[Proposal] Gagner & Del Zotto

[IBatch]

Or it means you try a pro out in the big leagues to see what he can do, if it doesn't work then send him back, or extend it like we did with Goldobin last year (when he had the luxury of nobody breathing down his neck, unlike this year where others can't wait for their turn)..it's not about burning a year of his ELC because that's irrelevant, it's about a sample size small enough to get a whif if he can make it, needs more time or his cup of coffee is all he will get (for now).  Palmu is a very long shot at this point, most times they don't work out, but sometimes they do and they make it impossible for a team to send them back down.  

[kloubek]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

If truly equal, you obviously keep Goldy.   If Gagner is as bad as many of you say and Goldy cannot outplay him, why do you want him?

One word: Potential.

 

Goldobin has shown that he has it in him to be a top six guy.  He needs better consistency offensively, and needs to work on his defense in a big way.  

 

With Gagner, we know what his potential is.  It's a 3rd line guy who can play at a 2nd line level when he *wants* to.  Who knows - Goldobin might end up no better and likely actually even worse than Gagner.  To be fair, he may be a late bloomer or might not have it in him at all to play at the NHL level.  But he DOES have that potential and if there was even a slight chance we might have a 2nd liner here, I'd rather not squander it because we were impatient.

As far as people saying Gagner is "that bad", I do disagree.  No, he isn't "good", but 31 points is 31 points.  Without the Sedins he may have even more PP opportunity so he may very well get up to around 40 points again this coming season.  For a team that will likely be starved for scoring, that isn't insignificant.  No, I don't want him to take ice time away from our young guys either but I think there is a balance to be had here.

 

Let's not forget, guys, that a team is made up of  23 players total with 3 watching.  The leaves as many as 2 extra forward spots open so our glut isn't really THAT bad.  As others have said, we'll probably have to put Gaunce on waivers but we can carry most of the forwards we are expecting.  It's if guys like the Palmu's, Lind's, and Dahlen's surprise that we might need to make room, but that will be aided by our annual injury drive so we might still be ok.

[Rob_Zepp]

Just now, kloubek said:

One word: Potential.

 

Goldobin has shown that he has it in him to be a top six guy.  He needs better consistency offensively, and needs to work on his defense in a big way.  

 

With Gagner, we know what his potential is.  It's a 3rd line guy who can play at a 2nd line level when he *wants* to.  Who knows - Goldobin might end up no better and likely actually even worse than Gagner.  To be fair, he may be a late bloomer or might not have it in him at all to play at the NHL level.  But he DOES have that potential and if there was even a slight chance we might have a 2nd liner here, I'd rather not squander it because we were impatient.

As far as people saying Gagner is "that bad", I do disagree.  No, he isn't "good", but 31 points is 31 points.  Without the Sedins he may have even more PP opportunity so he may very well get up to around 40 points again this coming season.  For a team that will likely be starved for scoring, that isn't insignificant.  No, I don't want him to take ice time away from our young guys either but I think there is a balance to be had here.

 

Let's not forget, guys, that a team is made up of  23 players total with 3 watching.  The leaves as many as 2 extra forward spots open so our glut isn't really THAT bad.  As others have said, we'll probably have to put Gaunce on waivers but we can carry most of the forwards we are expecting.  It's if guys like the Palmu's, Lind's, and Dahlen's surprise that we might need to make room, but that will be aided by our annual injury drive so we might still be ok.

Potential is great - and coaches will take that into account but at some point, potential without any sign of reaching it has to trigger a "bye bye".  I  am Goldy fan and think he is one of the most talented players on the team BUT he needs to bring it this year to camp and show that his great potential is being realized.   I am not sure how this has become a Goldy versus Gagner thing but, again, IF any young player cannot outplay Gagner - do they really belong in the NHL?

[kloubek]

20 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Potential is great - and coaches will take that into account but at some point, potential without any sign of reaching it has to trigger a "bye bye".  I  am Goldy fan and think he is one of the most talented players on the team BUT he needs to bring it this year to camp and show that his great potential is being realized.   I am not sure how this has become a Goldy versus Gagner thing but, again, IF any young player cannot outplay Gagner - do they really belong in the NHL?

He's still young.  I always use Grabner as an example.  We gave up on him and so did Florida.  Then he all of a sudden bloomed.  We saw what potential he had back when we had him but figured it would not materialize into a consistent game but while I think he's still streaky, Grabner is indeed an NHL player.  

 

I see even more potential in Goldobin.  So it would be a shame to give up on that too early.  With that said, you're absolutely right; at some point you need to cut ties if it isn't going in the right direction. While I would want to keep him around for another year based on his potential, if he doesn't bring it in training camp I would not at all be surprised to see him let go in some manner.

