Popular Post GoldenAlien Posted December 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) This doom and gloom is so over the top. Literally every other early season prediction/ power ranking had Canucks as a bottom 3 team. One of the worst records over the past three seasons and lost the Sedins and Vanek. Then the team gets on a hot streak and sits at the top of the league for a New York minute, and suddenly it's a failure if we're not pushing for playoffs in March? Most of the September discussions were "we're going to get Jack Hughes" vs "the lottery is rigged." The rebuild is going fine. Many of the major pieces are in place -- a PPG #1 centre (Pettersson), a 60-70pt two way centre (Horvat), a 30+ goal sniper (Boeser), a 50pt puck moving D (Hughes), and a #1 goalie (Demko). Sure, Demko and Hughes are not in the NHL yet, but everything points to them fulfilling their potential. Then we have a few good complimentary pieces -- a 40pt winger in Baertschi, possibly a 40pt PWF in Virtanen, maybe a 30-40pt two-way defenseman in Juolevi. We don't quite know what we have with Goldobin and Gaudette, but they're NHL players. Guys like Gudbranson, Hutton and Stecher will still be in their prime in 3 years, and even Tanev and Sutter will still be in their early 30s (if we extend them). And who knows, Tryamkin might come back in 2020. The team could use another blue chip D prospect (preferably RH) and another piece up front, but we'll have a high pick in 2019. Keep in mind the Canucks started the 2015-2016 season genuinely trying to make the playoffs, and the trade of Burrows/ Hansen in 2017 was really the first commitment to a full rebuild. What the Canucks are now is what a lot of rebuilding teams are -- a few great pieces, a few good but inconsistent pieces, and not enough depth to cover for injuries or for when a couple guys go cold. Over the past 13 game stretch (not including tonight's game vs Nashville), we've played without Beagle, Sutter, Tanev, Edler, Nilsson, Boeser, Baertschi, and lost 5 of the past 9 by one goal. Some nights, we were the better team, and have been competing and keeping up. There's nothing broken here. The rookie forwards on the farm are not stalling. They were always projects meant to be complementary pieces at the NHL level. Statistically speaking, players picked between #32 and #56 have a 32% to 39% chance of playing at least 100 games in the NHL (per TSN's data). That means out of Dahlen, Lind and Gadjovich, we should get one player who'll play a couple seasons for the big club. These players have a 9-13% chance of becoming a top 6 F/ top 4 D/ #1 G. Which means we may very well not get a single top 6 forward out of the bunch. Then for players picked between #171 and #186, they have a 14% chance of playing 100 games in the NHL, and a 2% chance of becoming a top 6 F/ top 4 D etc. So for Jasek and Palmu, the deck is really stacked against them. In summary, we have three guys with a 9-13% chance of becoming a top 6 forward, and two guys with a 2% chance of becoming a top 6 forward. If out of these 5 guys we end up with a second line winger and a bottom 6 forward who sticks around for a couple of seasons, we've actually beaten the odds. Take Gadjovich. He has 2pts in his first 14 games, which looks abysmal. But Virtanen put up 7pts in his first 24 games in Utica, and 19pts in 65 games overall. Now Virtanen was picked #6 -- nearly 50 spots ahead of Gadjovich. At 226lbs, he's 17lbs heavier than Gadjovich, which presumably means he's stronger and harder to move for opposing defensemen. At the same time, he's twice the skater that Gadjovich is. So if a top 10 pick who's bigger, faster, and more talented was getting 7pts in his first 24 games (and Virtanen had played in the NHL the previous year), why are we expecting Gadjovich to get into every game and score 0.5 ppg in his first pro season? Or look at Dahlen. He has 14pts in 24 games, or 0.58 ppg. Schroeder scored 28pts in 61 games as a rookie, or 0.46 ppg. Sure, Schroeder was 20 and Dahlen is turning 21, but Schroeder was ranked #5 among NA skaters by Central Scouting in his draft year. He had the highest career point total ever for an American at the WJCs, surpassing Jeremy Roenick. His career assist was the third highest in WJC history. By every metric, he was a better prospect than Dahlen, yet even in his second AHL season, he scored 44pts in 76 games, or just under 0.58 ppg. This is from a first round pick who's played on North American rinks his whole life. These prospects need time. In Virtanen's first years with Vancouver, he played with plugs on the fourth line, and he played with the Sedins on the top line. He wasn't good on either lines, and the Sedins weren't able to accelerate his development or make him a better player. But over time, he's gotten fitter, he's worked on his stickhandling with a coach, and he said this season the game slowed down for him, so he's finally coming into his own. If the Sedins couldn't elevate Virtanen, what makes anyone think an extra Kero on the farm will transform Gadjovich? Goldobin can get into a slump playing with Pettersson, but playing with Gagner will turn Dahlen into Nylander? Just like Green used to call out Baertschi in his first year, just like Goldobin is hot and cold as a rookie, guys like Dahlen are going to hit speed bumps. They need time to get stronger and faster, time to adjust to the competition, time for the game to slow down. Spending extra time at the gym, doing extra skates/ drills, going over tapes -- like Virtanen did with Green -- is development. And