alfstonker Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 9 hours ago, Viper007 said: He's not, but if he were healthy along with Kesler, the Canucks would be 2011 Cup Champs. And Sammy. Sammy was a massive part of the PP and our PP (a huge part of our game) sucked - I think we scored 3 points in 52 opportunities against the Bruins. Sammy was our 5th highest scorer that year with 50pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 14 hours ago, oldnews said: Ehrhoff did finish 8th in Norris voting - but dioes that make him 'elite'? I think he's probably was over-rated. However, I would argue that 29 yr old Dan Hamhuis was probably 'elite'. Under-rated but absolutely outstanding two way defenseman....beyond Lidstrom, Weber, Chara, Karlsson, Pietrangelo...it's a pretty thin margin if anyone else was better. Is a top 6 or top 10 NHL D 'elite'? Interestingly, the Canucks had 4 guys at that time who had top 20 Norris seasons - Edler, Hamhuis, Ehrhoff and Bieksa - so whether any of them were 'elite' may be less relevent than the effect that they together had - that quality of depth throughout your D, with Salo, Tanev, Ballard also in the mix = arguably an "elite" D group overall. As a group, I agree that they were elite. So much so that the general wisdom among fans was that there wasn't room under the cap for all of their top 5 Dmen. Bieksa was universally considered to be trade bait "as soon as the Dcorps was healthy". But injuries allowed the team to keep all of them, which was really nice since Juice scored the goal that took them to the finals. Sadly, injuries also prevented them from winning the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 15 hours ago, Hutton Wink said: TL and JB were very clear every step of the way what they were doing. Whether people understood (or chose to believe) it was another story. They had a couple primary ways to go: 1. Strip it down -- sell off assets for draft picks, and fill the roster with UFA plugs, bide time and hope drafted prospects develop 2. Accelerated transition into a new core by turning over assets (players and picks) into assets with near or current production plus upside potential, while awaiting the drafted prospects As you said, the Torts year was a bodyblow to the value of most of the team's players to where trading them would have yielded value below market. They took the second route with the moves to get Baertschi, Vey, Pedan, Granlund, Motte, Leipsic, Pouliot, etc. The first route was more like Toronto -- take on garbage filler and dead cap in return for dispatching bad contracts, and fill the roster with AHL-level plugs just so you can technically ice a "team", not caring if you actually ice a competitive product or one with any entertainment value for the paying fans. The Leafs could get away with it because after a decade plus of suckage, a huge market that auto-provides sell-outs, and with a bottomless pit of money they could put any crap out on the ice and call it an NHL team for a few more years without any real repercussions. They even told the fans they were icing a garbage product, pig-lipsticking the trash team they presented to them, and the Leaf fans lapped it up like buttermilk, worshiping at the Altar of Shanaplan. Even if they wanted to, the Canucks were not trading the Sedins and in facing a different market (one that is bandwagon-prone, fickle, and impatient, with an ever-negative media eager to egg them on) they had to use the second model, trying to ice a competitive product while turning over an old and stale roster that was well past its due. Injuries the past three years straight were key in preventing that from happening, as when the team was healthy it proved to be capable of .500+ results. Very well put. The Sedins is the key point in what has happened over the past few years. There is nothing they could do until these two left the team. The NTC's handcuffed them where they could not get rid of guys even if they wanted to. That and the big hole of no prospects had to be addressed as well. The good thing is that the Sedins are finally gone and we have prospects that will fill key positions. The big question is whether this group has the mental toughness, grit and character to weather the storm of a long grueling trip through the playoffs. I sure hope the "whine to the refs" leadership did not rub off to the new core. I believe JB is making sure this does not happen with the quality character players he is drafting and the UFA's he brought in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyman109 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 12 minutes ago, EdgarM said: Very well put. The Sedins is the key point in what has happened over the past few years. There is nothing they could do until these two left the team. The NTC's handcuffed them where they could not get rid of guys even if they wanted to. That and the big hole of no prospects had to be addressed as well. The good thing is that the Sedins are finally gone and we have prospects that will fill key positions. The big question is whether this group has the mental toughness, grit and character to weather the storm of a long grueling trip through the playoffs. I sure hope the "whine to the refs" leadership did not rub off to the new core. I believe JB is making sure this does not happen with the quality character players he is drafting and the UFA's he brought in. Good Points This is all part of the Re whatever. Changing the culture. The whining to the refs has to stop. This is a big change. Burrows, Bieksa, Kesler were terrible with the refs. That's because it was all