Is the Current Ownership Failing this Team?

[appleboy]

1 hour ago, Watchincanucks said:

We have been missing speed skill scoring young players. Yes there will be growing pains, but getting youth in is more important than expensive vets. They keep saying build through the draft and end up being the most active teams in free agency.

A ) You need to ice a team.

You don't want to rush the kids . Extra time in the A will not hurt them.

C) We don't have anyone in our system to fill that role that the 3 UFA 's will take care of.

[Hamhuis Hip Check]

35 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

 

You are very naive if you think players can't be convinced to give a list of teams they'll take a trade to. 

Great message to send to the prospects too, i think they saw how the sedims were handled and it made them respect the team more

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, Watchincanucks said:

Well guess the rebuild through free agency will be the next rage in the nhl. Said nobody ever. Drafting and developing players and them joining the previous core is how teams win. Sedins are gone and we missed that window. Free agency you go out and add the final piece, you don’t start signing 4th line free agents. Brian Burke at the draft said if a first round pick doesn’t make the team within 3 years it’s a wasted pick, everyone hear seems to think no player should make it in 3 years. Dahlen Pettersson Demko Juolevi Gaudette are ready, they’ve been developed properly. That Benning has not prepared for this is a mistake. 5 players competing for 2 spots is competition, competing for zero is a joke.

Its all about balance you cannot have too much of one or the other. You need veteran leadership/character on a team and I would much rather have the ones we have now then the ones prior. We did not have it(veteran leadership/character) and now we do because we live in the cap era of hockey and we now have cap space. There are plenty of examples of young teams who lack this and they are not successful because of it.

This team has showed if you can play your way on the team they will find a way to make it happen. Its not an exact science but I believe the team at least has the want to make it happen.

I think you should at least see how the team does for a few games before you say its a failure.

[TheNewGM]

On 7/27/2018 at 3:37 PM, mikeyman109 said:

Can you give examples of what you would have had them do different? the team has been on the decline since 2011. What would you have done differently. Other than Not sign LE which we all agree was a bad signing. Contracts were offered and signed based on the market value at the time. Ok if you don't like the Beagle Rousell signings but who would you have signed instead?

I would not have signed anyone. OR IF - I had to fill roster spots I would have signed equally washed up players for 1 or 2 year deals for CHEAP.. Hey It may sound bad to sign cheap players.. BECAUSE WE THINK A MATS SUNDIN SIGNING IS GONNA SAVE OUR TEAM RIGHT ? Like Messier and Sundin, it doesnt matter what washed up over paid free agent you sign. This team is a bottom feeder. We should be embracing who we are = a team rebuilding. I would have traded every player I could have since 2011 for a draft pick or a decent prospect and lose in style so we can get a good draft lottery spot.. Sure we may have lost the roll everytime like we did anyway , but our general chances would have been better. Our cap would be OPEN for every player we could possibly need to sign and have no worries what so ever about CAP SPACE!!!!!. Its unbelievable to me really.. But hey .. The Canucks management doesnt want to be the absolute worst ,. so they spend to the cap and ruin the team for years so we can finish in 25th last instead of dead last 30th .. If we are not a playoff team, It doesnt matter how much points we get in a season.

 

Now we are a bad team, and we dont even have much cap space.. what a joke.!!! ( sure its not my money) but because of salary caps.. It kind ia all our money.. Its the teams money. And this is OUR TEAM???

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, TheNewGM said:

I would not have signed anyone. OR IF - I had to fill roster spots I would have signed equally washed up players for 1 or 2 year deals for CHEAP.. Hey It may sound bad to sign cheap players.. BECAUSE WE THINK A MATS SUNDIN SIGNING IS GONNA SAVE OUR TEAM RIGHT ? Like Messier and Sundin, it doesnt matter what washed up over paid free agent you sign. This team is a bottom feeder. We should be embracing who we are = a team rebuilding. I would have traded every player I could have since 2011 for a draft pick or a decent prospect and lose in style so we can get a good draft lottery spot.. Sure we may have lost the roll everytime like we did anyway , but our general chances would have been better. Our cap would be OPEN for every player we could possibly need to sign and have no worries what so ever about CAP SPACE!!!!!. Its unbelievable to me really.. But hey .. The Canucks management doesnt want to be the absolute worst ,. so they spend to the cap and ruin the team for years so we can finish in 25th last instead of dead last 30th .. If we are not a playoff team, It doesnt matter how much points we get in a season.

