[Discussion] Buffalo - Vancouver

[J.I.A.H.N]

I have been looking at Buffalo's and Vancouver's rosters/age/strength/points/etc., and have noticed a lot of parallel's. I think it is important in that as much as we are very excited with our current position, and play of the team, Buffalo has an equal right to be excited.

 

I look at Pettersson being our Eichel

Our Boeser being their Reinhart

Our Horvat being their Middelstadt

Our Hughes being their Dahlin

Our Juolevi being their  Ristolainen

Our Demko being their Ullmark

Our Eriksson being their Moulson

Our Markstrom being their Hutton

Our Baertschi to their Skinner

Our Sutter to their Oksopo

Our Virtanen to their Sheary

 

Now, although not exact comparisons, we are very similar in make up, and it is arguable, as to who has the better core. I am of the opinion we have better prospects, but, and there is always a but, as our prospects mature, Buffalo will gain in that department, things being equal, by the fact of them having 3-1st's this coming year, if they choose. These 1st's were accumulated by trading 2 very good players, in Kane and O'Reilly, very gutsy calls in the middle of a rebuild.

 

This brings us to my point, of where we are now, and what we have of value, that we can move, to attempt to echo, this type of rebuild. (I would point out that moving Kane and O'Rielly in the midst of their rebuild, was calculated, and was designed, not only to acquire draft picks, but also to slow down their ascent. Giving them 4-1st round picks in the next 2 years, which should arguably move them up in the prospect ranking considerably over the next 2 years. I believe all this was calculated to give them a deeper prospect pool long term.

 

This brings me up to my second, and most important point, which is that of moving some of our veterans out at the TDL. Long term, this is an important cog, and one that can be supported by the fact that we can remain competitive and entertained, while doing this, as proven by having so many "so called" indispensable players out currently with injury.

 

Consider who is out at the moment, and how we are doing. Consider that in fact, our younger team has remain competitive during this time, and that veteran players, can be replaced through Unrestricted free Agency, at the end of the year, if they can't permanently be replace internally.

 

Now, looking at expendable players is a arbitrary and subjective issue, and there are as many counter points to every argument, but question remains, in regards to our 3 most valuable injured players at this time, that they are replaceable in UFA, and they are not here now, and we are doing fine. Also note that, all 3 players (Edler, Tanev, and Sutter) still have good market value if traded at the TDL.

 

Now, I am not suggesting trading all 3, but it should be noted that none will be here in 3 or 4 years, when our current prospect all begin to gel.  As a matter of fact, Sutter and Tanev may choose not to sign in Vancouver and may choose at that time to sign closer to their family homes. (We will not know until contract time.)(also consider that if there is an strike or lock out, a whole season maybe wasted, and we will watch another group rot on the vine)

 

I would submit that long term, our gathering of prospects are more important, than player loyalty of older players, or climbing the point tiers, within the league. Our target should be 3/4 years from now, and that if can play with the same competitiveness as we are now, without them, that we should strongly consider moving them. I believe that there should be a continual rotation of players, with only the very memorable being kept.

 

I would also argue that if an expansion happen in 2 years, that it is very possible, that one of these players would not be protected, to keep others protected.

 

I would like to hear opinion for and against, convince me. Show me that this is a good idea, or a bad idea. 

 

Thanks

[J.I.A.H.N]

NO Comments?

 

CDC has hurt my feeling...lol

[SabreFan1]

1 hour ago, janisahockeynut said:

NO Comments?

 

CDC has hurt my feeling...lol

Only myself and one or two other people here know enough about both the Sabres and the Canucks to analyze and comment on your post.  There were several things that my first reaction was to pick apart your post, but that's not what you're looking for so I didn't.

 

Also, at the end of the year, both teams will likely be in the bottom 10 so each team's futures are squarely in the prospect's hands.  The vets are just there to keep the teams competitive in the meantime.

 

I am pretty stoked though about the 3 1st round picks that the Sabres have in this draft.  It's supposed to be a pretty decent upper class.  It will help keep the cupboards full for sure.

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Only myself and one or two other people here know enough about both the Sabres and the Canucks to analyze and comment on your post.  There were several things that my first reaction was to pick apart your post, but that's not what you're looking for so I didn't.

