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1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

they always seem to fall back on this dopey Social Conservatism

If you look, the last few federal CPC conventions were stacked like STACKED with social conservative groups who essentially have been dictating party policy and who will be new candidates in the party.

 

1/3 of the entire convention were sent from registered social conservative type entities in order to outright steer the party where they wanted.  They even went so far as to tell O'Toole vote our way and for our mandate or we're staying home next election.

 

That is sadly a huge, like very huge base of people in rural quebec, alberta, sask and ontario.....

 

It's actually shameful really.

 

https://www.catholicregister.org/item/32816-social-conservatives-plan-to-make-their-voices-heard-at-conservative-party-convention

 

https://www.cpac.ca/en/conservative-convention-abortion-social-conservatives-and-the-party-constitution/

 

https://www.antihate.ca/anti_lgbtq_anti_abortion_lobby_group_setting_conservative_party_policy

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8 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

If you look, the last few federal CPC conventions were stacked like STACKED with social conservative groups who essentially have been dictating party policy and who will be new candidates in the party.

 

1/3 of the entire convention were sent from registered social conservative type entities in order to outright steer the party where they wanted.  They even went so far as to tell O'Toole vote our way and for our mandate or we're staying home next election.

 

That is sadly a huge, like very huge base of people in rural quebec, alberta, sask and ontario.....

 

It's actually shameful really.

 

https://www.catholicregister.org/item/32816-social-conservatives-plan-to-make-their-voices-heard-at-conservative-party-convention

 

https://www.cpac.ca/en/conservative-convention-abortion-social-conservatives-and-the-party-constitution/

 

https://www.antihate.ca/anti_lgbtq_anti_abortion_lobby_group_setting_conservative_party_policy

Good news for the Libs, I suppose. You have to wonder is Jag will be able to capitalize on the Cons' fumbling and boost the NDP's prospects.

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1 hour ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Good news for the Libs, I suppose. You have to wonder is Jag will be able to capitalize on the Cons' fumbling and boost the NDP's prospects.

If NDP leadership were smart, they'd be taking a page out of the Liberals' playbook and moving themselves towards the centre, forcing the Liberals to the right.

 

The only problem with that is the radical left would likely feel disenfranchised and splinter off from the NDP.

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5 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

If NDP leadership were smart, they'd be taking a page out of the Liberals' playbook and moving themselves towards the centre, forcing the Liberals to the right.

 

The only problem with that is the radical left would likely feel disenfranchised and splinter off from the NDP.

Maybe then the Greens could become a viable party....I'd be okay with it...

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3 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

If NDP leadership were smart,

let me stop you there 

 

3 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

 

they'd be taking a page out of the Liberals' playbook and moving themselves towards the centre, forcing the Liberals to the right.

 

The only problem with that is the radical left would likely feel disenfranchised and splinter off from the NDP.

I don't know how Singh could move to the centre with any credibility. The NDP has more value as a 3rd party with influence in a minority gov't. Moving more centre doesn't help them in that. 

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1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

let me stop you there 

 

I don't know how Singh could move to the centre with any credibility. The NDP has more value as a 3rd party with influence in a minority gov't. Moving more centre doesn't help them in that. 

Leadership doesn't start and end with Jagmeet Singh.  There are echelons of people who make up leadership in the party, and they'd be the ones who would have to make that decision.

 

By the way, being a 3rd party in a minority government with influence on policy is good, but being the governing party that draws up the policies is even better.  If they want to be a governing party, they can't play small; they need to understand the bigger picture (both in terms of federal politics/electability, and in terms of global affairs) and act accordingly.

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7 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Leadership doesn't start and end with Jagmeet Singh.  There are echelons of people who make up leadership in the party, and they'd be the ones who would have to make that decision.

This is the issue entirely

 

The Bloc:  Might have an ineffective leader, but some of the smartest MPs in the country are actually in their party.  Their party has some seriously repugnant individuals as wel but look at some of the resumes on their highest ranking people.  Will never make power but have some of the more credible MPs for their name

 

The Cons:  O'Toole is not a leader.  He has already proven he is far to reactive, has allowed the social voice to strong arm him and has already flip flopped on no less than 7 or 8 major issues.  Party has maybe one or two credible individuals but when your shining star is Pierre Poiliverre...there's a serious issue

 

The NDP:  Had some honest good working humans in the party.  But Singh is unelectable.  Nobody in the prairies will ever vote for a man of his...shall we say swarthy persuasion?  Added he left his party leaderless and without a voice allowing Cullen and Angus to be the voice of the party.  They have some of the most passionate and intelligent people in their support and rolls but will never be elected without a Layton and Cullen already said he has no desire neither does Angus

 

The Libs:  ...Well...Trudeau.....but still after some of the oldest names in the party, also has some of the most competent and credible and I still stand by freeland

 

The Greens and Berniers party...well.....