about power plays as a deterrence to the stuff that goes on away from the puck. The Marchand incident is a perfect example. The new team needs to be able to stand up for itself and protect its players and they don't necessarily have to fight to do that,. Just make sure there is a response. A team response. With the team speed expected to increase this season there will be the opportunity for more power plays and more goals as well.If we don't whine every time a call gets missed or ignored we will see more time on the PP. Its a new day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said: Good Points This is all part of the Re whatever. Changing the culture. The whining to the refs has to stop. This is a big change. Burrows, Bieksa, Kesler were terrible with the refs. That's because it was all about power plays as a deterrence to the stuff that goes on away from the puck. The Marchand incident is a perfect example. The new team needs to be able to stand up for itself and protect its players and they don't necessarily have to fight to do that,. Just make sure there is a response. A team response. With the team speed expected to increase this season there will be the opportunity for more power plays and more goals as well.If we don't whine every time a call gets missed or ignored we will see more time on the PP. Its a new day. Yes it finally is a "New Day". The game of hockey is a rough and tough sport and yeah there doesn't need to be fighting, but definitely a need to stick up for yourself and your team mates. I have seen Granlund ,Sutter and Bo stick up for teammates. No fight occurred but they at least showed they were not letting it go. Looking forward to this season for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyman109 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 1 minute ago, EdgarM said: Yes it finally is a "New Day". The game of hockey is a rough and tough sport and yeah there doesn't need to be fighting, but definitely a need to stick up for yourself and your team mates. I have seen Granlund ,Sutter and Bo stick up for teammates. No fight occurred but they at least showed they were not letting it go. Looking forward to this season for sure. I think above all what gets missed in the retirement of the twins and no disrespect to them is the change in culture that this allows. The dressing room is no longer theirs. New team leaders will emerge. New thoughts on how to play the game. New ways to challenge and respond. Some teams we play will not be able to handle it. That works in our favor. The point you made about certain players sticking up for their team mates should become the norm not the exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I would say make a big draft splash in Vancouver ,then start working the team back up from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 1 hour ago, EdgarM said: Very well put. The Sedins is the key point in what has happened over the past few years. There is nothing they could do until these two left the team. The NTC's handcuffed them where they could not get rid of guys even if they wanted to. That and the big hole of no prospects had to be addressed as well. The good thing is that the Sedins are finally gone and we have prospects that will fill key positions. The big question is whether this group has the mental toughness, grit and character to weather the storm of a long grueling trip through the playoffs. I sure hope the "whine to the refs" leadership did not rub off to the new core. I believe JB is making sure this does not happen with the quality character players he is drafting and the UFA's he brought in. I think I get the core of what you're trying to say, but I can't agree with how you've said it or where you've assigned principal responsibility. First - were the Sedins ever really the 'whine to the refs' type? I think you're probably taking their 'turn the other cheek' nonviolence into something that goes too far in characterizing them."Whining to the refs" imo more aptly applies to a team-mate, and possibly plural, that went further - who became a notorious diver - but I'm not going to go out of my way to rip the Canucks culture - there was really nothing special or agregious about it wadr. Probably the most 'signature' incident of 'whining to the refs' came from our GMs - guys like Burke that stood up and called out NHL officials - and it's actually debatable whether he was right to do so (I consider a large part of that legitimate). The Colin Campbell scandals and evident influence peddling imo are/were far more notorious than anything any Canuck captain ever did. The counterpoint - the tough guy culture of our principal rival - had comical levels of 'ironing' - infamously represented by CDC's own MAKAVELI. The Sedins worked harder than anyone, they arguably took more punishment than anyone and they endlessly went straight back into the hard areas to take more. Those are every bit as much elements of their 'leadership' as their aversion to fighting. Absolutely as important to the emerging culture as what some folks are hoping is purged. Of course none of us want to see the young core pushed around the way the Sedins were - but that's a team accountability, not simply their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 3 hours ago, WeneedLumme said: As a group, I agree that they were elite. So much so that the general wisdom among fans was that there wasn't room under the cap for all of their top 5 Dmen. Bieksa was universally considered to be trade bait "as soon as the Dcorps was healthy". But injuries allowed the team to keep all of