[babalu]

3 hours ago, kloubek said:

He's still young.  I always use Grabner as an example.  We gave up on him and so did Florida.  Then he all of a sudden bloomed.  We saw what potential he had back when we had him but figured it would not materialize into a consistent game but while I think he's still streaky, Grabner is indeed an NHL player.  

 

I see even more potential in Goldobin.  So it would be a shame to give up on that too early.  With that said, you're absolutely right; at some point you need to cut ties if it isn't going in the right direction. While I would want to keep him around for another year based on his potential, if he doesn't bring it in training camp I would not at all be surprised to see him let go in some manner.

I agree. I think Grabner is a good comparable. Is too much made of how a player shows at camp? It's quite a short period to assess a player and if vets like Gagner have great camps do we keep them just for the sake of a good couple weeks. Not saying that if Goldy comes to camp with conditioning issues etc that he should be given a free pass. However if she shows well enough doesn't it make more sense to keep him based on his age and potential.

[J.I.A.H.N]

14 hours ago, babalu said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. This is a forum. People have differing opinions. We aren't going to always agree.

 

My opinion hasn't been changed. I still think I would prefer to see Goldobin in the lineup over Gagner for the very reason you said. Goldobin is close in skill right now to Gagner and still has room for improvement.

Me too! Please don't get me wrong, I personally want opinions, and of course they may be different....I support that

But ….and maybe not in this case, but in some cases, you have to be flexible enough to have your mind changed, or at least see

the others point of view...…..I think most on here are that way, if a good argument is given......

But I have been swayed from time to time, and that is my only point......be open minded......

I believe Rob is, and Joe is a rock of wisdom, so take that as you would like.....

and again welcome...… hope we can debate something some day......

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

If truly equal, you obviously keep Goldy.   If Gagner is as bad as many of you say and Goldy cannot outplay him, why do you want him?

BECAUSE ROB! LOL

 

No seriously, if Benning feels Goldy has not reached his ceiling and they are equal.....Goldy should win, just on best business practices alone.

 

I seriously question Gagner's contribution...…….if there are even any? Maybe this year he proves me wrong! 

[babalu]

14 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

BECAUSE ROB! LOL

 

No seriously, if Benning feels Goldy has not reached his ceiling and they are equal.....Goldy should win, just on best business practices alone.

 

I seriously question Gagner's contribution...…….if there are even any? Maybe this year he proves me wrong! 

I honestly don't think Gagner is that bad. I just think Goldy has higher upside and fits with the youth movement going forward.

[Alflives]

31 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

BECAUSE ROB! LOL

 

No seriously, if Benning feels Goldy has not reached his ceiling and they are equal.....Goldy should win, just on best business practices alone.

 

I seriously question Gagner's contribution...…….if there are even any? Maybe this year he proves me wrong! 

Does Goldy score enough to compensate for his very poor defensive play?  That’s going determine his NHL future.  I see Goldy in the KHL next season. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 hours ago, Alflives said:

Does Goldy score enough to compensate for his very poor defensive play?  That’s going determine his NHL future.  I see Goldy in the KHL next season. 

You could be right Alf

But, I am sure glad no one thought my career was over at 22

I had not even sobered up yet!

[Hairy Kneel]

I have a feeling Palmu or Gaudette or Gadjo will be making that decision for Goldy and Gagner

They can soft step it to the SHL or the KHL or wherever

[The Lock]

On 2018-07-29 at 1:54 AM, Drakrami said:

Pretty good trade. Too bad Benning wont do it, he thinks that we need veteran presence; pretty evident with all the signings he does each year. 

Because a bunch of kids without guidance from players who have been successful is totally ideal. 

 

Perhaps we should let 16 year olds learn to drive all on their own and just hand them their license while we're at it.

 

On a more serious note, I kind of look at needing veteran support as a no brainer. When you don't have that support it generally leads to disaster as it did in Edmonton when they tried to let the 1st rounders take the bull by the horns and then blame happened for no one being "accountable". If you don't provide the right guidance to teach accountability how can you expect them to be accountable?

[higgyfan]

On 30/07/2018 at 4:46 PM, Alflives said:

Does Goldy score enough to compensate for his very poor defensive play?  That’s going determine his NHL future.  I see Goldy in the KHL next season. 

But is he any worse than Gags?  I'm not a huge Goldy fan, but I hope that he is given a fair chance to make the team.  It often takes the offensively minded players to adjust to the defensive expectations in the NHL.  One thing for sure, is that he needs to be on a line with  at least one defensively minded linemate. 

 

If he passes through waivers, I'd love to see him on this line...  Gaunce  Gaudette  Goldy   I think he could learn a thing or two from those guys ).

[babalu]

2 hours ago, The Lock said:

Because a bunch of kids without guidance from players who have been successful is totally ideal. 

