Is the Current Ownership Failing this Team?

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Watchincanucks said:

Yep clearly I’m missing the point. Name 1 other team that went out and spent 8 million and 10 years total for their forth line. There is no rebuild ever that has taken this approach. Benning is counting on young unproven players to provide offence but have not even secured a spot on the team. Benning is reinventing the rebuild, Toronto Boston Colorado and New Jersey put at least 3 rookies in their lineup and made the playoffs and did not need to trade a bunch of vets after preseason to do it. Linden could no longer support the approach they were taking.

And none of the teams you listed won the Cup.  Only Boston even got out of round one!

JB is building a team to win Cups!

[Watchincanucks]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And none of the teams you listed won the Cup.  Only Boston even got out of round one!

JB is building a team to win Cups!

So now we are winning the cup without making the playoffs? Toronto is a Stanley cup favourite this year, because they could afford Tavares, never would that happen if they spent 8 mill on forth line.

[canucksnihilist]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

And none of the teams you listed won the Cup.  Only Boston even got out of round one!

JB is building a team to win Cups!

Maybe... he is getting players he likes and hat he thinks can help win.  He knows how to pick em!  But he doesn’t seem to negotiate contracts well enough for us to really think the team will win with him at the helm.   Probably he can build the team but can’t really manage the team....  We will see!  Although in 3 years he might be gone.

 

give me Gillis’s management decisions with JBs draft record!   

[ButterBean]

4 hours ago, Watchincanucks said:

Yes ownership and management are failing the team. Linden was hired to steer the direction of the team. When his input was disregarded, and was never given the opportunity to implement his vision for the team, it shows ineptitude at the top. You have to trust your own hires, if you lose confidence you fire them, not say amicably decided to part ways. Accountability and transparency are important. You don’t say publicly we are going to build through the draft then become the most active team in free agency year after year. You certainly don’t build your team starting with your 4th line. You give money to your best players and fill out with cheap young players to learn the game with limited minutes playing against lesser competition ie. other 4th line players. If Jay Beagle is getting matched against other teams top players he will be near the top of team in minutes played, do we really want Jay Beagle as second line centre? Cause his ice time will be in that range. Linden could no longer support this regime and I don’t blame him. He sends 1 message and then the team does the opposite.

Who said Jay Beagle is getting 2nd line minutes? 

 

Horvat and Sutter will already play more minutes than him, and so will Petersson and Gaudette if they make the team. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

So now we are winning the cup without making the playoffs? Toronto is a Stanley cup favourite this year, because they could afford Tavares, never would that happen if they spent 8 mill on forth line.

Leafs are nothing.  Way too many pretty boys, and no Beagle, Rousel, and Schaller type players.  

[mikeyman109]

18 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Yep clearly I’m missing the point. Name 1 other team that went out and spent 8 million and 10 years total for their forth line. There is no rebuild ever that has taken this approach. Benning is counting on young unproven players to provide offence but have not even secured a spot on the team. Benning is reinventing the rebuild, Toronto Boston Colorado and New Jersey put at least 3 rookies in their lineup and made the playoffs and did not need to trade a bunch of vets after preseason to do it. Linden could no longer support the approach they were taking.

You dont have to look at any other team. They do not have the prospect pool we have. We are not counting on those players providing offense. We are waiting for them to develop to provide this. it might happen this year maybe next.Toronto, Boston and New Jersey had their bottom 6 players pretty much already what they needed was their rookies to provide the offense. its not the same rebuild.

Other than win the draft lottery, Toronto has done a marvelous job of their last 50 years there is a team we should emulate Different.

Boston had pretty much their cup team still in place other than adding a few rookies. Different

New Jersey??? really how irrelevant is their rebuild have they won anything lately?  wow id like to be a first round exit team the next 15 years because we signed all our rookies and we became a little bit better.

 

Look its very simple in case you haven't figured this out we are not going to compete for the cup this season. We want to develop the talent we are drafting not sign top 6 forwards that will cost huge money and want term that will block the players we are drafting. the signing of bottom 6 players is exactly what we needed to do. Support the young kids that are coming up with a few players not afraid to stand up for the younger ones. we want to win a cup not just compete for a playoff spot. you do that by drafting high and making sure your kids are ready when you believe they are all in place.

 

Also you miss the point exactly on the money and term it would take to get these types of players to come to a last place out of the playoffs team. It takes a little bit more cash and an extra year of that cashto persuade them to come here.

