Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Has the Western World Lost Moderate/Centrist Politics?


Rob_Zepp

Recommended Posts

41 minutes ago, Baer. said:

If you are still confused about that statement, I can give context.

 

In 2012, Venezuela banned private gun ownership. Since then, the crime rate has risen.

 

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/383968-in-the-wake-of-a-gun-ban-venezuela-sees-rising-homicide-rate
 

Pro-democracy protesters are being executed, and cannot defend themselves.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-44575599
 

A dictatorship is being born.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/venezuela-elections-nicolas-maduro-wins-second-term

 

Very interesting. But I still maintain that correlation does not equal causation. The increase in crime rate can be attributed to various causes, namely pathetic police enforcement. 

 

I would also say that it seems to me that the solution isn't to arm the victims (protesters) but to find a way to create a society where bloody protesters aren't being executed in the first place! That's the real problem. Take some pain killers - you'll feel better. But yea, you still have aggressive cancer spreading towards your lungs.

Edited by NHL'er
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is the inevitable outcome of a two-party system. You are either with us or one of them, there is no in between.

 

In Canada I would say we have a 3-party system and therefore we tend to politically be more moderate than those south of the border. You could even argue that we are moving to a 4-party system slowly. 

 

Obviously going the other way like China and their sole party system leads to President 4 Life. 

 

So IMO more political views/ways of thinking actually moderates the whole society. So next time someone has an opposing political view be grateful that they do. Encourage them to peacefully and respectfully keep promoting their POV because even though you may not agree with it, it keeps it so that we ALL can express our own political POVs. 

  • Like 1
  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

It is the inevitable outcome of a two-party system. You are either with us or one of them, there is no in between.

 

In Canada I would say we have a 3-party system and therefore we tend to politically be more moderate than those south of the border. You could even argue that we are moving to a 4-party system slowly. 

 

Obviously going the other way like China and their sole party system leads to President 4 Life. 

 

So IMO more political views/ways of thinking actually moderates the whole society. So next time someone has an opposing political view be grateful that they do. Encourage them to peacefully and respectfully keep promoting their POV because even though you may not agree with it, it keeps it so that we ALL can express our own political POVs. 

Aladeen for president!

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, logic said:

The extreme right has been created by the radical left, every day I thank god Killary didn't win

 

Look at the massive conservative wave taking place all over the world, people are sick and tired of this PC society BS. Where if you disagree you're labelled a bigot, nazi, racist, islamaphobe ect ect

 

The Only reason the most of the media media is anti Trump is because they're all owned by Liberals/Democrats..

 

Its okay to be Hollywood pedophile but not to support trump these days lmao

the media is anti trump because they like most people see that Trump is a demagogue and a narcisist, and shouldn't be anywhere near power. No media needed, all you gotta do is look at Trump's words and tweets.

 

Anyone who says "its ok to be a hollywood pedohile" has drank a bit too much of the kool aid. The alt-right doesn't actually care about pedophilia anyways, its just a good issue to get angry about which is what the alt-right is really about - disembodied rage about nothing in particular. For the most part people on the left hold their partisans to account, while the right for the most part does not.

 

For the most part PC means being a decent person. Do you think that people on the left don't get shouted down and called names by people on the right? Why does the existence of these people mean that being decent to others is wrong?

  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Aladeen for president!

Democratically Elected for life!!

 

The ballots look like this:

 

General Admiral Aladeen  

Quick Execution    

Slow Torture then Execution 

 

 

I make sure to always give at least three choices so I can get a sense of how the peasants really feel... you would be surprised at how few pick the third option. 

  • Haha 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Todays political theater is essentially Soccer Fandom in the UK

s

You can be left (man u)

You can be right (man city)

 

But you cannot sit and cheer for just your city.

 

I launched in to a massive long winded explanation of the evils of both parties and the idiocy that supports them.  But there is no point.  Their history is common knowledge and easy to find.

 

In the west and in western democracies you cannot have centrists anymore because the media, the people and the ruling elite refuse to allow it to happen.  A centrist is a person who has yet to be labeled for their actions and it is stupid.  To many willing to villify a person without looking at their actions.  You're either left or right.  Black or white.  There is no grey anymore and people will not let you cheer for your home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

Democratically Elected for life!!

 

The ballots look like this:

 

General Admiral Aladeen  

Quick Execution    

Slow Torture then Execution 

 

 

I make sure to always give at least three choices so I can get a sense of how the peasants really feel... you would be surprised at how few pick the third option. 

Made my day. Thank you from your Supreme Leader

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

The crime, violent crime, and murder rates in Venezuela have been rising since the start of the Bolivarian Revolution. And yes, the rates continued to go up after 2012. But the rate of increase was actually greater before 2012, and has somewhat decreased since. 

 

Now personally, I would never use crime rates from a failed state to make an argument (either pro or anti) about gun control. 

 

I’d much rather look at research like this:

https://academic.oup.com/epirev/article/38/1/140/2754868

 

The above is systematic review of 130 studies, from 10 countries, over a 64 year period.

 

The results are clear: gun control saves lives.

I appreciate the excellent and thorough reference material, SID.

Edited by PhillipBlunt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, butters said:

the media is anti trump because they like most people see that Trump is a demagogue and a narcisist, and shouldn't be anywhere near power. No media needed, all you gotta do is look at Trump's words and tweets.

 

Anyone who says "its ok to be a hollywood pedohile" has drank a bit too much of the kool aid. The alt-right doesn't actually care about pedophilia anyways, its just a good issue to get angry about which is what the alt-right is really about - disembodied rage about nothing in particular. For the most part people on the left hold their partisans to account, while the right for the most part does not.