at the end of the day, if Palmu is still getting scratched next season, it just means a sixth round pick turned out like... a sixth round pick. Right now, the Canucks have 7 drafted players on the roster (Pettersson, Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser, Gaudette, Edler, Hutton). We'll likely get 3 more -- Hughes, Demko, Juolevi -- in the next 2 years. We should get one player out of the current group in Utica, and one out of prospects outside of AHL (Woo, Lockwood, Madden, Rathbone, DiPietro, Tryamkin, Manukyan, Utunen, Gunnarsson, Thiessen). That's 12 players, and we'll probably get a top 5 prospect this year, which means we might have 13 drafted players on the roster in a couple seasons. And that's not including undrafted free agents like Tanev and Stecher (which still requires scouting and development), and guys like Baertschi, Goldobin, Granlund or Markstrom, who we had a significant role in making into NHL regulars. Not saying everyone will be on the roster at the same time, but that's not a bad record for developing our own talent. Considering we've never had a top 3 pick, and started with a bare cupboard, we're basically right on track with this rebuild. Edited December 7, 2018 by GoldenAlien 2 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor comet Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) Most of the comets fans from the beginning of the season said it would be somewhere between Thanksgiving and Xmas before the comets turn the corner.... It just takes time for the youngsters to figure it out... Hopefully some of them pick it up. If they don't it will be a very painful season in Utica. That being said, the Canucks did themselves no favors basically surrounding their young wingers with a very weak offensive support in the form of a bunch of checking 4th liners. Canuck management strikes yet again......for some reason they assumed the young players would carry the load, which buy the way no other AHL team expect from their rookies. Edited December 7, 2018 by Connor comet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73 Percent Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Connor comet said: Most of the comets fans from the beginning of the season said it would be somewhere between Thanksgiving and Xmas before the comets turn the corner.... It just takes time for the youngsters to figure it out... Hopefully some of them pick it up. If they don't it will be a very painful season in Utica. That being said, the Canucks did themselves no favors basically surrounding their young wingers with a very weak offensive support in the form of a bunch of checking 4th liners. Canuck management strikes yet again......for some reason they assumed the young players would carry the load, which buy the way no other AHL team expect from their rookies. Thus team could lose very game 3-2 and I wouldn't care so long as a couple of our prospects have pts and demko stops 40 of 43. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Fingers Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Connor comet said: Most of the comets fans from the beginning of the season said it would be somewhere between Thanksgiving and Xmas before the comets turn the corner.... It just takes time for the youngsters to figure it out... Hopefully some of them pick it up. If they don't it will be a very painful season in Utica. That being said, the Canucks did themselves no favors basically surrounding their young wingers with a very weak offensive support in the form of a bunch of checking 4th liners. Canuck management strikes yet again......for some reason they assumed the young players would carry the load, which buy the way no other AHL team expect from their rookies. To me it is still a hangover from the total lack of depth thru this organization from the end of the MG era combined with excellent AHL goaltending that made the comets look stronger than they really were. Injuries have again exposed this issue which takes years to address. With so many prospects graduating to the AHL, why sign a bunch of place holders to take spots? The club has prioritized drafting and development over short term gains. Then again losing 8 starters from.the NHL lineup put way too much pressure on Utica. I don't know any club out there that wouldn't be struggling in those circumstances. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 56 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said: To me it is still a hangover from the total lack of depth thru this organization from the end of the MG era combined with excellent AHL goaltending that made the comets look stronger than they really were. Injuries have again exposed this issue which takes years to address. With so many prospects graduating to the AHL, why sign a bunch of place holders to take spots? The club has prioritized drafting and development over short term gains. Then again losing 8 starters from.the NHL lineup put way too much pressure on Utica. I don't know any club out there that wouldn't be struggling in those circumstances. Bang on. Yes the Comets are struggling. Last I looked the Canucks are in the bottom 5 of the NHL. Fans have to take a honest look at the depth in the org. The Canucks biggest weakness is on defense IMHO. The Comets have Brisbois, Chatfield and Sauntner as 2nd year pros. Joulevi is a 1st year AHLer. Many fans would like these 4 rotated thru Vancouver and yet the Canucks have left them to get the TOI they have to have. The Canucks have had a long history of rushing players to the NHL and not having a