them, which was really nice since Juice scored the goal that took them to the finals. Sadly, injuries also prevented them from winning the cup. Yeah - the loss of Hamhuis was critical. They dominated games 1 and 2 with him in the lineup - without him the reality was the Boston took the upper hand. That Boston team was comparably deep - an unreal team from top to bottom in many ways - and in the end, the Canucks just couldn't realistically finish them without Hamhuis, and with other key top 4 hobbling (Edler and Ehrhoff were also playing with serious injuries, and then even depth pieces like Rome evaporated). When your team is built to be a modern 'puck possession' team - and you're facing somewhat of a throwback hybrid (Chara, Lucic, Thornton, McQuaid - with a rat or two thrown in the mix) - I think the scales clearly tipped when you take foundational possession pieces like Hammer out of the equation. Anyhow, their shortcomings weren't really 'cultural' - they simply did not have the depth of horses to sustain themselves through to game 7 - and additionally, they had a hell of a path to the SCF, going through Chicago, Nashville and SJ in a West that was a relative bloodbath (compared to the Habs, Philly, Tampa...) Anyhow - those are the breaks - that's sport. You usually need more than hard work, talent, etc - you need a bit of fortune as well - and Boston certainly had their share of misfortune in previous decades predating that SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete M Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 What will make our prospect pool even better than any other team will be the current roster players (young guns) taking the next step and becoming dominant players or at least meet expectations. Players like Baertichi, and JV...if these two can take another step....for instance, if JV becomes a dependable dominant power forward every shift and starts to produce with the increased ice time, and Baer stays healthy and becomes more productive, then the prospects can take more time to develop by becoming stronger, faster so that they are NHL ready, a year or two from now. There is a time for everything....if the prospects are rushed in before they prove they are NHL ready, then the process is somewhat thrown out of sequence. Only the elite players like Pettersson and Hughes will take less time to become immediate effective NHL players. However, players like Dahlen and Gaudette are almost there and if these two prove that they are NHL ready, then they should be developed in the NHL...but again, it would not hurt their development if they spend another year in the AHL to get stronger, faster and more NHL ready. Them developing in the AHL will continue to make our prospect pool the tops in the league... This is all good...what would make this situation better is back to the first point of having the NHL roster players playing to expectations...which includes Boeser and Bo having a better year than the year before....Continued improvement....imagine if Pouliot, Hutton and OJ play up to expectation this year, then our prospect pool will continue to be strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilduce39 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 The rebuild could be done but we wouldn’t know it yet. As it stands we likely need another piece or three as not everyone will pan out. JB has likely drafted the majority of a nice new core that will take a few seasons to coalesce... but I’d be shocked if the finished product doesn’t include a high profile UFA signing and/ trade to round out the roster. Likely for RDH who can play top pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 1 hour ago, ilduce39 said: The rebuild could be done but we wouldn’t know it yet. As it stands we likely need another piece or three as not everyone will pan out. JB has likely drafted the majority of a nice new core that will take a few seasons to coalesce... but I’d be shocked if the finished product doesn’t include a high profile UFA signing and/ trade to round out the roster. Likely for RDH who can play top pair. Gameplan; Tanev, Baertschi, Goldobin, 2nd 2020, G prospect? etc, Gagner, Hutton, etc, etc, whatever to Snottawa for Karlsson, extension included. Snottawa can flip Tanev to TO in a Nylander deal if they will.... And then..... Karlsson, salary retained in years one and two....To Tampa. Cal Foote, Anthony Cirelli, Howden, Coburn (cap/placeholder), 1st 19, etc, whatever. Tampa wrecks the East. The Canucks wreck the west in a few years as Tampa's window inches down.... Toronto hates us for enabling them lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaudette Celly Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 4 hours ago, EdgarM said: Yes it finally is a "New Day". The game of hockey is a rough and tough sport and yeah there doesn't need to be fighting, but definitely a need to stick up for yourself and your team mates. I have seen Granlund ,Sutter and Bo stick up for teammates. No fight occurred but they at least showed they were not letting it go. Looking forward to this season for sure. That's where they really missed Dorsett, but where the addition of Roussel in particular and Schaller will be appreciated. Other kids like Jake, Gaudette, and Leipsic don't take any crap either, nor will Lind, Gadjovich, MacEwen, Jasek, Woo, and the others that will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 21 hours ago, Viper007 said: Redo the 2011 Series with a healthy lineup on both sides, I'm sure the Canucks win. Unfortunately Fate was not in our favour . I'm not so sure about that. When