Has the Western World Lost Moderate/Centrist Politics?

[48MPHSlapShot]

18 hours ago, canuckistani said:

Bull$&!#. Taxation is basic part of social contract. Period. You don't have the right to keep 100% of your earnings if you use ANY public resource, period. 

There is no such natural right to lack of social financial contract. 

Again, there is no such natural right. 

It can be. However, with checks and balances and educated systems, it has also yeilded the pinnacles of species homo sapiens' sum total achievement. I cannot think of any more natural justification to social contract than that. 

Irrelevant. Giving examples of social contract's failures does not even begin to justify financial anarchism. 

Strawman argument It has nothing to do with libertarian FAIL on economics. That, is where my beef is with libertarians. 

Except in this case, i can empirically prove, with mathematics, that taxation is a superior system of resource distribution and access than individual freebooting. So yes, love it or leave it - we are a society fundamentally based on the merits of taxation. If you don't want to be part of said society, form your on society, because unlike other ideologies, libertarianism can be proven to be a fail system mathematically. 

You will not get that right, period. There are fundamental obligations to species homo sapiens society. In every single monetized society, taxation is a norm. Just like how you did not consent to being born, this is one of the things about human society, where you don't get to abscond and partake in soceity. 

BS. What goes against collectivism, is libertarian FAIL in refusing the superior system of collectivized taxation by the administrative body of the land. 

There are no absolute property rights when it comes to currency and fiscal earnings. Those are subject to taxation. Absolute property rights exist, within reason of national needs framework, if said nation exits and state of emergency exists, etc. 

Indeed. The libertarian loonies can think what they wish, i suppose. 

Spoken like a true indoctrinated statist. Not making any sort of distinction between a natural act like being born and a ruling body forcing you to give up your property may be the most idiotic, disingenuous strawman justification for robbery that I've ever heard.

 

Your complete and utter disregard of natural rights and your belief in the necessity of a collectivist state speak to the level of your indoctrination. You've been conditioned much in the way that someone in a religious cult is conditioned. It's all you know, and you must defend it with as much vigor as a a blind believer would defend their religion. The actuality that you are yourself a slave to the state is lost on you because you don't have the ability to recognize the fact that you are a slave to the state. You have been indoctrinated your whole life to believe what you are supposed to, to toss justice to the wayside when it suits you, or better yet, your country. The idea that the societal functions that the government takes care of (or rather doesn't) could be taken care of voluntarily doesn't even take root in the brain, as you've been raised to think selfishly by the state over the course of your life.

 

I will say this, your conditioning has obviously been quite effective. So kudos to the state for that.

 

The insane stretches you make in order to justify a system in which each individual is continuously raped of their liberty is quite astounding, especially when systems where liberty is at least somewhat allowed to thrive tend to lead to prosperity, such as the free market system. 

 

But yeah, your complete and utter refusal to acknowledge  basic truths, such as theft being morally wrong, speaks to how complete and thorough your level of indoctrination is. I don't blame you for your lack of values though. I don't blame you for your inconsistencies. I don't blame you for your close mindedness. I blame the state. A state that has morphed and contorted a free thinking human being into a government sponsored puppet. I just hope that one day you're able to cut the strings. 

 

Cheers, mate! 

[canuckistani]

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Spoken like a true indoctrinated statist. Not making any sort of distinction between a natural act like being born and a ruling body forcing you to give up your property may be the most idiotic, disingenuous strawman justification for robbery that I've ever heard.

You didn't choose to be born either. So the whole concept of 'natural act, i participate in ONLY what i choose, else its oppression' is a false dichotomy. By that logic, your entire existence is oppression, since you had zero choice in it. 

 

And there is nothing disingenous about collective need > individual need. If your house happened to sit on the only uranium deposit in the world and the US needed to make a nuke to end WWII (Assuming you are American), it is in everyone's interest - including yours - to have your house demolished and the uranium mined. Period. 