very deep pool of prospects. Under the current regime this has been slowly changing as they develop and assess those prospects. This is not a lot of fun for many fans but it is unavoidable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86Viking Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 There has to be some quality ECHL players that are former AHL veterans. Is there something wrong with TJ Hensick, is he a locker room cancer? Solid AHL veteran, small in size yes but he seems to produce offensively. Had 45pts in 60gp for LA Kings AHL team last year, and nobody offers him an AHL deal? That boggles me big time. But I know nothing about him other than stat lines and that he formerly played for Utica. I think the Canucks as a 700M plus valued sports team should be trying to pay TOP AHL $ to get a couple solid players to help in Utica. Sure we have some decent looking prospects down their this year, but all of them are what...AHL Virgins this year aren't they!? So they have to adjust to the speed and size of players and some Euro's need to adapt to the smaller ice surface. In my opinion there has to be some Ex NHL players over in Europe we could entice with an AHL deal worth 250-400k that we could have signed to a 2 way deal with a camp invite. It probably isnt easy to get quality AHL players, but Canucks need to do a better job insulating the youth in Utica this year, so far it looks like its a big adjustment and most of them are going to need more time or maybe a stint down the ECHL to get their game going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krutovsdonut Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 i know nothing about hensick beyond his stats that tell me from 2013-2018 hensick played on 6 different ahl teams and 30 games for modo in the shl. he's been reasonably productive everywhere, and is currently well over ppg in the echl. seems like he's had ample chance to stick somewhere and the comets are not the only ahl team currently letting him rest in toledo. you could infer there is a reason for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenAlien Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Connor comet said: Canuck management strikes yet again......for some reason they assumed the young players would carry the load, which buy the way no other AHL team expect from their rookies. Except plenty do. Every year nearly half the league miss the playoffs -- by definition these prospects failed to carry the load. Prospects pools in the AHL are often rookie-heavy, considering guys who do well end up in the NHL the next season. Which is why huge swings in fortune are common -- one year you're playing hockey in June, the next year you're golfing in April. 1 hour ago, Canuckster86 said: I think the Canucks as a 700M plus valued sports team should be trying to pay TOP AHL $ to get a couple solid players to help in Utica. Sure we have some decent looking prospects down their this year, but all of them are what...AHL Virgins this year aren't they!? So they have to adjust to the speed and size of players and some Euro's need to adapt to the smaller ice surface. In my opinion there has to be some Ex NHL players over in Europe we could entice with an AHL deal worth 250-400k that we could have signed to a 2 way deal with a camp invite. It probably isnt easy to get quality AHL players, but Canucks need to do a better job insulating the youth in Utica this year, so far it looks like its a big adjustment and most of them are going to need more time or maybe a stint down the ECHL to get their game going The thing is, guys who need more time will need time regardless of who's playing on their team. Take someone like Dahlen or Palmu -- they are good, but not elite, skaters. They have good, but not elite, skillset. If they were 6'1", 200lbs, that's fine, but you can't be sub-180lbs and be merely above average. Dahlen is used to being able to play in the dirty areas, but he can't do that against AHL defensemen. He needs to work on his strength and explosiveness, and until he does that, he's not making the NHL. What the Canucks care about is the long term potential of these prospects. If Dahlen is trending towards a 40pt player, but playing with an AHL All-Star made him into a 70pt player, then that AHL vet should get a house in Shaughnessy. But it doesn't really work that way. For example, look at Cal O'Reilly, who's the best centre Utica ever had and took them to the Calder Cup finals in 2014-2015. Canucks prospect wingers on the team at the time: Shinkaurk, Gaunce, Jensen, Grenier, Kenins, Zalewski. Who in this cohort is a better player today because of O'Reilly? Baertschi joined the team in March after getting traded, but he was already an elite AHL player. Heck, who in this group would be a worse player today had the team been kicked out in the first round? Or take Shinkaruk, who had 39pts in 45 games in 2015-2016 with Utica, but scored 35pts in 52 games with Stockton the season after. But in Stockton, his centre was Jankowski, who was easily better than anyone on Utica. The purpose of an AHL team isn't to pad stats, there's no point in signing additional players unless they directly impact a prospect's long term performance. By all accounts from Cull and Johnson, the Canucks rookies are doing what they're supposed to -- putting in work off the ice, learning the pace of the AHL, paying more attention to the details of the game. An extra TJ Hensick might turn a 2-1 loss into a 3-2 win, but he won't turn Gadjovich into Tkachuk. Edited December 7, 2018 by