Pronman Rates Prospects #2 - Rebuild Done?

[JeremyCuddles]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

What do you mean by "good NHLers"? That is an incredible subjective and vague category.

 

If you're in the NHL, you're "good".

 

If you're producing in the NHL, even if they are modest numbers as a rookie, you are doing good.

 

If you're a player like Gaudreau, who's flashy and is a dangerous threat in the offensive zone, you're good.

 

If you're a player like Hedman who isn't flashy but does all the right things in the backend, you're good.

 

If you're Crosby or Ovechkin, you're really good.

yes.

[kingofsurrey]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

I don't really think one simply says a rebuild is done.

The rebuild will naturally end... as Canucks climb the standings and draft choice drops.....

We need to be a team that builds off the draft and develops...  Only sell a  few picks when it is time to go for a CUP.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Tampa's an interesting case-study. Their drafting/acquisitions has been so impressive. Despite having the Hedman, Stammer, Kuch types, they continued to land the Brayden Point, Sergachev & Gourde sorts.

 

Yet there's a flip-side here. Along the way they've prob handed out some NT/NMC's they regret. Obtained vets like Callahan & Coburn(poor timing?) who probably mess up their cap, more than any relative benefit.

 

Illustrates how timing(& dumb luck) also play the role. I'd figured the Caps(another case) had missed their shot, then look at how things turn out.

[Father Ryan]

4 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

I still think we need another elite center and D man to go with Hughes. Jack Hughes would be great but there are other centers in another deep draft next year.

Defensively we still need a couple players there but if we cant draft one maybe we can sign one or attempt a trade when the team comes together.

Exactly where I think we are, also. It's not a given that Petersson can successfully transition to C; I really like the idea of him on wing with Horvat. Another top C, maybe one that is a playmaker first, to center Boeser.

Hughes needs a partner that can cover up some physical issues; think Willie Mitchell, for example

[spur1]

8 minutes ago, Father Ryan said:

Exactly where I think we are, also. It's not a given that Petersson can successfully transition to C; I really like the idea of him on wing with Horvat. Another top C, maybe one that is a playmaker first, to center Boeser.

Hughes needs a partner that can cover up some physical issues; think Willie Mitchell, for example

Like Jet Woo

[BlastPast]

7 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Tampa's an interesting case-study. Their drafting/acquisitions has been so impressive. Despite having the Hedman, Stammer, Kuch types, they continued to land the Brayden Point, Sergachev & Gourde sorts.

 

Yet there's a flip-side here. Along the way they've prob handed out some NT/NMC's they regret. Obtained vets like Callahan & Coburn(poor timing?) who probably mess up their cap, more than any relative benefit.

 

Illustrates how timing(& dumb luck) also play the role. I'd figured the Caps(another case) had missed their shot, then look at how things turn out.

Yes, and they somehow accomplished this despite the Koekoek pick not turning out great, the Ryan Calahan contract and the Anders Lindback trade.  It's almost as if there is room for some things to go suboptimally in a generally successful approach.

[appleboy]

As far as having high draft position ( top ten) this might be the last year for that. I hope that they never go back to using picks as trade bait. They should always consider draft picks as though they were gold. If you want this organization to always be competitive then they should continue to draft and develop. If they have a center in their system that could replace Horvat then he can be moved in the last year of his deal for more picks and so on. ( if he can't be signed)

Continue to flip older assets out and replace with players you have developed. 

Nice to see we are top two !

[Silky mitts]

4 hours ago, Rush17 said:

So we went from having the worst prospect pool to the second best in 4 and a half years.

 

Benning working some magic 

Yes accidentally rebuilding is magic . 

[DADDYROCK]

I think we should wait until Seattle is in the league ,

and all the league gimmes are handed out to them, as Las Vegas got(first year in the league go to the finals).

Then we don't have to just give away players and we should know who stays and who can take us to the cup and win the whole thing a few times.

 

THE CANUCKS AND B.C. DESERVE IT.

[NHL'er]

5 hours ago, Provost said:

At what point do we say the rebuild is done?  Did Benning speed it up just by drafting so well in later rounds that he found enough legitimate NHLers?

When we've won the cup? 

[Gaudette Celly]

24 minutes ago, Father Ryan said:

Exactly where I think we are, also. It's not a given that Petersson can successfully transition to C; I really like the idea of him on wing with Horvat. Another top C, maybe one that is a playmaker first, to center Boeser.

Hughes needs a partner that can cover up some physical issues; think Willie Mitchell, for example

Like a Woo?  Or Brisebois?  Or Sautner?  Or McEneny?  Or Brassard?