 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

 

Your complete and utter disregard of natural rights and your belief in the necessity of a collectivist state speak to the level of your indoctrination.

There is no indoctrination. As i said, i can prove, via math, that a taxation society is more efficient at all but the top 5% level of resource hogging, in resource management and distribution. This is pure math, bud - the same reason why ultimately the economic ideals of libertarians fail. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

You've been conditioned much in the way that someone in a religious cult is conditioned.

Nope, that is true for you, not me. As i said, i can prove it via math that a taxation system is superior. Period. You are the one speaking from indoctrinated false dichotomies. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

It's all you know, and you must defend it with as much vigor as a a blind believer would defend their religion. The actuality that you are yourself a slave to the state is lost on you because you don't have the ability to recognize the fact that you are a slave to the state.

If having obligations is being a slave, i am A-ok with having obligations. Being part of a society involves obligations that one does not get to opt out of. Period. 

 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

You have been indoctrinated your whole life to believe what you are supposed to, to toss justice to the wayside when it suits you, or better yet, your country.

There is no injustice in the concept of collective taxation. You and libertarians are the ones who operate on a BELIEF SYSTEM that you have some hocus pocus natural rights to opt out of everything. As i pointed out, your entire existence is contradicted by the notion of 'ultimate free will' because your existence itself does not involve your free will to begin with. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

The idea that the societal functions that the government takes care of (or rather doesn't) could be taken care of voluntarily doesn't even take root in the brain, as you've been raised to think selfishly by the state over the course of your life.

No, it doesn't take root, because i can prove that collective services such as infrastructure, justice system, police system, military, etc. ALL work better via  collective tax model, than ' by donation only' model. Again, this is pure and simple math. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

 

I will say this, your conditioning has obviously been quite effective. So kudos to the state for that.

 

The insane stretches you make in order to justify a system in which each individual is continuously raped of their liberty is quite astounding, especially when systems where liberty is at least somewhat allowed to thrive tend to lead to prosperity, such as the free market system. 

The only indoctrination, is from those who believe that they have the ultimate right to free will, when its a fact that nobody consents to being born in the first place. Your life begins without your choice. Period. Ergo, there is no ultimate free will. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

 

But yeah, your complete and utter refusal to acknowledge  basic truths, such as theft being morally wrong, speaks to how complete and thorough your level of indoctrination is.

There is no basic truth to what garbage you are peddling. The libertarian nonsense rests on ignoring the basic truth that life begins without choice - for any species that we know of. Ergo, ultimate free will does not exist. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I don't blame you for your lack of values though. I don't blame you for your inconsistencies.

There are no inconsistencies. My POV is simply based on the mathematical reality that collective services work better via a collective tax system than by donation. This can be mathematically proven. Further, i challenge the notion of 'ultimate and total free will' on the simple basis that no-one's life began with their choice, so our entire basis of existence is not via free will. The only inconsistency, is from the idiots who peddle libertarian nonsense, as a thin veneer for their greed ( i dont wanna pay tax!) who ignore this basic truth. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I don't blame you for your close mindedness. I blame the state. A state that has morphed and contorted a free thinking human being into a government sponsored puppet. I just hope that one day you're able to cut the strings. 

Nonsense. Every society that is monetized has a taxation system - always has, always will have. The only exceptions are the 'tiny resource-ultra rich fiefdoms, where there is no freedom or rights, ruled by a king who doles out the collective benefits, aka infrastructure and such', like the oil rich gulf nations. 

1 hour ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Cheers, mate! 

Cheers !

[Down by the River]

3 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Spoken like a true indoctrinated statist. Not making any sort of distinction between a natural act like being born and a ruling body forcing you to give up your property may be the most idiotic, disingenuous strawman justification for robbery that I've ever heard.