[bree2]

so what has Toronto, boston, Colorado and new jersey  along with oilers flames and a few others done recently  yes they made the playoffs , but never went far .  how do you know that was what Linden was thinking when he stepped down. he never said it , everyone is just guessing 

[Watchincanucks]

Well guess the rebuild through free agency will be the next rage in the nhl. Said nobody ever. Drafting and developing players and them joining the previous core is how teams win. Sedins are gone and we missed that window. Free agency you go out and add the final piece, you don’t start signing 4th line free agents. Brian Burke at the draft said if a first round pick doesn’t make the team within 3 years it’s a wasted pick, everyone here seems to think no player should make it in 3 years. Dahlen Pettersson Demko Juolevi Gaudette are ready, they’ve been developed properly. That Benning has not prepared for this is a mistake. 5 players competing for 2 spots is competition, competing for zero is a joke.

[bree2]

so we should all believe burke?

 

[EdgarM]

55 minutes ago, Attila Umbrus said:

 

Nailed it, we've been missing Lappy, Torres, Malholtra type players for a while now. Pretty much since then we haven't been able to stabilize the bottom end of our roster. Now we have.

 

Our defense i'm quite okay with. I really love the Edler and Guddy pairing, they caught my eye as a pair in the preseason last year...not sure why it took till the end of the season to put them together again. MDZ and Tanev could also be a good pairing in the sense that MDZ could really let off the chains a bit and get into more offensive rushes, could really see MDZ having a solid season with Tanev. Upping his value come trade dead line. A mentally ready/fit Hutton will really round out our bottom end on defense, along with Stetcher...who will be solid for us once again this season. That leaves Pouliot and Biega and 7/8. Not bad really. My dark horse is Juolevi, if he comes to camp and steals the show I don't know how you don't try to keep him on your opening day roster.

 

Also, I will go out on a limb and say Marky will have a great year as well. Overall his season last year was not bad at all, just some consistency issues here and there. Which if he cleans up will really solidfy our team.

 

Long story short, we could surprise some people...but i'm an annoyingly positive person...

`Agreed. Those type of players are underestimated in their importance on a team.

I actually think our D group does quite well when healthy. They really don't do well when they are thrown out of their element and are forced into roles due to injuries.

Ed, Gud, Tan, MDZ and Stech form a good defensive group, not offensive mind you, but are adequate at playing D and keeping the team in most games. As long as they stay healthy and Marky stops letting in that first goal in the first couple of minutes in the game we should be fine. The new goalie coach may help with this.

I guess I am one of those annoyingly positive people as well. 

[EdgarM]

57 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

failing this team?

 

depends on your definition.

 

If you mean failing the team by signing bottom 6 UFAs and taking roster spots away from young players that could probably play in the NHL this coming season, then yes they are failing the team.

 

If you mean failing the team by trying to get the team close to a wild-card spot and make the team competitive NOW so that they can have people paying to buy tickets to the team, then no they aren't failing the team at all.

 

the sun will shine tomorrow no matter what happens.  some will say that the team is making a mistake by not doing a real full rebuild (which they obviously are not doing - they don't use their cap space to take on contracts in order to get extra draft picks, etc etc.  I've said this before) - that they team is going to never be a real contender.  And they might be right.  But I'm more of the mind that all it takes to be a contender is to get LUCKY.  and I don't mean winning the lottery.  No matter what the management tries to do on any team, they just have to get lucky - players they draft have to work out, they have to make the right trades that look like steals, and the right mix and chemistry has to be there.  Things have to fall into place.  And you don't need a complete rebuild in order for that to happen.  Look at Vegas, they got lucky and Florida basically gave them a whole first line, and they had a good mix and enough skill and great coaching - and they were a huge success story.

 

Now, I do believe that a full rebuild offers the best chance at competing for a longer period of time and to compete more consistently over time.  But just because the team can't do that (they need to sell tickets people... and don't cry to hard about it, as if they don't the team will probably move to Seattle or some other place, and the owners can realize their gains from the increase in value of the franchise.  Maybe this is a reach, but hey business is business and half a billion dollars is hard to say no to...  or they could say no to half a billion and just lose money every year and see their franchise value decline) - just because the team can't do that it doesn't mean that the team won't compete.  Hell for all we know the decisions made just luckily happen to be the best ones to leave the team in a better position in 3 years (although having 3 anchors on contract at that time seems dumb, but hey, you never know!  Maybe we don't need cap space at all for some reason).

 

Look at Washington.  They rebuilt a long time ago.  But it was only a retool they made in the last few years (and Ovechkin becoming a 2 way player helped, but that wouldn't have done it alone) that made them actually a real contender for the cup.  