 

Also, at the end of the year, both teams will likely be in the bottom 10 so each team's futures are squarely in the prospect's hands.  The vets are just there to keep the teams competitive in the meantime.

 

I am pretty stoked though about the 3 1st round picks that the Sabres have in this draft.  It's supposed to be a pretty decent upper class.  It will help keep the cupboards full for sure.

You sell you team short.  I watch them play on the Internet, and they look really quite good.  I think your team will be in the playoffs, or very close.  And PLEASE beat the Leafs every time you play those LOSERS.  

[JM_]

13 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Only myself and one or two other people here know enough about both the Sabres and the Canucks to analyze and comment on your post.  There were several things that my first reaction was to pick apart your post, but that's not what you're looking for so I didn't.

 

Also, at the end of the year, both teams will likely be in the bottom 10 so each team's futures are squarely in the prospect's hands.  The vets are just there to keep the teams competitive in the meantime.

 

I am pretty stoked though about the 3 1st round picks that the Sabres have in this draft.  It's supposed to be a pretty decent upper class.  It will help keep the cupboards full for sure.

don't count your chickens just yet, there's 2 conditional picks in the first round for your guys  but yeah most likely it'll be 3. If Benning can't find any more picks it will be tough to watch that 

 

I could see Buffalo sneaking into that last wildcard spot if they stay healthy, Montreal isn't for real and will tank soon enough. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, SabreFan1 said:

Only myself and one or two other people here know enough about both the Sabres and the Canucks to analyze and comment on your post.  There were several things that my first reaction was to pick apart your post, but that's not what you're looking for so I didn't.

 

Also, at the end of the year, both teams will likely be in the bottom 10 so each team's futures are squarely in the prospect's hands.  The vets are just there to keep the teams competitive in the meantime.

 

I am pretty stoked though about the 3 1st round picks that the Sabres have in this draft.  It's supposed to be a pretty decent upper class.  It will help keep the cupboards full for sure.

Thanks Sabre

My intent wasn't to be a direct comparison, and I thank you for not taking me to task

My point is how similar in age, and positional construction we are

and how, IMO, Buffalo made the tough decision to move out veterans...

There is no doubt that our Veterans are here for support, but we are a team in transition, much like Buffalo

and that support is being done by younger veterans at this moment, as our older veterans are pretty much all injured

which is part of why I think they are expendable, the other reason being that they can be acquired by UFA if needed

But IMO, the true value of the veterans mentioned, are our best most tradable players

I drool over what is coming Buffalo's way, via those firsts, and will watch with interest, to see who they pick

I really just thought it was an interesting comparison, worth discussing

Obviously most did not agree....I am ok with that....

Thanks

 

[Phil_314]

I wish we had a Ristolainen on our roster... 6'4" right handed D-man who can play an all-round game for 25 mins a night including physicality and good offensive ability.

Can't exactly project Olli to get to those levels when he's already 20 and more than 30 lbs lighter than Rasmus... sure I could see him being a solid all-rounder but probably not as much of an all-round beast and physical presence as Rasmus (sure hope I'm wrong)...

 

On the flip side, Mittlestadt is NOT Horvat either... given how his season's started the analytics community has begun to wonder why he was so highly ranked alongside Pettersson (CanucksArmy had a piece about that).  Bo is pretty good, and while Casey can probably eventually get to those heights, he's not a sure thing IMO given what I've read. 

[SabreFan1]

59 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You sell you team short.  I watch them play on the Internet, and they look really quite good.  I think your team will be in the playoffs, or very close.  And PLEASE beat the Leafs every time you play those LOSERS.  

Thanks to the depth players that Botterill picked up when he traded ROR, they are on their way to changing the losing culture in that locker-room.  I think the most they can hope for this season is about 75-85 points.  If they hit a long pointless skid anywhere in the season though, I wouldn't be surprised however if they ended up in the bottom 10.

[SabreFan1]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

don't count your chickens just yet, there's 2 conditional picks in the first round for your guys  but yeah most likely it'll be 3. If Benning can't find any more picks it will be tough to watch that 

 

I could see Buffalo sneaking into that last wildcard spot if they stay healthy, Montreal isn't for real and will tank soon enough. 