 

Your complete and utter disregard of natural rights and your belief in the necessity of a collectivist state speak to the level of your indoctrination. You've been conditioned much in the way that someone in a religious cult is conditioned. It's all you know, and you must defend it with as much vigor as a a blind believer would defend their religion. The actuality that you are yourself a slave to the state is lost on you because you don't have the ability to recognize the fact that you are a slave to the state. You have been indoctrinated your whole life to believe what you are supposed to, to toss justice to the wayside when it suits you, or better yet, your country. The idea that the societal functions that the government takes care of (or rather doesn't) could be taken care of voluntarily doesn't even take root in the brain, as you've been raised to think selfishly by the state over the course of your life.

 

I will say this, your conditioning has obviously been quite effective. So kudos to the state for that.

 

The insane stretches you make in order to justify a system in which each individual is continuously raped of their liberty is quite astounding, especially when systems where liberty is at least somewhat allowed to thrive tend to lead to prosperity, such as the free market system. 

 

But yeah, your complete and utter refusal to acknowledge  basic truths, such as theft being morally wrong, speaks to how complete and thorough your level of indoctrination is. I don't blame you for your lack of values though. I don't blame you for your inconsistencies. I don't blame you for your close mindedness. I blame the state. A state that has morphed and contorted a free thinking human being into a government sponsored puppet. I just hope that one day you're able to cut the strings. 

 

Cheers, mate! 

I didn't read any of what the guy you quoted said, but the way you're responding to him with the same type of group-speak is making you a bit of a hypocrite. It is like you are some bot programmed to scour Youtube to learn the language and come up with a response. It is just so dramatic and full of assumptions. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Down by the River

[Toews]

2 hours ago, Down by the River said:

I didn't read any of what the guy you quoted said, but the way you're responding to him with the same type of group-speak is making you a bit of a hypocrite. It is like you are some bot programmed to scour Youtube to learn the language and come up with a response. It is just so dramatic and full of assumptions. 

I take it you don't feel continuously raped of your liberty? Me neither but I do occasionally feel violated but that's because I currently live in a province led by Drug Dealin' Doug.

[Rob_Zepp]

Well, as if there wasn't already a great divide, the latest US Democratic rhetoric and the continued insanity from the POTUS has show how wide the gulf really is between these extreme viewpoints and it is hard to find ANYONE in the middle to grasp onto for a semblance of logic.

 

In Europe, things have been this way for a while.

 

In Canada, you have a PM who is seemingly campaigning against himself.    Trudeau is constantly raging on about being against rich, privileged and, often, white men.   Uh, does he hate himself or is this some bizarre form of ego management being played out in public?      

[inane]

24 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Well, as if there wasn't already a great divide, the latest US Democratic rhetoric and the continued insanity from the POTUS has show how wide the gulf really is between these extreme viewpoints and it is hard to find ANYONE in the middle to grasp onto for a semblance of logic.

 

In Europe, things have been this way for a while.

 

In Canada, you have a PM who is seemingly campaigning against himself.    Trudeau is constantly raging on about being against rich, privileged and, often, white men.   Uh, does he hate himself or is this some bizarre form of ego management being played out in public?      

I love how it's apparently inconceivable to you how someone would take action in what they think is the best interest of the majority even if it means it's not in their personal best interest. lol

[Rob_Zepp]

18 minutes ago, inane said:

I love how it's apparently inconceivable to you how someone would take action in what they think is the best interest of the majority even if it means it's not in their personal best interest. lol

I love how it's apparently inconceivable to you how someone can be such a hypocrite to tell others how to live whilst not modifying their own situation in the way he/she demands of others.

[inane]

51 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I love how it's apparently inconceivable to you how someone can be such a hypocrite to tell others how to live whilst not modifying their own situation in the way he/she demands of others.

imitation is flattery 

[Kragar]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Well, as if there wasn't already a great divide, the latest US Democratic rhetoric and the continued insanity from the POTUS has show how wide the gulf really is between these extreme viewpoints and it is hard to find ANYONE in the middle to grasp onto for a semblance of logic.

