Pronman Rates Prospects #2 - Rebuild Done?

[Phat Fingers]

7 hours ago, Rush17 said:

So we went from having the worst prospect pool to the second best in 4 and a half years.

 

Benning working some magic 

I have noticed the GMJB sucks crowd is a lot quieter lately. 

[48MPHSlapShot]

I think we're pretty close. Obviously we still need to see what we have, but if Pettersson, Demko and Hughes can come as advertised, and guys like Dahlen, Gaudette, Lind, Juolevi can prove to be solid NHLers, with a few other guys panning out as well, then the worst of it is pretty damn close to being over. I think we need one more high pick (which we'll likely be landing next year) and then after that, we're off to the races. By 2019-2020 I think the team starts getting noticeably better again, and at that point I don't think the idea of moving picks around to fill out the lineup or god forbid land a star player via trade should be off the table any more.

[Phat Fingers]

2 hours ago, DADDYROCK said:

I think we should wait until Seattle is in the league ,

and all the league gimmes are handed out to them, as Las Vegas got(first year in the league go to the finals).

Then we don't have to just give away players and we should know who stays and who can take us to the cup and win the whole thing a few times.

 

THE CANUCKS AND B.C. DESERVE IT.

Shouldn’t Vancouver be able to have extra Input into a Seattle expansion ala Buffalo and Toronto being able to block Hamilton from getting an nhl franchise?  

[Ballisticsports.]

1 minute ago, Phat Fingers said:

Shouldn’t Vancouver be able to have extra Input into a Seattle expansion ala Buffalo and Toronto being able to block Hamilton from getting an nhl franchise?  

I doubt Vancouver would lose any merchandise money from losing Seattle fans

It would help Canucks gain interest and in their best interest to want an expansion (plus the team getting money from expansion fee)

[SingleThorn]

5 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Shouldn’t Vancouver be able to have extra Input into a Seattle expansion ala Buffalo and Toronto being able to block Hamilton from getting an nhl franchise?  

I think that 100km ( miles ? ) is the max for veto rights. ( based on a very vague memory ! )

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, Hutton Wink said:

Like a Woo?  Or Brisebois?  Or Sautner?  Or McEneny?  Or Brassard?

 

It's easy to get caught up in this "just one more"; it's like a drug addiction.  A team is never made up of 23 A-level elite top-of-the-draft players.  Not all prospects reach their expectations, others come out of nowhere to exceed them.  What happens if/when Gaudette and Lind both establish themselves as middle or top-6 players?  Then we still have Boeser, Dahlen, Virtanen in that mix, or others like Madden or Lockwood might surprise and reach that level?  What if our next high-end pick is an MDC?  Oh well, let's just "tank" (waste) another season in the cellar to try again?  Next thing you know, our formerly young prospects are in their prime and we have to start thinking about their replacements, and as a result you never get out of that cycle of always trying to find the next and better high.

 

At some point we have to let go of the shiny-toy addiction and start moving forward, and that will be determined by the players themselves.

I keep hearing this too. Just one more year of trying to tank to get that elusive "elite" player who is going to put us over the top. That's fine and dandy if you are looking to get presidents trophy after presidents trophy and never winning a cup. 

Some one else said that changing the "culture" was just as important and I don't care where in a draft a player comes from just as long as he has the "killer instinct" attitude come playoff time. 

You get a bunch of these players and all of a sudden they're whining about getting paid 10+ million dollars or I walk. Well "beat it" then because we don't want your attitude or your pouty , whiny a*& anyway on our team. 

Just like Hutton W said your team does not consist of 23 "elite" players and those aren't usually the ones that win you a cup anyway. I am betting Bo is going to be leading the way when we really need him and we didn't "tank" to get him either.