 

Now we are a bad team, and we dont even have much cap space.. what a joke.!!! ( sure its not my money) but because of salary caps.. It kind ia all our money.. Its the teams money. And this is OUR TEAM???

I hear what you’re saying, but you got to admit that in these last two drafts we still got the best players even drafting at (5) Pettersson and (7) Hughes.  We likely take those two even if we draft first; they are that amazing.  

[canucksnihilist]

The path JB is taking is a unique one.   Basically do a strong consistent retool.

 

what could we have done differently?  To do a full rebuild?   That is obvious:

 

1. Trade players at the deadline for picks after 2013/14 when it was obvious we weren’t going to win a cup.   Or 14/15, whenever you think I guess

2. Use cap space to stockpile young players by taking on albatross contracts if we have to.

3. Don’t trade picks for established players.  The picks / prospects have a higher ceiling

4. Don’t fill your team with aging FA.  Fill it with young FA or young tough players if that is the role you want.   The old guys can’t “get there” anymore so they will play poorly by the ends of their contracts for sure.   Young cheaper tough guys would play about the same - but for cheaper and with more (read some!) upside - there is no upside to the FAs being signed 

 

to to do the continuous retool just do what JB has already been doing.   I bet his idea is to keep the influx of young players coming at a slow pace.  He can only do that cause he drafts so well and can find a star like Boeser at the end of the first round... not many other GMs would even dream of doing that - they would go safe and do a full rebuild.

 

JBs plan - the continuous retool - can work!  And there is obvious pain until the team starts to be competitive.   His plan is how you make the playoffs for 20 straight years.  Like Detroit.   We will see!  It’s a huge risk but if it works it will be super fun to have seen it all.  The ultimate success depends on if we get enough star players through the draft

[canucksnihilist]

All that said...  this year we are not going to make the playoffs.   So we can keep team tank rolling I guess.   The only way I am onboard the tank is if we cheer for individual successes - cause it is those individual successes that will lead us out of the tank mentality

 

is this coming season the last one where we have a decent chance at FOA?  Is this our last chance for who knows how long?   We might have 2/3 years left but probably this coming season is our only LOA and a best shot percentage wise.

 

really the team could use a FOA.   I’ll start praying to goats and pigs and bunny rabbits or whatever I have to do to make it happen.  I’ll let you know how that works out....

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

 

You are very naive if you think players can't be convinced to give a list of teams they'll take a trade to. 

you did not answer the question:

 

please explain how/where you would move them if they said "no"

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[Odjick_fan]

6 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Hey hey hey now...none of that.  Please review the my rules:

 

 

Well played my friend. Well played lol

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 hours ago, canuck73_3 said:

Not every player will waive their NTC 

 

see: 

Mats Sundin

Dan Hamhuis

Alex Edler

Daniel Sedin 

Henrik Sedin

 

and you're very naive to think any player can be convinced to do so. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/sedins-say-dont-want-play-anywhere-vancouver/sn-amp/

 

they literally said it numerous times, so no they would not have fetched us picks because they wouldn't agree to a trade, why is that so bloody hard to understand? 

Actually they said they'd prefer to stay but if the Canucks wanted to trade them that they would be willing to go. 

 

P.s. that article was from 2017.

[Where'd Luongo?]

50 minutes ago, gurn said:

you did not answer the question:

 

please explain how/where you would move them if they said "no"

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You tell them that you want to trade them. Very few will stay on a team that doesn't want them when they have complete control of where they'd go. Can you imagine that especially in Vancouver? Fans alone would run them out of town if they did that. 