Short of the Sharks having a complete collapse this season, 1 of the conditions has already been met (Kane/SJS), and with the Blues finally starting to look decent after a slow start, it's all but inevitable that they'll get that pick as well.  I can't see St. Louis ending up in the bottom 10.

 

As for the Sabres sneaking in the wild card, I'd love to see it happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[SabreFan1]

59 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

On the flip side, Mittlestadt is NOT Horvat either... given how his season's started the analytics community has begun to wonder why he was so highly ranked alongside Pettersson (CanucksArmy had a piece about that).  Bo is pretty good, and while Casey can probably eventually get to those heights, he's not a sure thing IMO given what I've read. 

Mittelstadt is only a year and a half removed from high school hockey.  With all of the writers I saw picking him as a Calder winner, I knew that they would be in for a rude awakening.  Unlike EP, he hasn't had lots of experience playing against grown men.  Half a season in the USHL and a full season at University is not the best primer for the NHL.

 

I was hoping I was going to be wrong and Mittelstadt would be as good as or better than EP, but he's turning out to be another rookie with loads of potential who needs at least a full season of professional hockey to reach that potential.  That said, I do think he's likely to be a star in the NHL, but this will not be his breakout season.

 

Analytics are useless though with such a small sample size to base the numbers off of so Canucks Army needs to be careful about applying them or it could come back to bite them on the butt.  If I'm wrong and Mittelstadt becomes a beast on the ice soon, I'm just some random dude on a message board.  If they're wrong, they lose credibility for publishing opinions on a statistically small sample size for the world to see.

 

The same can be said for Dahlin's sample size.  No one credible in the media is loudly sounding the warning bells yet even though his play has been average middle pairing level so far because that will likely change as the season progresses and he acclimates to the NHL and nobody wants to get burned. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

Sliding right back to the original post, and the Colorado game

It was exciting, quick, skilled, fast paced

 

That is the new NHL. What is also the new NHL is the speed and skill of the big men, and when it comes right down to it, we just do not know as fans, whether the NHL will alter their playoff officiating to protect the smaller players, so quite frankly, we have to bolster our team, with some of those new fast, quick, big men, or we will never make it through a 7 game series, let alone 16 playoff wins.

 

So, now it is obvious we have some serious skill, in Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, and Q.Hughes, and some team speed in Virtanen, Rousell and Motte. We now need to focus on positioning ourselves for some of those bigger players. Basically a better Gadjovich, that comes in the 1st round, without the obvious deficiencies (skating)

 

I again submit, that with the current crew showing how they can play, without the Edler's, Sutter's and Tanev's, it is now that we should make those moves, and sit back and watch the development of another great Canuck team. 

 

Now it was nice to win last night, but wasn't it really the fact of the speed, hustle, commitment and potential of our young guys that brought you out of your seats? Did you not once think of how Q. Hughes may have impacted this game with this crew? And he wasn't even there.

 

We always complain that we move veterans too late in the process or not at all, and have watched as some have just gone to sign with other clubs, with us receiving no asset back. 

 

I again suggest, that Benning gut it out and trade Tanev, Edler, and Sutter at the trade deadline...…..

 

Envision what our roster would look like with 5 firsts, and 2 seconds over the next 2 years, coming in to this team. Envision what the other residual 3, 4, 5's may bring to the club, and how our future would look so solid for so long....not the next 2 years, but the next 10 to 15 years, which is what I want to see, which is a machine that has enough talent to maintain over a very long period of time and to rotate assets, to take advantage of teams that do not have that talent base.

 

That is what I want.

[hammertime]

I don't know how to comment you didnt really propose anything. you mostly just stated your thought process. I think most fans of the canucks can agree Tanev Edler Sutter are likely on the block. and most of us will agree that if the ends justify the means they should be traded but not given up for scraps as they are competitive players who are a large part of the Canucks group and respected members of the team. Who/what do you target in Buffalo if you think they would be interested and why? I'm not so sure they are TDL buyers yet.