[Quantum]

I have the Athletic and have been following Corey Pronman's prospect lists for each team for the last month and a few things about his take on the Canucks were these:

 

1) Pronman is very vocal about how he doesn't usually rate goaltenders. He's not comfortable with giving them high scouting ratings because he's not as familiar with the intricacies of scouting goaltenders. The only goaltender he's ever given an Elite NHL Prospect rating too is Andrei Vasilvesky.  That said, he rated both Thatcher Demko and Michael DiPetrio as Legit NHL Prospects which is a huge endorsement coming from Pronman. There are no other teams in his rankings with two goalies rated in the Legit NHL Prospects category with most teams not having one ranked (other legit NHL prospect goalies, according to Pronman, include Carter Hart (Phi) and Ilya Sorokin (NYI).)

 

2) Jalen Chatfield is not listed. I commented on Pronman's post about this and he said he's not convinced Jalen Chatfield is an NHL calibre prospect. He also said in the same response that he talked to at least one scout who insisted that Jalen Chatfield will be an NHL player. I, for one, believe Chatfield is going to be an NHL defenseman for us. If he breaks in it'll be as a Chris Tanev comparable, in my opinion. Ashton Sautner, Michael Carcone, and Matt Brassard were also not listed. Wiffed on not including them in his write up. Evan McEneny made

 

3) Quinn Hughes was rated higher than Elias Pettersson by Pronman. Pronman also seems to have come around to Petterson. Last year Pronman questioned the Pettersson pick, this year he has upgraded Pettersson to an Elite Prospect (which is hard to argue against). Pronman still feels like Casey Middelstat is the better prospect between Pettersson/Middlestat. And at this point it is a true toss up, in my opinion.

 

4) Pronman is definitely intrigued with the Artyom Manukyan pick. Credits him with having "high end puck skills" that can be translated to the NHL. Knock on Artyom is his size and the fact that he's not an "explosive skater". Can make plays at pace. One too watch. That said, when it comes to the Canucks other small forward draft pick, Petrus Palmu, not sold on him as much. Doubts that Palmu is dynamic enough to make up for his size at the NHL level... this comes despite Palmu winning rookie of the year in the Finnish league. Disagree with Pronman on Palmu and really believe a Palmu & Gadjovich tandem could anchor the Canucks third line in a few years. I'm very excited about them playing together in Utica this year. Manukyan is still a mystery to me but I think he could be a real steal in a year or two depending on how his stint in the KHL goes.

 

5) Pronman doesn't believe we have any "High End Prospects" our prospects go from Elite (Hughes, Pettersson) to Legit (Gaudette, Demko, Lind, DiPetrio, Juolevi, Dahlen) to Have a Chance and so on. That said, we have a lot of "legit" and "have a chance" prospects and when compared to other teams, it's not really close. The only reason the Canucks don't have the #1 prospect pool is because Buffalo has Dahlin/Middlestat but with those players making the jump to the NHL this season, Buffalo's ranking will likely tumble. Also, from the "have a chance" part of the Canucks list, Pronman has Will Lockwood highly ranked. Pronman calls Lockwood a legit offensive threat who is an entertaining two way forward who works and kills penalties. Big knock on Lockwood is his health and consistency. Pronman still thinks Lockwood has a very good chance at being an NHLer if he can stay healthy. If both Juolevi and Lockwood can crack and stay on the Canucks roster, that'll salvage the otherwise abysmal 2016 draft we had. Lockwood is listed as the #9 prospect by Pronman. He's also high on Zack MacEwen and Lukas Jasek... great signs that the Canucks found a couple of gems from the bargain bin.

 

I really enjoyed his write up and it should be noted that for all the flack Benning (rightfully so) gets, he and Judd Brackett are drafting wizards and should get praise for how they've completely overhauled Vancouver's prospect cupboard from consistently being one of the worst in the league to arguably the best in the league. Future's bright!

[Provost]

2 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

It is all great to have the best prospects

Especially,  if you already have a good team

 

Your statement of Boeser rang a bell

Teams have a lot of former "prospects" playing in the NHL  already, while the Canucks from those drafts are still just prospects

So I think you have to temper that rating somewhat

 

So taking that our team has not been good in years (We really need these guys to become proven)

Other teams have prospects that are in the NHL already and no longer considered prospects (like Brock) while still having prospects as well

Wondering why some are surprised our prospects rakings are high?