 

If a guy really tries that hard to handcuff the team, send him to the minors. (Allowed with a no trade clause)

[Watchincanucks]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I hear what you’re saying, but you got to admit that in these last two drafts we still got the best players even drafting at (5) Pettersson and (7) Hughes.  We likely take those two even if we draft first; they are that amazing.  

Sorry but no. Pettersson maybe although I think the Canucks were really high on Makar. But we take Dahlin no question over Hughes. No person that knows anything about hockey had anyone other than Dahlin or Svechnikov going first, with Dahlin being virtually consensus first pick for most if not all season. Hughes is a great prospect but that is a total homer thing to say.

 

For those that keep making top 6 bottom 6 argument is crap. There are players throughout the league that are 2 way players that play 4th line roles. I would take a good 2 way player on the 4th line any day, over a defensive specialist. Gaudette for instance is known as just that. He is projected as a third line centre. Anyone saying he needs to play top 6 is delusional. His offensive game is just not there, but is tenacious, physical, with good speed and can contribute offensively. Beagle absolutely can block his spot in the lineup, and most likely does without trading Sutter. Sutter being what Benning described as foundational does not lead me to believe that happens any time soon. Beagle is signed for four years, Sutter for 3 more. If Horvat and Pettersson are top 2 centres and Sutter and Beagle are bottom 2 Gaudette does not make the team. No Gaudette is not going to learn the wing at the nhl level just to make the team, he is a centre which we need him to be. 

 

People are gonna say Pettersson is not ready to play centre at the nhl level. Benning has said repeatedly that he projects as a playmaking centre. Play him there! The reason people say that, is he did not play centre in Sweden except a handful of games, then he plays wing this year and next year they say he’s a better winger, or he has no nhl experience at centre. Well give it to him now while we are not expected to do much! Galchenyuk got same treatment in nhl, playing the wing is not the same, need reps at centre. The longer that takes to get them the less familiar it becomes. If he’s not ready for centre then he starts in AHL, though I hate that idea, if they want him at centre that is where he should play.

[Gurn]

3 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

You tell them that you want to trade them. Very few will stay on a team that doesn't want them when they have complete control of where they'd go. Can you imagine that especially in Vancouver? Fans alone would run them out of town if they did that. 

Some do stay, for some folk no does mean no.

classless move to ask someone to waive a NTC anyway.

[Where'd Luongo?]

2 minutes ago, gurn said:

Some do stay, for some folk no does mean no.

classless move to ask someone to waive a NTC anyway.

No, it's how you rebuild actually. It's a business, no room for snowflakes. 

[Gaudette Celly]

2 minutes ago, gurn said:

Some do stay, for some folk no does mean no.

classless move to ask someone to waive a NTC anyway.

Benning don't give two poops 'bout dat.  Garrison, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Burrows, Hansen, and Higgins as well if he'd had any trade value.

[EdgarM]

7 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Sorry but no. Pettersson maybe although I think the Canucks were really high on Makar. But we take Dahlin no question over Hughes. No person that knows anything about hockey had anyone other than Dahlin or Svechnikov going first, with Dahlin being virtually consensus first pick for most if not all season. Hughes is a great prospect but that is a total homer thing to say.

 

For those that keep making top 6 bottom 6 argument is crap. There are players throughout the league that are 2 way players that play 4th line roles. I would take a good 2 way player on the 4th line any day, over a defensive specialist. Gaudette for instance is known as just that. He is projected as a third line centre. Anyone saying he needs to play top 6 is delusional. His offensive game is just not there, but is tenacious, physical, with good speed and can contribute offensively. Beagle absolutely can block his spot in the lineup, and most likely does without trading Sutter. Sutter being what Benning described as foundational does not lead me to believe that happens any time soon. Beagle is signed for four years, Sutter for 3 more. If Horvat and Pettersson are top 2 centres and Sutter and Beagle are bottom 2 Gaudette does not make the team. No Gaudette is not going to learn the wing at the nhl level just to make the team, he is a centre which we need him to be. 