 

Perhaps we should let 16 year olds learn to drive all on their own and just hand them their license while we're at it.

 

On a more serious note, I kind of look at needing veteran support as a no brainer. When you don't have that support it generally leads to disaster as it did in Edmonton when they tried to let the 1st rounders take the bull by the horns and then blame happened for no one being "accountable". If you don't provide the right guidance to teach accountability how can you expect them to be accountable?

Because removing Gagner and Del Zotto we would only have 10-12 vets left on the team for support

[The Lock]

4 hours ago, babalu said:

Because removing Gagner and Del Zotto we would only have 10-12 vets left on the team for support

I'm more referring to the passive aggressive quote that Drakrami made in regard to Benning hiring vets. Curious though, what are we defining here as a vet? Is there some magical age where one goes "they are a vet" or is it if they are not a rookie they are a vet?

 

I'm asking this because Del Zotto and Gagner are both 28 years old. A little incoherent in terms of logic is it not? For the record, I can see Gagner being swept under the rug somehow but Del Zotto is one of our best defensemen...

 

[babalu]

10 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I'm more referring to the passive aggressive quote that Drakrami made in regard to Benning hiring vets. Curious though, what are we defining here as a vet? Is there some magical age where one goes "they are a vet" or is it if they are not a rookie they are a vet?

 

I'm asking this because Del Zotto and Gagner are both 28 years old. A little incoherent in terms of logic is it not? For the record, I can see Gagner being swept under the rug somehow but Del Zotto is one of our best defensemen...

 

Players I would consider vets:

 

Eriksson

Sutter

Gagner

Roussel

Beagle

Schaller

Edler

Tanev

Del Zotto

Biega

Markstrom 

Nilson

 

Throw in Horvat as he will likely be Captain and has leadership skills even though still young.

 

I think we would be fine leadership wise even if let a couple of these guys go.

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, babalu said:

Players I would consider vets:

 

Eriksson

Sutter

Gagner

Roussel

Beagle

Schaller

Edler

Tanev

Del Zotto

Biega

Markstrom 

Nilson

 

Throw in Horvat as he will likely be Captain and has leadership skills even though still young.

 

I think we would be fine leadership wise even if let a couple of these guys go.

Well considering I never said I'd be against letting them go, I'm not going to disagree. However, I think it's also important to understand why each player is there first before doing such a task. It's easy to go "let's get rid of vets" and then later on go "oh... I guess we actually needed him". Obviously someone like Gagner would be whatever, but I think if Del Zotto left, there would be a big hole to fill with a lot of question marks on who would actually be able to fill it right away.

 

Or we could just get rid of Horvat since he's a vet. Who needs him anyway? Pssh!

[babalu]

1 minute ago, The Lock said:

Well considering I never said I'd be against letting them go, I'm not going to disagree. However, I think it's also important to understand why each player is there first before doing such a task. It's easy to go "let's get rid of vets" and then later on go "oh... I guess we actually needed him". Obviously someone like Gagner would be whatever, but I think if Del Zotto left, there would be a big hole to fill with a lot of question marks on who would actually be able to fill it right away.

 

Or we could just get rid of Horvat since he's a vet. Who needs him anyway? Pssh!

Hey, I never said get rid of all the vets. Just a select couple.

[Pete M]

13 hours ago, The Lock said:

Because a bunch of kids without guidance from players who have been successful is totally ideal. 

 

Perhaps we should let 16 year olds learn to drive all on their own and just hand them their license while we're at it.

 

On a more serious note, I kind of look at needing veteran support as a no brainer. When you don't have that support it generally leads to disaster as it did in Edmonton when they tried to let the 1st rounders take the bull by the horns and then blame happened for no one being "accountable". If you don't provide the right guidance to teach accountability how can you expect them to be accountable?

would you now consider Horvat as a veteran...he will be entering into his 5th NHL season, which is the average length of a career.

[coastal.view]

On 7/30/2018 at 10:02 PM, Hairy Kneel said:

I have a feeling Palmu or Gaudette or Gadjo will be making that decision for Goldy and Gagner

They can soft step it to the SHL or the KHL or wherever

i agree with you and would add dahlen as well

 

i really think goldy better worry most about dahlen (or another young talent) leapfrogging him

and beating him and gagner out for a line up spot

dahlen brings high skill level, a better 2 way game, high compete level, and is a solid tough player

 

i really don't understand all the angst about goldy on these boards

if he has not gotten his body and head in the best possible shape for training camp

and is not prepared to overwhelm the coaching staff and management

with his readiness as an nhl player

then his time on this team is done

 

he will then have shown the team

that it is time for the team to invest in a more motivated young talent

we'll all thank you for your time goldy. but go find another team

we have other up and coming young talent that simply want it more