GoldenAlien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UticaHockey Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 25 minutes ago, GoldenAlien said: Except plenty do. Every year nearly half the league miss the playoffs -- by definition these prospects failed to carry the load. Prospects pools in the AHL are often rookie-heavy, considering guys who do well end up in the NHL the next season. Which is why huge swings in fortune are common -- one year you're playing hockey in June, the next year you're golfing in April. The thing is, guys who need more time will need time regardless of who's playing on their team. Take someone like Dahlen or Palmu -- they are good, but not elite, skaters. They have good, but not elite, skillset. If they were 6'1", 200lbs, that's fine, but you can't be sub-180lbs and be merely above average. Dahlen is used to being able to play in the dirty areas, but he can't do that against AHL defensemen. He needs to work on his strength and explosiveness, and until he does that, he's not making the NHL. What the Canucks care about is the long term potential of these prospects. If Dahlen is trending towards a 40pt player, but playing with an AHL All-Star made him into a 70pt player, then that AHL vet should get a house in Shaughnessy. But it doesn't really work that way. For example, look at Cal O'Reilly, who's the best centre Utica ever had and took them to the Calder Cup finals in 2014-2015. Canucks prospect wingers on the team at the time: Shinkaurk, Gaunce, Jensen, Grenier, Kenins, Zalewski. Who in this cohort is a better player today because of O'Reilly? Baertschi joined the team in March after getting traded, but he was already an elite AHL player. Heck, who in this group would be a worse player today had the team been kicked out in the first round? Or take Shinkaruk, who had 39pts in 45 games in 2015-2016 with Utica, but scored 35pts in 52 games with Stockton the season after. But in Stockton, his centre was Jankowski, who was easily better than anyone on Utica. The purpose of an AHL team isn't to pad stats, there's no point in signing additional players unless they directly impact a prospect's long term performance. By all accounts from Cull and Johnson, the Canucks rookies are doing what they're supposed to -- putting in work off the ice, learning the pace of the AHL, paying more attention to the details of the game. An extra TJ Hensick might turn a 2-1 loss into a 3-2 win, but he won't turn Gadjovich into Tkachuk. That all sounds fine and I get that the AHL is a development league but it is also a business that charges money for people to watch the product and other businesses to advertise during it's games. If the 31 and soon to be 32 NHL teams only care about developing a hand full of prospects on ELCs perhaps they should do away with the AHL completely and create a new deveolpment league. To save on cost each NHL team would carry a "development roster" that would consist of prospects on ELC contracts and depth signings available for injury call ups to the NHL roster. The Development team would always travel with the NHL team and play a scrimmage with the other team's Development squad at that practice rink while the NHL game is going on. Example...If Vancouver has a game in Calgary all of the players would fly out to Calgary together and while the Flames and Canucks go at it the development squads would scrimmage either at the practice rink or in the late afternoon in the NHL rink before the big game starts. All players would be together so call ups would never be delayed while training staffs would be shared. Novel idea eh? But not so much for the 31 AHL cities that would lose their team and not for the growth of hockey in communities that do not have NHL hockey. So if the AHL is going to be run as a business then developing a couple prospects each season as you defined it cannot be the only objective even if it is the primary objective. There is also a need to put an entertaining and successful product on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor comet Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Boudrias said: Bang on. Yes the Comets are struggling. Last I looked the Canucks are in the bottom 5 of the NHL. Fans have to take a honest look at the depth in the org. The Canucks biggest weakness is on defense IMHO. The Comets have Brisbois, Chatfield and Sauntner as 2nd year pros. Joulevi is a 1st year AHLer. Many fans would like these 4 rotated thru Vancouver and yet the Canucks have left them to get the TOI they have to have. The Canucks have had a long history of rushing players to the NHL and not having a very deep pool of prospects. Under the current regime this has been slowly changing as they develop and assess those prospects. This is not a lot of fun for many fans but it is unavoidable. Sautner is in his 4th season with the comets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Just now, Connor comet said: Sautner is in his 4th season with the comets... When's the dead line again for us to sign up with Utica? Why is this taking so long? What's up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor comet Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Alflives said: When's the dead line again for us to sign up with Utica? Why is this taking so long? What's up? Dec 31st is the renewal deadline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Connor comet said: Dec 31st is the renewal deadline. Can we renew after that date? Do the Canucks have to choose another AHL city before the 31st too, or is it just with Utica? I