 

so there is no way to say if the ownership (read plan) is failing or not.  Could they do better?  A lot of people think so.  But if the team stays in Van then we can consider them to have succeeded.  The team will have enough young players to compete in 3-5 years for sure.  It will be fun again.  But whether in 5-10 years we can win a cup?  we have to get lucky to do it.  Everything needs to fall into place and almost all of it is beyond the managements control - all they can control is actions that they can guess might have the best outcome.  At least we are drafting better than we ever have!  that is reason for optimism alone!

 

 

Well said. LUCK is very much underestimated and I have heard 101 ways that make a team successful. I see no sure fire way to a Stanley Cup. Sure there is ways to up your chances but there are so many variables all you can do is take every opportunity to make your team better whenever the opportunity arises.

I can't see a business that stops selling a product for 4-5 years and then all of a sudden the people are going to come flocking back just dying to buy seasons tickets and buying tshirts, jerseys etc. when that much time has elapsed. Some CDCers believe this is the path the team MUST follow to be successful.

Not plausible or even possible when the goal is for the business to make money.

Loved the Sedins in their hayday but they seriously hung on too long and I guess the team is guilty of being too loyal to them and hence this "rebuild" thing took a little longer.

They are gone now and I can really have hope that a new approach(JB 's vision) can be applied and the team starts heading towards the playoffs.

The stagnant/stale era has ended and now the new fast paced, work hard, full of character team will hopefully emerge from all of this.

[Watchincanucks]

10 minutes ago, bree2 said:

so we should all believe burke?

 

Well Burke drafted Chris Pronger, both Sedins, won the Stanley cup. Was a President and/or Gm and has been in the league over 20 years. Yes I value his opinion more than yours or Bennings or Greens, or any other person who seems to think having a young team is bad. My example of Toronto, New Jersey, Colorado and Boston who all had at least 3 rookies in their lineups in last 2 years at one time, shows you can win while rebuilding and not going out signing expensive 4th line players to multi year contracts. Rebuilds are not done that way. The Lappy malholtra Torres type were not signed as expensive free agents on long term deals. If Beagle and Roussel were signed to 2 year deals fine. If they get outplayed by youth and they lose their spots no big deal. They will not lose their spots no matter how badly they play for at least 60-70 games, and even then might be given more leeway.

[mikeyman109]

34 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Well guess the rebuild through free agency will be the next rage in the nhl. Said nobody ever. Drafting and developing players and them joining the previous core is how teams win. Sedins are gone and we missed that window. Free agency you go out and add the final piece, you don’t start signing 4th line free agents. Brian Burke at the draft said if a first round pick doesn’t make the team within 3 years it’s a wasted pick, everyone hear seems to think no player should make it in 3 years. Dahlen Pettersson Demko Juolevi Gaudette are ready, they’ve been developed properly. That Benning has not prepared for this is a mistake. 5 players competing for 2 spots is competition, competing for zero is a joke.

I think you rebuild through what you have to work with is the rage. Teams that have not established their new core have to find players to become that. Horvat and Boeser are a start. Petterson Dahlen, Lind, Hughes, Woo and Juolevi may be part of the new core. That will not stop the need for character players Like the Torres and Lapierre types that made us that much better in 2011

Beagle Rousell and Schaller did not stop any young prospect from making this team. Palmu is not going to be a tough guy. the fourth line wasn't there to provide the pushback.last year and its not there to be a place keeper for top 6 forwards that are not ready. Top 6 that are not ready will start in Utica. Until they are ready they stay there.

The players who are blocking top 6 youngsters from making this team are well noted and Benning has said he is willing to move them if need be. Eriksson and Gagnerare the two most obvious.

 

[mikeyman109]

Just now, Watchincanucks said:

Well Burke drafted Chris Pronger, both Sedins, won the Stanley cup. Was a President and/or Gm and has been in the league over 20 years. Yes I value his opinion more than yours or Bennings or Greens, or any other person who seems to think having a young team is bad. My example of Toronto, New Jersey, Colorado and Boston who all had at least 3 rookies in their lineups in last 2 years at one time, shows you can win while rebuilding and not going out signing expensive 4th line players to multi year contracts. Rebuilds are not done that way. The Lappy malholtra Torres type were not signed as expensive free agents on long term deals. If Beagle and Roussel were signed to 2 year deals fine. If they get outplayed by youth and they lose their spots no big deal. They will not lose their spots no matter how badly they play for at least 60-70 games, and even then might be given more leeway.