 

It's easy to get caught up in this "just one more"; it's like a drug addiction.  A team is never made up of 23 A-level elite top-of-the-draft players.  Not all prospects reach their expectations, others come out of nowhere to exceed them.  What happens if/when Gaudette and Lind both establish themselves as middle or top-6 players?  Then we still have Boeser, Dahlen, Virtanen in that mix, or others like Madden or Lockwood might surprise and reach that level?  What if our next high-end pick is an MDC?  Oh well, let's just "tank" (waste) another season in the cellar to try again?  Next thing you know, our formerly young prospects are in their prime and we have to start thinking about their replacements, and as a result you never get out of that cycle of always trying to find the next and better high.

 

At some point we have to let go of the shiny-toy addiction and start moving forward, and that will be determined by the players themselves.

[Father Ryan]

9 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Like a Woo?  Or Brisebois?  Or Sautner?  Or McEneny?  Or Brassard?

 

It's easy to get caught up in this "just one more"; it's like a drug addiction.  A team is never made up of 23 A-level elite top-of-the-draft players.  Not all prospects reach their expectations, others come out of nowhere to exceed them.  What happens if/when Gaudette and Lind both establish themselves as middle or top-6 players?  Then we still have Boeser, Dahlen, Virtanen in that mix, or others like Madden or Lockwood might surprise and reach that level?  What if our next high-end pick is an MDC?  Oh well, let's just "tank" (waste) another season in the cellar to try again?  Next thing you know, our formerly young prospects are in their prime and we have to start thinking about their replacements, and as a result you never get out of that cycle of always trying to find the next and better high.

 

At some point we have to let go of the shiny-toy addiction and start moving forward, and that will be determined by the players themselves.

As far as the Dman alongside Hughes, I was thinking more of an analogy than an acquisition. Of the players you named, Woo seems to have that kind of air. The others are more like playmakers, or in Brisebois' case, Tanev.

 

As far as the center goes, it's not so much I want to get another toy. Honestly, I would much prefer to have a good year this season, which would take us out of the lottery hope, and see if Gaudette can handle second line center somewhere in the year. Thinking back on some prior Cup winners, not all of them had a top line consisting of 3 greats. Go back to the Isles dynasty. Their top line was Bossy (Hall of Fame), Trottier (Hall of Fame) and Clark Gillies (Hall of...um). If Gillies wasn't on that line, he would have likely never had a 30 goal year, and that was back when a 3.00 GPA was an all-star goalie. We could certainly have a top line of Petersson, Horvat and Boeser; Horvat being the least talented of the trio. And that line, with chemistry, would probably scare the hell out of most other teams.

 

And in no way am I in the "tank" crowd. Play the games to win, not to hypothetically "tank" and maybe get another high pick. I'm just saying that a true top-flight center would be great to have. If we don't...we don't. Just means we had a good year...finally!

[NHL'er]

25 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

At some point we have to let go of the shiny-toy addiction and start moving forward, and that will be determined by the players themselves.

Letting go of the shiny-toy addiction would spell the end of capitalism!

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, Father Ryan said:

Exactly where I think we are, also. It's not a given that Petersson can successfully transition to C; I really like the idea of him on wing with Horvat. Another top C, maybe one that is a playmaker first, to center Boeser.

Hughes needs a partner that can cover up some physical issues; think Willie Mitchell, for example

Gudbranson would be my choice. Woo maybe 3 or 4 years down the line.

[mikeyman109]

4 hours ago, D-Money said:

I'm all for acquiring Karlsson - provided Boeser, Hughes, Pettersson, Horvat, and Demko aren't going the other way. But more than willing to talk a package involving anyone else.

 

It's not necessarily that "the time is now", but more like the legitimate chance to acquire a top-10 player in the league, who just happens to play at our weakest position organizationally, is not something that comes up anytime. The only time to pass on that is if you don't have a hope in hell of competing over the next few years - and I think we're past that (wouldn't have said that a year ago).

Again why would we want a one legged D man that wont be ready when our prospects are? Hughes will bring exactly what Karlsson would at a cheaper price and without trading any assets. What we need is a Strong defensive D man along with a quality first line center. Karlsson is not what we need.Thank goodness he isnt coming here

[Provost]

51 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Like a Woo?  Or Brisebois?  Or Sautner?  Or McEneny?  Or Brassard?

 

It's easy to get caught up in this "just one more"; it's like a drug addiction.  A team is never made up of 23 A-level elite top-of-the-draft players.  Not all prospects reach their expectations, others come out of nowhere to exceed them.  What happens if/when Gaudette and Lind both establish themselves as middle or top-6 players?  Then we still have Boeser, Dahlen, Virtanen in that mix, or others like Madden or Lockwood might surprise and reach that level?  What if our next high-end pick is an MDC?  Oh well, let's just "tank" (waste) another season in the cellar to try again?  Next thing you know, our formerly young prospects are in their prime and we have to start thinking about their replacements, and as a result you never get out of that cycle of always trying to find the next and better high.