 

People are gonna say Pettersson is not ready to play centre at the nhl level. Benning has said repeatedly that he projects as a playmaking centre. Play him there! The reason people say that, is he did not play centre in Sweden except a handful of games, then he plays wing this year and next year they say he’s a better winger, or he has no nhl experience at centre. Well give it to him now while we are not expected to do much! Galchenyuk got same treatment in nhl, playing the wing is not the same, need reps at centre. The longer that takes to get them the less familiar it becomes. If he’s not ready for centre then he starts in AHL, though I hate that idea, if they want him at centre that is where he should play.

I believe you are not seeing it as a GM who is making additions to his team via FA's and I believe you are underestimating what the FA's are going to bring to the table.

JB had a limited amount of FA's to pick from and probably a smaller list who were actually agreeing to talk to him. I believe he was looking for a veteran presence who can skate, play defensively and have a little push back. Something our past veterans were missing. 

Yes Gaudette may be that type player eventually but I think you are a bit premature in thinking he is ready to tackle that role right off the bat. Who knows he may surprise and JB trades Beagle or Sutter to a contender at the deadline. Nothing is written in stone.

There is a lot of questions to answer, especially when the season hasn't even started, but I believe they will answer themselves as the season progresses.

[Gurn]

27 minutes ago, Where'd Luongo? said:

No, it's how you rebuild actually. It's a business, no room for snowflakes. 

The same business that saved millions by granting a NTC then reneges. Classless, reflects poorly on the organization and makes it harder to get people to sign with the team.

[Gurn]

27 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Benning don't give two poops 'bout dat.  Garrison, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Burrows, Hansen, and Higgins as well if he'd had any trade value.

Benning should have cared. 

 

I guess I'm just from a different era, or read to many Louis Lamour westerns, but to me; my word is important, behind only my family.

 

 

 Edit to add.    I wouldn't have given any of those players other than the twins NTC.

[Watchincanucks]

10 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I believe you are not seeing it as a GM who is making additions to his team via FA's and I believe you are underestimating what the FA's are going to bring to the table.

JB had a limited amount of FA's to pick from and probably a smaller list who were actually agreeing to talk to him. I believe he was looking for a veteran presence who can skate, play defensively and have a little push back. Something our past veterans were missing. 

Yes Gaudette may be that type player eventually but I think you are a bit premature in thinking he is ready to tackle that role right off the bat. Who knows he may surprise and JB trades Beagle or Sutter to a contender at the deadline. Nothing is written in stone.

There is a lot of questions to answer, especially when the season hasn't even started, but I believe they will answer themselves as the season progresses.

Then he should not have brought Gaudette in at end of year, burning a year, which turns into 2 if he plays in AHL. Why is it that every free agent has leverage over Benning, can’t he move on? Riley Nash signed for less term and money, but has higher upside. Sutter could have filled in or Granlund or Gagner or Schaller, we had options and so did he. Maybe it was ownership saying do whatever it takes to get your guy, but Beagle should not have been his guy at that term or money. Bad management of assets and contracts!

[EdgarM]

3 minutes ago, Watchincanucks said:

Then he should not have brought Gaudette in at end of year, burning a year, which turns into 2 if he plays in AHL. Why is it that every free agent has leverage over Benning, can’t he move on? Riley Nash signed for less term and money, but has higher upside. Sutter could have filled in or Granlund or Gagner or Schaller, we had options and so did he. Maybe it was ownership saying do whatever it takes to get your guy, but Beagle should not have been his guy at that term or money. Bad management of assets and contracts!

Like I said the season hasn't even started yet so I believe its a bit premature to say whether he was a good pick up or not or whether he is worth what we paid for him. What did Wilson get like 30 million? We will find out soon enough one way or another.