but he was a 6th overall pick he was picked there because he should have already had some of these things right?

 

Edit: long story short do you think Utica is doing a goos job developing our guys? 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Dats hockey

[aGENT]

12 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

I’m by no means a Virtanen hater, but that being said him being in Utica under Travis green special advisement was good for him, but with that also being said their isn’t much success coming out of Utica. (By success I mean NHL success)

 

Sure their still a few case that are still to be determined but I’m not liking the direction in Utica. (IMO)

-Most players who are going to be closer to 'instant' NHL successes go straight to the NHL (Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson etc) bypassing Utica altogether. They're rare and generally, high picks. That is not the 'normal' development path of most players.

 

(*Horvat did play a few conditioning stint games in Utica).

 

-We're only starting to see the initial cresting waive of later drafted (largely 2nd round +) prospects entering Utica (Gaudette, Dahlen, Lind, Jasek etc).  Way too small of a period of time and sample size of players too make any declarations on how effective their time is or isn't in Utica. You'd probably need another 3'ish years to make any reasonably accurate assessment of how well Utica developed these players.

 

-The few early prospects of the small sample size of applicable players who have shown a higher likelihood of becoming NHL'ers but also needing development time, have all been well served by time in Utica thus far (Demko, Virtanen, Brisebois...).

 

-Assuming their should be 'mores success coming out of Utica' at this point completely ignores how long we've actually been rebuilding, how bare the cupboards were when we started, the quality of players in those cupboards at that time and that it generally takes 2+ years for most prospects to play out of Junior/college/Europe after being drafted to even arrive in Utica.

[Dats hockey]

2 minutes ago, aGENT said:

-Most players who are going to be closer to 'instant' NHL successes go straight to the NHL (Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson etc) bypassing Utica altogether. They're rare and generally, high picks. That is not the 'normal' development path of most players.

 

(*Horvat did play a few conditioning stint games in Utica).

 

-We're only starting to see the initial cresting waive of later drafted (largely 2nd round +) prospects entering Utica (Gaudette, Dahlen, Lind, Jasek etc).  Way too small of a period of time and sample size of players too make any declarations on how effective their time is or isn't in Utica. You'd probably need another 3'ish years to make any reasonably accurate assessment of how well Utica developed these players.

 

-The few early prospects of the small sample size of applicable players who have shown a higher likelihood of becoming NHL'ers but also needing development time, have all been well served by time in Utica thus far (Demko, Virtanen, Brisebois...).

 

-Assuming their should be 'mores success coming out of Utica' at this point completely ignores how long we've actually been rebuilding, how bare the cupboards were when we started, the quality of players in those cupboards at that time and that it generally takes 2+ years for most prospects to play out of Junior/college/Europe after being drafted to even arrive in Utica.

We’ll have to wait and see but I’ve watch a good chunk of game and the way to team runs they don’t seem to want people to improve on the offensive side of the game.

 

they let the vets run wild while all the young guys sit or play on line with less offensive upside.

[aGENT]

Just now, Dats hockey said:

Ok but think of it like this Utica hasn’t developed us anything special, Virtanen has to work on conditioning IQ and Compete there.

 

Some failures they have had though, Archie despite his offensive side disappearing in the NHL his physical side would to, Gaunce his offensive side became not existent in the NHL hunter shinkuarik( can’t remember how to spell his name) have 1 good half season in Utica but was a straight failure all together, how long was pedan down there so we even talk about this? List go on and on. I’m just saying Utica hasn’t had much success with much and sure I do think Virt is some ways is a success he’s a very inconsistent 2nd line winger but a good 3rd line winger with still room to go but he was a 6th overall pick he was picked there because he should have already had some of these things right?

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Dats hockey said:

We’ll have to wait and see but I’ve watch a good chunk of game and the way to team runs they don’t seem to want people to improve on the offensive side of the game.

 

they let the vets run wild while all the young guys sit or play on line with less offensive upside.

Kids need to learn to be pros. No different than the treatment Goldobin is getting here.

 

Adapt or die.

 

And given there's a 5 vet roster limit in the AHL, that's not particularly true anyway.

[Dats hockey]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

 

The bolded simply weren't high ceiling/likely NHL players to begin with? That's not a developmental failure, that's reality.

 

Virtanen has no control over where he was picked and is largely irrelevant to his development. And FWIW, historic 6th overalls are not remotely a guarantee of a top player. A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot. Does he still need to work on his consistency? Absoultely.

 

 

Then what is a developmental failure... you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

 

Irrelevant? No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

[Dats hockey]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Kids need to learn to be pros. No different than the treatment Goldobin is getting here.

 

Adapt or die.

 

And given there's a 5 vet roster limit in the AHL, that's not particularly true anyway.

On but in Utica, they should be give more of a leash more of a chance because those guys might be your future  people like Kero Archie was he was there getting put out there over everyone at important times doesn’t really help these prospects grow. I understand insulting prospect with vet but the deployment is poor

[aGENT]

4 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

Then what is a developmental failure...

 

Taking a likely NHL player like Virtanen or Demko or Gaudette etc and turning them from likely NHL'ers to busts.

 

5 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

you are picking raw unrefined talent most drafts and it upto your management to develope it. Utica failed to set these guys up to make it to the NHL.

You're ignoring the % of players taken where they were that actually become 200+ game NHL'ers, let alone anything resembling star players. It's LOW. It's exceedingly normal for players like you posted to not make it at all or have entirely brief, and peripheral/depth NHL careers. This is not unique to the Canucks or Utica. Low probability players are low probability players. Gaunce is actually a decent/comparative success given his draft position and is still somewhat young/not necessarily done in the NHL at this point either.

 

10 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

No there were reason why he was such a high pick and it wasn’t to become a bottom 6 bang em up forward at the time, I agree it’s irrelevant now, not at the time but I’m still alright with what he’s turned into you can’t bang them out of the park every pick, but saying its completely irrelevant is putting some kind of blinders on 

Who's says he's a 'bottom 6 bang em up forward'? I said:

 

18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

A, defensively sound, middle 6 winger with elite skating/shot/physicality is historically a win in that spot.

Again, that's a win. Could we have won 'more' if we'd picked an Ehlers or Pastrnak? Sure. But that's captain hindsight material (which especially with Pastnrak) I have little interest in and happens to every GM/team, every draft.

 

Now his development after being drafted has certainly been bumpy but again, THAT has nothing to do with where he was drafted and seems to be slowly working itself out regardless. Fortune favours the patient, not the panicky.

 

14 minutes ago, Dats hockey said:

On but in Utica, they should be give more of a leash more of a chance because those guys might be your future  people like Kero Archie was he was there getting put out there over everyone at important times doesn’t really help these prospects grow. I understand insulting prospect with vet but the deployment is poor

Sorry, but simply giving ice time to prospects who haven't earned it is exactly the opposite of development. Again, just like Goldy here or Virtanen previously etc, you get the ice time you earn. It's the only way to develop pros. Jasek = earning ice time. Gaudette = earning ice time etc, etc, etc....

 

Basically, you couldn't be more wrong. Sorry.