don't get this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Connor comet said: Sautner is in his 4th season with the comets... and will be a UFA by the end of the season because he will be 25 and has yet to play in 80 NHL games. Same with McEneny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor comet Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: Can we renew after that date? Do the Canucks have to choose another AHL city before the 31st too, or is it just with Utica? I don't get this. i doubt it is a big deal. Utica has no viable option. more than likely Utica wants 3 years or more which will not happen and the Canucks will want 1-2 seasons with a lot of outs. The question is does the AHL want Seattle and the Canucks to establish teams at the same time, or will they be ok with the Canucks having a team all alone in the North West for a season or two????? There's no doubt Utica's days are numbered..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 1 minute ago, Connor comet said: i doubt it is a big deal. Utica has no viable option. more than likely Utica wants 3 years or more which will not happen and the Canucks will want 1-2 seasons with a lot of outs. The question is does the AHL want Seattle and the Canucks to establish teams at the same time, or will they be ok with the Canucks having a team all alone in the North West for a season or two????? There's no doubt Utica's days are numbered..... Thanks for the explanation. It does seem logical to move the farm team out west, but I just think the Utica situation is a really good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connor comet Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, mll said: and will be a UFA by the end of the season because he will be 25 and has yet to play in 80 NHL games. Same with McEneny. Sautner signed a 2 year extension back in the spring. he has another full season with the Canucks next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UticaHockey Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 30 minutes ago, Alflives said: Can we renew after that date? Do the Canucks have to choose another AHL city before the 31st too, or is it just with Utica? I don't get this. What has been reported in a radio interview with Aquilini and then immediately confirmed by Benning after is that the current contract with the Comets has a renewal clause that has to be exercised by December 31st. That renewal would be for another 6 years with the first three years guaranteed. What happens come January 1st and the renewal option is not exercised? Either Vancouver will actively seek out a different location for the AHL farm team or there will be further negotiations with the Comets to keep the team in Utica but under different terms than the 6/3 year agreement that is built into the existing contract renewal clause. It is a high probability that December 31st will come and go and we won't know any more than we know today. https://www.uticaod.com/news/20181011/canucks-owner-discusses-affiliation-with-utica-comets 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GoldenAlien Posted December 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, UticaHockey said: That all sounds fine and I get that the AHL is a development league but it is also a business that charges money for people to watch the product and other businesses to advertise during it's games. If the 31 and soon to be 32 NHL teams only care about developing a hand full of prospects on ELCs perhaps they should do away with the AHL completely and create a new deveolpment league. To save on cost each NHL team would carry a "development roster" that would consist of prospects on ELC contracts and depth signings available for injury call ups to the NHL roster. The Development team would always travel with the NHL team and play a scrimmage with the other team's Development squad at that practice rink while the NHL game is going on. Example...If Vancouver has a game in Calgary all of the players would fly out to Calgary together and while the Flames and Canucks go at it the development squads would scrimmage either at the practice rink or in the late afternoon in the NHL rink before the big game starts. All players would be together so call ups would never be delayed while training staffs would be shared. Novel idea eh? But not so much for the 31 AHL cities that would lose their team and not for the growth of hockey in communities that do not have NHL hockey. So if the AHL is going to be run as a business then developing a couple prospects each season as you defined it cannot be the only objective even if it is the primary objective. There is also a need to put an entertaining and successful product on the ice. I get your frustration, but the truth is, the AHL isn't a business. If you look at the numbers, Rangers renewed with Hartford for three years in 2013, and it got a $1.4m/ year affiliation fee, which was then the highest in the league. It now gets $1.6m/ year in its new deal. The Canucks also signed with Utica in 2013, but considering Utica has a smaller arena, was an unproven market, the affiliation fee definitely would've been lower than Hartford's. Let's say it's more like $1m, maybe $1.2m at most. But look at this reporting from May 2014: Quote According to Sam Tornatore, a member of the Comets board, the players, coaches and Comets’ staff are earning approximately $2 million a year. Now that doesn't include insurance or equipment, or travel costs for 38 road games/ call ups. And just cost of living raises would make the