 

Like many have mentioned in here

It is up to them to take the next step and be proven and make the Canucks a good team

That is an entirely valid point.

 

We have a lot of guys destroying their respective leagues, but their counterparts on other teams are already in the NHL.

[kingofsurrey]

NHL Prospects are like collecting girls phone numbers at the Bar.......

 

They don't all work out........

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

This exactly although maybe extend it 25 and under.    This is what the THN Future Watch is all about, and why they predicted WNP  wins it all in 2015 , this year (at that time maybe you'd think they were crazy).  Yes we have one of the best pools in the league and probably the best one we've ever had by a long shot.  The trick is to keep at it for a couple more years even after the some of the cream is in the lineup.   That will push us into another level completely once the playoffs are a given year after year.  

 

Take away Pettersson, OJ and Hughes and we'd be middling again...

I think this is an important point, which should make people think again, as to whether the rebuild is completed or not...….if just one of those do not turn out to be high end "NHL" players, well then we will need more. So, IMO rebuilds should never be over, and searching, and scouting all appropriate leagues should be paramount for a good scouting staff, yearly!

 

IMO, a good team should be moving guys in and guys out on a continuous basis, to always have players in the minors, that are developing and hungry. Players that are on the big club always need to remember there is someone coming to take their job "one day".

 

And! Management should continually be evaluating their players ceilings, where they are along that ceiling curve, and when it would be a good time to trade that player, in regards to asset management, or if in fact a player should be moved at all.

 

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I'm feeling that too, I love all these guys that are coming up, but another blue chipper either in the top six or at defense would really help us long term.  It also lines up well with the timeline of the age of the core and with Benning eliminating the idea that skilled guys come in through the fourth line and work their way up and essentially packing Utica this year instead.  We have a bounty of third line  guys that could be used as trade bait at the deadline or just cut to let the next guy in, but star power is limited to a select few at the moment.  Maybe a guy or two works out (Dahlen, Lind, Gaudette) even better than we could have hoped for, adding to the pile would certainly help the cause.

 

WNP, WSH, TB and PIT are flush with skill up and down the line-up, especially TB.  Point is one of the best  5x5 producers in the league and their third line is filled with guys that have produced at a high level before and are still in their prime too.   Hedman AND Sergechev who's Points per 60 rival the best in the business and probably the best young goalie in the league.  It's sickening actually, WSH earned their cup that's for sure.   TB built this team around two high picks in Stamkos and Hedman, but somehow managed to get so much more along the way, which also demonstrates that solid drafting with later picks can create a powerhouse.  If Benning can manage that too than even better, but most excellent teams bottomed out for a much longer time, like we are currently doing.

I agree with your entire post. Teams that have good drafting do end up on top, as you have illustrated. It should also be pointed out that most high end teams have been fortunate enough to "cluster" a lot of their talent, meaning they had multiple prospects from 3 or 4 years in a row, all develop into 1st and 2nd line players, there by having them all mature in a tighter group, and going through their 24 to 30 years together.

 

But again, they also are not shy to move a player, once in decline or there is a replacement close enough in their development to start pushing the older player...…...or there UFA years are coming up and there is a opportunity to move them (Depending on their demands, and who is behind them.) 

 

It is a cycle......wash, rinse, repeat...……….("generally, move them out by their 10th to 12th year after their draft")……….this important.....It is not always case! But as this league gets younger, it should be a general rule.

[Provost]

1 hour ago, Phat Fingers said:

I have noticed the GMJB sucks crowd is a lot quieter lately. 

I don’t know a lot of people that didn’t at least give him credit for being an excellent scout and drafter.

 

That part has certainly planned out better than even optimistic folks projected.  Getting a single legitimate NHLer per draft that makes a significant contribution to your team is expected.  It looos like we are in line to get 2-3 guys from each of the last few drafts who look like they will be regular roster players down the road.