we lost games against Boston, we lost big every time, no nail biters. Also, were the Canucks not healthy in the first round of playoffs that year? If I recall, they came within an OT goal of blowing that whole season after building what most would think was an insurmountable lead in the series. Was a health a question at that point? I dont believe so. No, I still believe that the 2011 Canucks were the first Presidents Trophy winning cinderella team. Unfortunately they were expected to win and the clock struck midnight on them as if they weren't. They proved that the following year as the top team going out with a whimper in round 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper007 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Riviera82 said: I'm not so sure about that. When we lost games against Boston, we lost big every time, no nail biters. Also, were the Canucks not healthy in the first round of playoffs that year? If I recall, they came within an OT goal of blowing that whole season after building what most would think was an insurmountable lead in the series. Was a health a question at that point? I dont believe so. No, I still believe that the 2011 Canucks were the first Presidents Trophy winning cinderella team. Unfortunately they were expected to win and the clock struck midnight on them as if they weren't. They proved that the following year as the top team going out with a whimper in round 1. I meant to say redo the finals as healthy teams, and the Canucks' come out on top. Kesler was too hurt to be effective, Hamhuis was arguably the most important defenseman on the team. When we lost games against Boston, we had no Hamhuis. You tell me if Boston lost Chara or Seidenberg, if they would be cup champions. My answer would be no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, Riviera82 said: I'm not so sure about that. When we lost games against Boston, we lost big every time, no nail biters. Also, were the Canucks not healthy in the first round of playoffs that year? If I recall, they came within an OT goal of blowing that whole season after building what most would think was an insurmountable lead in the series. Was a health a question at that point? I dont believe so. No, I still believe that the 2011 Canucks were the first Presidents Trophy winning cinderella team. Unfortunately they were expected to win and the clock struck midnight on them as if they weren't. They proved that the following year as the top team going out with a whimper in round 1. Yeah I don't go for that "injury" excuse either. Take some painkillers, put your tooth back in your mouth and get out there. Canadians are programmed at an early age that the Stanley Cup is the ultimate prize and no sore knee is going to stop you from getting that. I think the PP went something like 3/32 with the 2 HOF'ers on the ice, you think they would have come up with at least more PP goals if they weren't going to score 5 on 5. Yeah I seen that doubt in the previous series as well where they almost blew the lead. Shaky mental toughness was evident with that team. That team had the talent just not the heart and soul required to go above and beyond to win a Stanley Cup. Heck of a Presidents trophy team though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogersTowell Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 21 hours ago, cuporbust said: We still have no idea how these prospects will turn out. Waaaaaaay to early. I agree with you for the most part. That said, the prospect pool is so wide and deep that there's a very good chance that a good number of solid NHLers will emerge from it shortly. I think we've bottomed out and are on our way back up, although it will likely be a moderately shaky year next year while some of our top prospects make the adjustment to the speed and skill of the NHL. By the season after this, I think we'll be back in the playoffs for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdgarM Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 3 hours ago, oldnews said: I think I get the core of what you're trying to say, but I can't agree with how you've said it or where you've assigned principal responsibility. First - were the Sedins ever really the 'whine to the refs' type? I think you're probably taking their 'turn the other cheek' nonviolence into something that goes too far in characterizing them."Whining to the refs" imo more aptly applies to a team-mate, and possibly plural, that went further - who became a notorious diver - but I'm not going to go out of my way to rip the Canucks culture - there was really nothing special or agregious about it wadr. Probably the most 'signature' incident of 'whining to the refs' came from our GMs - guys like Burke that stood up and called out NHL officials - and it's actually debatable whether he was right to do so (I consider a large part of that legitimate). The Colin Campbell scandals and evident influence peddling imo are/were far more notorious than anything any Canuck captain ever did. The counterpoint - the tough guy culture of our principal rival - had comical levels of 'ironing' - infamously represented by CDC's own MAKAVELI. The Sedins worked harder than anyone, they arguably took more punishment than anyone and they endlessly went straight back into the hard areas to take more. Those are every bit as much elements of their 'leadership' as their aversion to fighting. Absolutely as important to the emerging culture as what some folks are hoping is purged. Of course none of us want to see the young core pushed around the way the Sedins were - but that's a team