Comets payroll more than $2m now, since this data is 4.5 years old. Esche presumably get all the parking, concession etc, and I'm not sure how much of the ticket revenue he shares. But we're looking at 3,917 seats at 38 home games, and the season tickets go for ~$13-$23 currently, though there are easily more $15 seats than $23 ones. But let's say they average out to $18/ seat, since single game tickets usually sell for more. That would give Utica a total ticket revenue of $2.68m/ year, without accounting for cost, taxes, Esche's share, etc. Yes, there are a few suites, merchandise sales, playoff revenue in some years, but the matter of the fact is, Canucks' cost is likely over $3m, and the only guarantee is the ~$1m affiliation fee. This is nothing against Utica, the majority of AHL teams don't turn a profit. But if an NHL team loses money for 5 years straight with no end in sight, you'll probably see them cut payroll to keep cost down (a la Ottawa), take on debt, or look to sell. To everyone's knowledge, the Canucks have not slashed the Comets' budget or tried to sell. If you owned a store and it doesn't make money for 5 years, would it still be open on the 6th year? Yet the Canucks are looking at West Coast options for the Comets -- something that would make the operation more expensive. The reason there are 31 AHL franchises is precisely because owning a farm team isn't a business. It's a cost of doing business. It might be a bit different for the independently owned teams, but I doubt you'd find a single NHL owner who says they bought an AHL franchise for financial returns. If the purpose of the Comets' existence doesn't have anything to do with making money, then its objective is to accomplish Canucks' objective -- which is to develop the few prospects the organization deems to be important. If in the process, the Comets win a Calder Cup, then great. But that's just a byproduct of achieving the main goal, it's not something the organization aims for in and of itself. Edited December 7, 2018 by GoldenAlien 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UticaHockey Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, GoldenAlien said: I get your frustration, but the truth is, the AHL isn't a business. If you look at the numbers, Rangers renewed with Hartford for three years in 2013, and it got a $1.4m/ year affiliation fee, which was then the highest in the league. It now gets $1.6m/ year in its new deal. The Canucks also signed with Utica in 2013, but considering Utica has a smaller arena, was an unproven market, the affiliation fee definitely would've been lower than Hartford's. Let's say it's more like $1m, maybe $1.2m at most. But look at this reporting from May 2014: Now that doesn't include insurance or equipment, or travel costs for 38 road games/ call ups. And just cost of living raises would make the Comets payroll more than $2m now, since this data is 4.5 years old. Esche presumably get all the parking, concession etc, and I'm not sure how much of the ticket revenue he shares. But we're looking at 3,917 seats at 38 home games, and the season tickets go for ~$13-$23 currently, though there are easily more $15 seats than $23 ones. But let's say they average out to $18/ seat, since single game tickets usually sell for more. That would give Utica a total ticket revenue of $2.68m/ year, without accounting for cost, taxes, Esche's share, etc. Yes, there are a few suites, merchandise sales, playoff revenue in some years, but the matter of the fact is, Canucks' cost is likely in the $3m range, and the only guarantee is the ~$1m affiliation fee. This is nothing against Utica, the majority of AHL teams don't turn a profit. But if an NHL team loses money for 5 years straight with no end in sight, you'll probably see them cut payroll to keep cost down (a la Ottawa), take on debt, or look to sell. To everyone's knowledge, the Canucks have not slashed the Comets' budget or tried to sell. If you owned a store and it doesn't make money for 5 years, would it still be open on the 6th year? Yet the Canucks are looking at West Coast options for the Comets -- something that would make the operation more expensive. The reason there are 31 AHL franchises is precisely because owning a farm team isn't a business. It's a cost of doing business. It might be a bit different for the independently owned teams, but I doubt you'd find a single NHL owner who says they bought an AHL franchise for financial returns. If the purpose of the Comets' existence doesn't have anything to do with making money, then its objective is to accomplish Canucks' objective -- which is to develop the few prospects the organization deems to be important. If in the process, the Comets win a Calder Cup, then great. But that's just a byproduct of achieving the main goal, it's not something the organization aims for in and of itself. You must be real fun at parties.... First you say that the AHL isn't a business than you go on to write an essay about all of the financial assumptions of said non business. Yes there is a financial cost for every NHL team to maintain a farm system. That is why my tongue in cheek comments about getting rid of the AHL and replacing it with developmental scrimmages might actually appeal to NHL CFOs and GMs alike. But as long as AHL teams have ticket account managers, corporate marketing managers and paying customers it is a business. As a season ticket holder I am a customer of one of these businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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