 

At some point we have to let go of the shiny-toy addiction and start moving forward, and that will be determined by the players themselves.

Yep, this.

 

My precise point, but more eloquently put.

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, TimberWolf said:

no, the rebuild is nowhere near done

 

The players have to translate to the NHL and meet their potentials so we can define a team identity to build around in the first place. A better metric would be to look around the league and who has the best players under 22-24. We've got a long way to go

This exactly although maybe extend it 25 and under.    This is what the THN Future Watch is all about, and why they predicted WNP  wins it all in 2015 , this year (at that time maybe you'd think they were crazy).  Yes we have one of the best pools in the league and probably the best one we've ever had by a long shot.  The trick is to keep at it for a couple more years even after the some of the cream is in the lineup.   That will push us into another level completely once the playoffs are a given year after year.  

 

Take away Pettersson, OJ and Hughes and we'd be middling again...

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

This exactly although maybe extend it 25 and under.    This is what the THN Future Watch is all about, and why they predicted WNP  wins it all in 2015 , this year (at that time maybe you'd think they were crazy).  Yes we have one of the best pools in the league and probably the best one we've ever had by a long shot.  The trick is to keep at it for a couple more years even after the some of the cream is in the lineup.   That will push us into another level completely once the playoffs are a given year after year.  

 

Take away Pettersson, OJ and Hughes and we'd be middling again...

I want us to win, and I’m hoping we do, but adding another top five pick in the 2019 draft could be exactly the one player we need to make us a serious Cup contender in 2021-2030.  

[IBatch]

Just now, Alflives said:

I want us to win, and I’m hoping we do, but adding another top five pick in the 2019 draft could be exactly the one player we need to make us a serious Cup contender in 2021-2030.  

I'm feeling that too, I love all these guys that are coming up, but another blue chipper either in the top six or at defense would really help us long term.  It also lines up well with the timeline of the age of the core and with Benning eliminating the idea that skilled guys come in through the fourth line and work their way up and essentially packing Utica this year instead.  We have a bounty of third line  guys that could be used as trade bait at the deadline or just cut to let the next guy in, but star power is limited to a select few at the moment.  Maybe a guy or two works out (Dahlen, Lind, Gaudette) even better than we could have hoped for, adding to the pile would certainly help the cause.

 

WNP, WSH, TB and PIT are flush with skill up and down the line-up, especially TB.  Point is one of the best  5x5 producers in the league and their third line is filled with guys that have produced at a high level before and are still in their prime too.   Hedman AND Sergechev who's Points per 60 rival the best in the business and probably the best young goalie in the league.  It's sickening actually, WSH earned their cup that's for sure.   TB built this team around two high picks in Stamkos and Hedman, but somehow managed to get so much more along the way, which also demonstrates that solid drafting with later picks can create a powerhouse.  If Benning can manage that too than even better, but most excellent teams bottomed out for a much longer time, like we are currently doing.

[Ballisticsports.]

7 hours ago, Provost said:

The Athletic ranks our prospect pool as #2 behind just Buffalo.  That doesn’t even include Boeser as he isn’t a prospect now.

 

Basically all the rankings show us in the top 5 or higher.

 

At what point do we say the rebuild is done?  Did Benning speed it up just by drafting so well in later rounds that he found enough legitimate NHLers?

 

It would be nice to keep adding, but there is also a point where you just start paying prospects market rate of higher as they come off ELCs as new ones come in... a cycle of not getting better or leveraging of their cheap ELC years.

 

It seems like we have enough kids to filter into the lineup over the next 4-5 years, and even if we become a playoff team, we still get picks beyond the lottery ones where Benning seems to excel.

 

Is it time to start aiming at the playoffs and improving (but not in “win-now” mode where we sell off youth to contend)?

 

 

It is all great to have the best prospects

Especially,  if you already have a good team

 

Your statement of Boeser rang a bell

Teams have a lot of former "prospects" playing in the NHL  already, while the Canucks from those drafts are still just prospects

So I think you have to temper that rating somewhat

 

So taking that our team has not been good in years (We really need these guys to become proven)

Other teams have prospects that are in the NHL already and no longer considered prospects (like Brock) while still having prospects as well

Wondering why some are surprised our prospects rakings are high?

 

Like many have mentioned in here

It is up to them to take the next step and be proven and make the Canucks a good team