 

In Europe, things have been this way for a while.

 

In Canada, you have a PM who is seemingly campaigning against himself.    Trudeau is constantly raging on about being against rich, privileged and, often, white men.   Uh, does he hate himself or is this some bizarre form of ego management being played out in public?      

When there is so much demonization of the other side, how can things not get  anything but more polarized.

 

If the opponent on the "other" side is so bad, how bad does it look when you find some common ground with that person?

[Rob_Zepp]

On 1/23/2019 at 10:22 AM, Kragar said:

When there is so much demonization of the other side, how can things not get  anything but more polarized.

 

If the opponent on the "other" side is so bad, how bad does it look when you find some common ground with that person?

Agree and it seems to only be getting worse.   If even one legitimate/credible centrist individual was to appear in either Canada or the US, my guess is voters would flock to them.  Right now things are only happening in extremes on either side of spectrums.   No one is for anything - everyone is against if their "opponent' is for...even if deep down they know how ridiculous their stance is (e.g. the "more reasonable" Democratic candidates in US and their willingness to ignore illegal immigration as a problem).

[Kragar]

8 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Agree and it seems to only be getting worse.   If even one legitimate/credible centrist individual was to appear in either Canada or the US, my guess is voters would flock to them.  Right now things are only happening in extremes on either side of spectrums.   No one is for anything - everyone is against if their "opponent' is for...even if deep down they know how ridiculous their stance is (e.g. the "more reasonable" Democratic candidates in US and their willingness to ignore illegal immigration as a problem).

I hate holding my nose to vote, and 2016 was the first time I decided not to, as I voted independent - mostly after realizing that my presidential vote doesn't count.  When I move out of this beautiful but nutbag state, that might be tougher to do.

 

Growing up in Canada, one thing I always hated were the American political ads, and how negative they were compared to "ours".  I don't recall it being like that in Canada (70s, 80s, maybe even 90s), or at least not anywhere near as bad.  There is just so much deception in campaigning now (and I presume that is becoming the norm up north too), well beyond the standard "politician telling people what they want to hear".  The wording of propositions (referendums) is often done to mislead voters from the hard truth.  Sound bites taken out of context are used to further mislead us.  And the media is completely complicit in all of this.  Mainstream media has been degrading for years (decades?) and so much independent outfits trying to pick up the pieces are typically falling into the same M.O., putting the full truth aside at times to pander to their tribe.

 

It's a mess, no doubt.

[HerrDrFunk]

6 minutes ago, Kragar said:

I hate holding my nose to vote, and 2016 was the first time I decided not to, as I voted independent - mostly after realizing that my presidential vote doesn't count.  When I move out of this beautiful but nutbag state, that might be tougher to do.

 

Growing up in Canada, one thing I always hated were the American political ads, and how negative they were compared to "ours".  I don't recall it being like that in Canada (70s, 80s, maybe even 90s), or at least not anywhere near as bad.  There is just so much deception in campaigning now (and I presume that is becoming the norm up north too), well beyond the standard "politician telling people what they want to hear".  The wording of propositions (referendums) is often done to mislead voters from the hard truth.  Sound bites taken out of context are used to further mislead us.  And the media is completely complicit in all of this.  Mainstream media has been degrading for years (decades?) and so much independent outfits trying to pick up the pieces are typically falling into the same M.O., putting the full truth aside at times to pander to their tribe.

 

It's a mess, no doubt.

Truth. Proposition TV commercials here in California are are some of the slimiest $&!# I've seen in political ads. The dialysis proposition in 2018 was particularly bad when it came to that; all this grim prognostication of overcrowded hospitals and dead dialysis patients when the proposition was designed to cap how much a dialysis clinic could charge an insurance company for treatment. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by HerrDrFunk

[Kragar]

2 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Truth. Proposition TV commercials here in California are are some of the slimiest $&!# I've seen in political ads. The dialysis proposition in 2018 was particularly bad.