accountability, not simply their own. I guess I compare past regimes to the 94' team and what they could accomplish with brutal calls going their way and they persevered on. Bure was literally getting manhandled and he took matters into his own hands and the problem was solved. Maybe not the most appropriate response but effective non the less. Linden played with broken ribs and still managed to score 2 goals in game 7. Then we had the Bertuzzi/Naslund incident which progressed because Naslund provided no response to what happened to him, same with the Sedin punching bag incident and the hit on Daniel from Keith. Odjick did not care if he was going to get a penalty, he had a line and no one passed it. Remember when he tried to take on the entire opposition team? Hockey is a rough sport and you cannot play it like your playing(no hit) hockey or ringette. And if you cannot at least stick up for yourself playing this sport well maybe you need to find another sport. By no means is a Keith or a Marchand a tough guy but they sure don't take any crap. That's the difference in the players we have had over the last couple of decades and what I hope we have with our new core. Those teams played well in the regular season but we all know how well they have done in the playoffs. Time for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyman109 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 4 hours ago, oldnews said: I think I get the core of what you're trying to say, but I can't agree with how you've said it or where you've assigned principal responsibility. First - were the Sedins ever really the 'whine to the refs' type? I think you're probably taking their 'turn the other cheek' nonviolence into something that goes too far in characterizing them."Whining to the refs" imo more aptly applies to a team-mate, and possibly plural, that went further - who became a notorious diver - but I'm not going to go out of my way to rip the Canucks culture - there was really nothing special or agregious about it wadr. Probably the most 'signature' incident of 'whining to the refs' came from our GMs - guys like Burke that stood up and called out NHL officials - and it's actually debatable whether he was right to do so (I consider a large part of that legitimate). The Colin Campbell scandals and evident influence peddling imo are/were far more notorious than anything any Canuck captain ever did. The counterpoint - the tough guy culture of our principal rival - had comical levels of 'ironing' - infamously represented by CDC's own MAKAVELI. I dont think you are getting the core of it at all. The Sedins were not the whiners but everyone around them was, Burrows, Kesler especially. Way too much in fact to the point the refs turned a blind eye a lot of times to what happened to them . Say what you like Refs are human and will have bias if you give them a reason to. The blame was not assigned to Henrik and Daniel specifically but the conversation was about the change in the culture of the dressing room of which Hank and Danny have been given credit for the good part of that and deservedly so. What will be different is the culture that develops within the room and on the ice now that they have left. Most of the old core is gone and thus an opportunity to create a team that stands up for each other on and off the ice. No more Marchand incidents ever. No more Granlund getting speared in the balls without repercussions like last year. I'm not advocating the broad street bully mentality but we need to create a culture of push back. We are here to play the game but don't mess with our players or we will mess you back. Playoff hockey is more like that. As for Burke whining ... he has done a credible job of it and at times used it to take the heat away from his own players. So that they dont get frustrated and say what he has said for them. He has been good at that his whole career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyman109 Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, EdgarM said: I guess I compare past regimes to the 94' team and what they could accomplish with brutal calls going their way and they persevered on. Bure was literally getting manhandled and he took matters into his own hands and the problem was solved. Maybe not the most appropriate response but effective non the less. Linden played with broken ribs and still managed to score 2 goals in game 7. Then we had the Bertuzzi/Naslund incident which progressed because Naslund provided no response to what happened to him, same with the Sedin punching bag incident and the hit on Daniel from Keith. Odjick did not care if he was going to get a penalty, he had a line and no one passed it. Remember when he tried to take on the entire opposition team? Hockey is a rough sport and you cannot play it like your playing(no hit) hockey or ringette. And if you cannot at least stick up for yourself playing this sport well maybe you need to find another sport. By no means is a Keith or a Marchand a tough guy but they sure don't take any crap. That's the difference in the players we have had over the last couple of decades and what I hope we have with our new core. Those teams played well in the regular season but we all know how well they have done in the playoffs. Time for a change. Well put and exactly what the point is. You dont have to be Dave Shultz out there but we need more players who dont take any crap. The bolded is what it takes to win in the playoffs. Man I miss Torres and Lapierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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