[Rob_Zepp]

22 hours ago, SabreFan1 said:

Mittelstadt is only a year and a half removed from high school hockey.  With all of the writers I saw picking him as a Calder winner, I knew that they would be in for a rude awakening.  Unlike EP, he hasn't had lots of experience playing against grown men.  Half a season in the USHL and a full season at University is not the best primer for the NHL.

 

I was hoping I was going to be wrong and Mittelstadt would be as good as or better than EP, but he's turning out to be another rookie with loads of potential who needs at least a full season of professional hockey to reach that potential.  That said, I do think he's likely to be a star in the NHL, but this will not be his breakout season.

 

Analytics are useless though with such a small sample size to base the numbers off of so Canucks Army needs to be careful about applying them or it could come back to bite them on the butt.  If I'm wrong and Mittelstadt becomes a beast on the ice soon, I'm just some random dude on a message board.  If they're wrong, they lose credibility for publishing opinions on a statistically small sample size for the world to see.

 

The same can be said for Dahlin's sample size.  No one credible in the media is loudly sounding the warning bells yet even though his play has been average middle pairing level so far because that will likely change as the season progresses and he acclimates to the NHL and nobody wants to get burned. 

They dominated the Senators 9-2 yesterday but Dahlin played only 8 and a bit minutes and did not look very good at times.   I think he is thinking too hard and trying to do too much.   He might really benefit from some time on the farm ala what the Canucks are doing with OJ.

[J-P]

10 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

They dominated the Senators 9-2 yesterday but Dahlin played only 8 and a bit minutes and did not look very good at times.   I think he is thinking too hard and trying to do too much.   He might really benefit from some time on the farm ala what the Canucks are doing with OJ.

Dahlin was injured yesterday when blocking a shot, hence the low ice time. He's averaged just under 19 minutes for the season and is on pace for 25 points.

 

Haven't seen him play in Buffalo so can't comment on the eye test, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a little too ambitious with the puck. Would be surprised though to see him on the farm, given his talent level I think it's more likely he'll adjust, but if his ice time should start to decrease I agree it would probably be what's best for him.

[cripplereh]

I really think that Vancouver with two young golaies that should be in the lineup in two years, plus 3 young D men should be better in 3 years.

 

buffalo will be good but I think van will be alot better

[SabreFan1]

25 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said:

They dominated the Senators 9-2 yesterday but Dahlin played only 8 and a bit minutes and did not look very good at times.   I think he is thinking too hard and trying to do too much.   He might really benefit from some time on the farm ala what the Canucks are doing with OJ.

Dahlin got injured during the game after blocking a shot with his foot.  They took him out after it was obvious that they were going to win.  Otherwise his play has been average for a middle pairing D-man.  The Sabres can't afford to drop any D-men to the minors who can play at a decent level. 

 

Dahlin has been playing against grown men since he was 15 and since he's shown that he can keep up in this league, he may as well continue to learn the game in the NHL.  There isn't anything that the AHL can teach him better than the SHL in Sweden already did.

[SabreFan1]

10 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

I really think that Vancouver with two young golaies that should be in the lineup in two years, plus 3 young D men should be better in 3 years.

 

buffalo will be good but I think van will be alot better

Time will tell.  It's too soon yet to know for sure or even have a good idea where either team will be.  Too many things, good and bad, can happen in a few years' time.

[cripplereh]

On 11/3/2018 at 6:55 PM, SabreFan1 said:

Dahlin got injured during the game after blocking a shot with his foot.  They took him out after it was obvious that they were going to win.  Otherwise his play has been average for a middle pairing D-man.  The Sabres can't afford to drop any D-men to the minors who can play at a decent level. 

 

Dahlin has been playing against grown men since he was 15 and since he's shown that he can keep up in this league, he may as well continue to learn the game in the NHL.  There isn't anything that the AHL can teach him better than the SHL in Sweden already did.

I dunno but Pettersson is miles ahead for rookie of the year!

[SabreFan1]

22 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

I dunno but Pettersson is miles ahead for rookie of the year!

Yeah he is!  I really really hope he keeps it up.  I don't see why he wouldn't.  Everything he's done is skill based.  No puck luck needed.