I don't remember that one, but there always seem to be a couple contentious ones each time where we get some disgusting campaigns, even on both sides of the issue.

 

Looked up the dialysis one... maybe it was doomed after all the outcry over the previous Prop 8?  

[HerrDrFunk]

1 hour ago, Kragar said:

I don't remember that one, but there always seem to be a couple contentious ones each time where we get some disgusting campaigns, even on both sides of the issue.

 

Looked up the dialysis one... maybe it was doomed after all the outcry over the previous Prop 8?  

Oh yeah, that last one was kind of a biggie, wasn't it? 

 

But yeah, trying to make heads or tails of any proposition from its pro or con TV ads here seems like an exercise in futility. 

[JM_]

4 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Agree and it seems to only be getting worse.   If even one legitimate/credible centrist individual was to appear in either Canada or the US, my guess is voters would flock to them.  Right now things are only happening in extremes on either side of spectrums.   No one is for anything - everyone is against if their "opponent' is for...even if deep down they know how ridiculous their stance is (e.g. the "more reasonable" Democratic candidates in US and their willingness to ignore illegal immigration as a problem).

if you look at the actual policies and laws passed in Canada under JT, I don't know how you can't view nearly all of them as centrist. 

 

I challenge you to find more than a small handful of items that could be considered "extreme left" in what Trudeau has actually done or is currently in progress: https://trudeaumetre.polimeter.org

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Jimmy McGill

[Rob_Zepp]

3 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

if you look at the actual policies and laws passed in Canada under JT, I don't know how you can't view nearly all of them as centrist. 

 

I challenge you to find more than a small handful of items that could be considered "extreme left" in what Trudeau has actually done or is currently in progress: https://trudeaumetre.polimeter.org

 

Uh, pretty much all of them.   Nationalizing energy?   Redistribution taxation?   Affirmative action where none was required?   Language police?   Immigration invitation?    

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, pretty much all of them.   Nationalizing energy?   Redistribution taxation?   Affirmative action where none was required?   Language police?   Immigration invitation?    

we haven't nationalized energy. 

 

tax reform happens all the time, its always "redistribution" of some form. The brackets weren't actually altered that much. 

 

Well you say none were required but I bet many would disagree, and its not actually affirmative action. Many countries think its sensible to have the actual population represented in government. 

 

Not sure what the language police thing is.

 

The immigration tweet was dumb, I'll grant you that  but overall immigration has been going very well for quite a long time now. 

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Jimmy McGill

[canuckistani]

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, pretty much all of them.   Nationalizing energy?   Redistribution taxation?   Affirmative action where none was required?   Language police?   Immigration invitation?    

Since when is immigrant invitation leftist policy ?? It’s the hallmark of all Canadian parties and government going back 100+ years

 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, canuckistani said:

Since when is immigrant invitation leftist policy ?? It’s the hallmark of all Canadian parties and government going back 100+ years

 

Legal immigration of course.   Agreed and how my family came to Canada.   That wasn't the talking point.

[Rob_Zepp]

Come to a conclusion.   

 

• Extreme left - they want equality of outcome irrespective of how qualified or how hard people work towards a given outcome.   What is yours is theirs and they will exhaust all avenues to make that happen.   Government (huge) exists to distribute all the wealth equally.   

 

• Extreme right - they want inequality of outcome based upon social/inherited/assigned advantage.   What is yours is theirs and they will exhaust all avenues to make that happen.   Government (small) exists to protect their rights to maintain the inequality.

 

• Centrist - equality of opportunity.   What you earn is yours.  Those who cannot property earn are aided.   Government (right sized) exists to help those who cannot help themselves.  

 

Based upon society debate (use the US as the example and CDC as a microcosm), seemingly very few in the middle.   It is getting lonely here.