 

For the most part PC means being a decent person. Do you think that people on the left don't get shouted down and called names by people on the right? Why does the existence of these people mean that being decent to others is wrong?

It's a classic case of "Whataboutism" 

 

I disagree about your point on the alt-right though. I personally believe that for everyone (at least those who aren't pedophiles) believe that pedophillia is perhaps the most evil thing that someone can do and for that very reason it is often used as a whataboutism.

 

Example

 

Trump Lied? Yah well what about crooked Shillary and Podesta? Running a ping-pong and pedo ring under a pizza parlor! I guess you're OK with that.

 

Here we have an example of what someone who supports Trump might say if presented with overwhelming evidence that something Trump said was not the truth.

 

So Point A (Trump Lied) is linked to Point B (Pizza Pedo Ring) even though they are in no way connected.

 

Now once this link is made you have two choices you can keep focus on Point A and be branded as someone who tolerates unspeakable things. Or just shut up because there is no arguing with something that isn't logically linked in the first place so how can your rationally debate it?

 

Now Point B is something that may very well need to be investigated and dealt with if found to be true(which it was and it wasn't) needs to be dealt with no doubt  but it has zero bearing on Point A.

 

"Trump may not be perfect, but at least he's not a Pedo." is basically all this hypothetical Trump supporter is saying.

 

If that is the basis of the qualifications they deem to be necessary for leader of the free world they may in fact need to rethink their beliefs on everything.

 

I feel confident that most everyone can agree (whether someone supports Trump or not) that:

 

Trump is an egomaniac

Trump is not especially intelligent

Trump polarizes the world

Trump often says things that aren't verifiable 

 

In my own opinion a leader should have these qualities:

 

Be humble

Be highly intelligent (quite a bit above average)

Bring people together

Be honest as much as possible

 

Now as far as US politics is concerned I feel the Democratic Party is one of, if not the most evil entities that has ever evolved from their system. Starting from the 1944 Democratic National Convention and what they did to Henry A. Wallace (who had all the qualities that I just mentioned btw) and then again in 2016 what they did to Bernie Sanders(Who I also believe has the qualities of a leader that I listed).

 

Make no mistake Hillary would have been a terrible choice as president, I strongly believe this but that has little to no bearing on the things Trump does.

 

As far as your final note on PCness... it can and has gone too far at times. It seems like anytime anyone else hurts someone's feelings there is a lawsuit or a civil liberties complaint. People a lot of times need to have a thicker skin and realize ignorance and stupidity are not neccesarilly crimes. Decent people can also not be PC a lot of the times.

 

Just as an example I know a very well-to-do elderly english couple. Two of the sweetest most wonderful people you will ever meet. Except when it comes to Muslims. Now it's easy for me to judge them and say they are racists and bigots. Though if I put myself in their shoes, they have lived in London their whole lives in the upper class white community. They have always known their home to be a certain way. And with the advent of muslim immigration, it is now very different than it ever has been before. 

 

Often times their complaints are about the fact that their society must accept, respect and appease the needs and wants of these new immigrants. Now we can all say that yes we should treat everyone else like that but there are several points they bring up. One is that if they were to emigrate to a muslim country they would receive none of that and simply have to conform to their beliefs and customs as theirs won't be tolerated. The other is that a lot of Muslim customs are not compatible with values they had been raised with, such as the subservience of women, which they feel is something that is no longer tolerated in their country.

 

So are they terrible because they believe these things? Are they ignorant? or Do they have valid concerns that should be heard and addressed rather than being told to shut up because they are racists bigots? I honestly don't know.  

 

Sorry for the long read just thinking as I type I suppose. 

Edited by Aladeen
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Imho, there are at least 2 main problems with this missing "centrist" problem:

  • As the OP pointed out, labels mean different things depending on geographical location so defining what is "centrist" is already too tough.
  • In most places, the laws are controlled only by the elected candidates from the main political parties, and each political party try too hard to have a single stance on the biggest issues so that they have a single platform, and they whip or strongly encourage their members to adhere to this platform.

I know so many people who feel disenfranchised in both Canadian and US politics:

  • For universal healthcare (yes, Obamacare) but against abortion unless it endangers the health of the mother.
  • For gun control but against abortion unless it endangers the health of the mother.
  • For gun control but against big government.
  • For gay marriage but against abortion unless it endangers the health of the mother.
  • Anti-Trump and anti-Clinton.
  • Against big government except for essential services such as healthcare.
  • For spending more money on education but against unions.
  • Hates that the president won despite losing the popular vote but afraid of the parliamentary government due to the potentially long time the same person can be a prime minister.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right now we are in the midst of a pendulum swing, due to the continued push for more civil rights, such as the LGBTQmmunity. Any time there's social change movements the Right and Left blow up, but it has to happen before the pendulum slows down and we find middle ground as a society. 

 

Sam Harris (Waking Up podcast) and the intellectual dark web (Google it) have lots to say about this current situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Y'all need to familiarize yourself with Hotelling's theory of voting (/political parties) to understand why democracies will always create extremely polarized groups, focused on a few issues and ignoring most others. The more parties you have, the less dramatic this effect, which also explains why highly consolidated politics of 2-3 parties is so prone to radicalization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another casualty of Social Media I'm afraid.  Instant, often false, information at all hours of the day from your cell phone/computer.  Algorithms that cater your viewing to things that appeal to you or align with your beliefs.  

 

The other way to look at it, is that sometimes these problems aren't as bad as they seem.  Unfortunately the comments sections of most news sources are just breeding grounds for misinformation.  When you have paid posters and bots posting the same garbage all the time, under different aliases, it starts to seem like there is a disproportionately large part of the population with more and more extreme and ignorant views.  

 

I'd like to believe that the majority of the population are still reasonable people with at least a shred of common sense.  

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...