Burke also Drafted the other Pronger brother and that didnt work out so well

Burke traded for Pronger in the Anaheim days but most of the team was built by the Murray brothers, all he did was take advantage of a bad Edmonton situation.thats how they won the cup> All credit to the Murrays

Torres and Lappy were signing on to a team that was going to challenge for the cup and didnt ask for more money or term to do it.

[Watchincanucks]

Yes Gagner and Eriksson are great examples of previous years free agents mistakes being compounded by current mistakes. There are 12 roster spots for forwards, no matter what that won’t change. For the record the Roussel signing I can live with, but all 3 combined is very hard to stomach. He provides toughness which was lacking. Sutter could have been moved to forth if Pettersson and Gaudette earn it, now I don’t see how they could in any scenario except trade. Benning has not proven to be at all effective at making trades.

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Well Burke drafted Chris Pronger, both Sedins, won the Stanley cup. Was a President and/or Gm and has been in the league over 20 years. Yes I value his opinion more than yours or Bennings or Greens, or any other person who seems to think having a young team is bad. My example of Toronto, New Jersey, Colorado and Boston who all had at least 3 rookies in their lineups in last 2 years at one time, shows you can win while rebuilding and not going out signing expensive 4th line players to multi year contracts. Rebuilds are not done that way. The Lappy malholtra Torres type were not signed as expensive free agents on long term deals. If Beagle and Roussel were signed to 2 year deals fine. If they get outplayed by youth and they lose their spots no big deal. They will not lose their spots no matter how badly they play for at least 60-70 games, and even then might be given more leeway.

Benning and Green are currently employed by NHL teams, while Burke is not. 

 

Malhotra was also not signed to a 3 year deal, which isn't that far off from what people are complaining about.  Come to think about it, people were moaning about that contract as well.  Bringing these guys in allows Green to set up the young players for success.  Setting them up for failure is what teams such as Edmonton are doing.  The rookies will get plenty of chances once injuries hit as they do every year,

[mikeyman109]

2 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Yes Gagner and Eriksson are great examples of previous years free agents mistakes being compounded by current mistakes. There are 12 roster spots for forwards, no matter what that won’t change. For the record the Roussel signing I can live with, but all 3 combined is very hard to stomach. He provides toughness which was lacking. Sutter could have been moved to forth if Pettersson and Gaudette earn it, now I don’t see how they could in any scenario except trade. Benning has not proven to be at all effective at making trades.

I dont think Benning is great at trades either however he has signed what we needed which was some defensive minded forwards and they do not take away spots from any top six prospects we have , Horvat, Virtanen, Boeser and Petterson appear to be 4 of the top 6 Eriksson Sutter and Gagner bottom 9. How does that not leave 2 spots for competition?

Also if another 2 outplay Gagner and Eriksson  then they will be moved.

I dont mind the signings of Beagle and Schaller. I dont like the 4 years on Beagle but i understand why it had to be done. no cup contention, no break on the term or money.

Its a trade off. Im glad they are on the team

[Where'd Luongo?]

4 hours ago, gurn said:

Two had NMC and one has a NTC,  please explain how/where you would move them if they said "no"

 

3 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Wrong, Edler and the Sedin’s have said they have NO interest in waiving their clauses ergo, they can not be moved...

You are very naive if you think players can't be convinced to give a list of teams they'll take a trade to. 

[Watchincanucks]

Well Goldobin Leipsic Baertschi Granlund Horvat Boeser Virtanen Sutter Gagner Eriksson Beagle Schaller Roussel, and that’s 13 forwards. Still no Pettersson Gaudette Dahlen which I would love to see all 3 make the team. If they do that means we lose Goldobin or Leipsic on waivers or we are left waiting for Benning to trade a vet, which is not ideal imo. I would rather see a year of Goldobin in the nhl, show what he can do, than chasing a few more wins with Beagle. Does not matter who makes the team something needs to happen before the season starts at a time Benning will have no leverage, any return will be underwhelming.

[canuck73_3]

13 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

 

You are very naive if you think players can't be convinced to give a list of teams they'll take a trade to. 

Not every player will waive their NTC 

 

see: 

Mats Sundin

Dan Hamhuis

Alex Edler

Daniel Sedin 

Henrik Sedin

 

and you're very naive to think any player can be convinced to do so. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sedins-say-dont-want-play-anywhere-vancouver/sn-amp/

 

they literally said it numerous times, so no they would not have fetched us picks because they wouldn't agree to a trade, why is that so bloody hard to understand?