 

I think we have yet to see how he does making a team better and winning playoff rounds.  Still a big question.

 

I also want to see him make and win a big trade where he actually moved out a significant roster player to make us better.  That hasn’t happened yet as it has been tinkering on the edges.  Kesler is his only significant trade and that was publicly forced and not his choice.

[IBatch]

39 minutes ago, Provost said:

That is an entirely valid point.

 

We habeba lot of guys destroying their respective leagues, but their counterparts on other teams are always in the NHL.

2016 wasn't a good year for us but that could still change if OJ ends up a solid two way defenseman.  2015,2017 and 2018 look great though.  Can't miss with Pettersson and Hughes, and a good chance for several others.    I do get what your saying,  a lot of other teams have dressed guys from the 2016 draft already and some have made an impact too, it makes our team a little heavier in the pool than those teams and once OJ and maybe Lockwood make it there will be some evening out.

[N7Nucks]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

This exactly although maybe extend it 25 and under.    This is what the THN Future Watch is all about, and why they predicted WNP  wins it all in 2015 , this year (at that time maybe you'd think they were crazy).  Yes we have one of the best pools in the league and probably the best one we've ever had by a long shot.  The trick is to keep at it for a couple more years even after the some of the cream is in the lineup.   That will push us into another level completely once the playoffs are a given year after year.  

 

Take away Pettersson, OJ and Hughes and we'd be middling again...

To be fair take away any team's top 3 prospects and their prospect pool will be middling at best. Lol.

[NHL97OneTimer]

The rebuild is done when people don't care if players like Gaunce or Goldobin are lost to waivers.   The rebuild is also done when they're not playing Loui 6million per year.

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

I have noticed the GMJB sucks crowd is a lot quieter lately. 

Go and read the utter filth on that other Canuck’s board () and you will still find a lot of nasty JB haters.  

[Provost]

1 hour ago, NHL97OneTimer said:

The rebuild is done when people don't care if players like Gaunce or Goldobin are lost to waivers.   The rebuild is also done when they're not playing Loui 6million per year.

That will never happen.

 

Peolle are still sore about losing guys like Corrado... they will complain if Gaunce is lost on waivers even if his roster replacement scores 20 goals.

[King Heffy]

4 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

I have noticed the GMJB sucks crowd is a lot quieter lately. 

I really hated his trades at the time, but they make a ton more sense now that his vision is becoming clearer.  Add in the outstanding drafting and I'm happy to eat a heaping helping of crow.  Love the direction this team is headed in, but we still need more high-end talent.

[Rush17]

1 hour ago, Provost said:

That will never happen.

 

Peolle are still sore about losing guys like Corrado... they will complain if Gaunce is lost on waivers even if his roster replacement scores 20 goals.

Lol. Do you guys remember when Brendan Gaunce was our projected future first line center lol.

 

Man times were bleak back then. 

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, King Heffy said:

I really hated his trades at the time, but they make a ton more sense now that his vision is becoming clearer.  Add in the outstanding drafting and I'm happy to eat a heaping helping of crow.  Love the direction this team is headed in, but we still need more high-end talent.

Benning was pretty open about the plan from day 1 and has stuck to it. I couldn't understand all the negativity about those early trades. With a complete lack of decent prospects the trades made complete sense to me.

 

But it's premature to call the rebuild complete though. As good as these prospects appear there will be those that don't make it or become fringe type players. There isn't a GM in the history of the game that has made the number of hits people believe our prospects to be. Without a doubt some won't make the grade. It's fine to be excited about the group but no GM hits on every pick.

[canucklehead44]

10 hours ago, Phat Fingers said:

Shouldn’t Vancouver be able to have extra Input into a Seattle expansion ala Buffalo and Toronto being able to block Hamilton from getting an nhl franchise?  

So different. Buffalo is 2/3 the distance to Toronto as Vancouver is to Seattle and Hamilton is pretty much in the middle (an hour from both). Not really an equivalent due to geography but imagine if a team as already in Seattle and then a team in Bellingham or Abbotsford as added.