 

People forget they're not voting for a person they're voting for a party.  That is why C-10 was so idiotic, it was a decent bill until the stupidity was added to it.  Having competent party members is VASTLY more important than the figurehead in charge and honestly right now, only the Libs kinda appear to have that going for them after the NDP got slaughtered over the last 2 elections

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1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

People forget they're not voting for a person they're voting for a party.  

Kind of, but not entirely.  

 

In an ideal representative parliament system that House of Commons is modeled on, the electorate would be voting on the person to represent them.  There would be no "party" or "bloc" to speak of, as the MP would be there by virtue of their electorate's will.  However, such an ideal would not be practiceable, as there would be 338 different stripes, and the cacophony in the halls of discussion would be more akin to a rave party broadcasting thrash metal.  I wouldn't say nothing would ever get done, but it would certainly be with great difficulty given the range of different views and opinions in the House.  Plus economy of scale (because it's much easier to market a brand of a group than it is to market a brand of an individual - cost savings and war chests and shared strategists, oh my!) would eventually push the representatives towards forming their own cliques of like-minded individuals, which would ultimately put us back into the party system.  The Senate is the perfect example of what happens when a party disowns its members in an attempt to force responsible individual representation.

 

So the utopian version of our parliament system would be individuals representing ridings with no party infrastructure, but the reality of the situation is that the party-as-a-representative system is more strongly prevalent than the individual-as-a-representative system, with the occasional independent MP/MLA pushing through and elected to the House (as opposed to being kicked out of their party and sitting as an independent).

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I don't know if this should be it's own thread, or if posting here is the right place.  I do think that this is definitely something that needs to be addressed and investigated further as "official" reports prior to this discovery put the death toll at this school at far, far less than what was discovered.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tk-emlúps-te-secwépemc-215-children-former-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778

Remains of 215 children found buried at former B.C. residential school, First Nation says

Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc say ground-penetrating radar was used to locate remains

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13 hours ago, thedestroyerofworlds said:

I don't know if this should be it's own thread, or if posting here is the right place.  I do think that this is definitely something that needs to be addressed and investigated further as "official" reports prior to this discovery put the death toll at this school at far, far less than what was discovered.

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/tk-emlúps-te-secwépemc-215-children-former-kamloops-indian-residential-school-1.6043778

Remains of 215 children found buried at former B.C. residential school, First Nation says

Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc say ground-penetrating radar was used to locate remains

I'd like to believe that this is the "day of reckoning" with Canadian society or Canadian history, but the cynical part of me suspects that aside from the window dressing of flags at half-mast and hot air in the halls of our legislatures/parliaments, it's more likely that after its 15 minutes of sunshine, most people will want to have it shuttered and locked away again.  Much like how "global warming" (climate change) was Al Gore's "inconvenient truth", this is likely the Canadian government's "inconvenient truth" moment, and they can either choose to do something meaningful and reconcile properly with this part of the dark history (and there will be other findings like this that will surface, eventually), or shuffle it under the other "emerging" policy issues that will inevitably and invariably arise and allow them to find a way to let it disappear.

 

The fact that we have a minority government means that there's perhaps a better chance that this stays prominent for a while at least, and that hopefully more than just hot air will be the outcome.  What the government chooses to do though will speak volumes of how the crown truly sees their relations with the indigenous peoples here.  By extension, how we choose our government - and more importantly whether or not we hold them to task for meaningful reparations as a consequence of their forebearers' policy-driven transgressions - will speak volumes about us as a society choooses to view our relations with the indigenous peoples.

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1 minute ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'd like to believe that this is the "day of reckoning" with Canadian society or Canadian history, but the cynical part of me suspects that aside from the window dressing of flags at half-mast and hot air in the halls of our legislatures/parliaments, it's more likely that after its 15 minutes of sunshine, most people will want to have it shuttered and locked away again.  Much like how "global warming" (climate change) was Al Gore's "inconvenient truth", this is likely the Canadian government's "inconvenient truth" moment, and they can either choose to do something meaningful and reconcile properly with this part of the dark history (and there will be other findings like this that will surface, eventually), or shuffle it under the other "emerging" policy issues that will inevitably and invariably arise and allow them to find a way to let it disappear.

 

The fact that we have a minority government means that there's perhaps a better chance that this stays prominent for a while at least, and that hopefully more than just hot air will be the outcome.  What the government chooses to do though will speak volumes of how the crown truly sees their relations with the indigenous peoples here.  By extension, how we choose our government - and more importantly whether or not we hold them to task for meaningful reparations as a consequence of their forebearers' policy-driven transgressions - will speak volumes about us as a society choooses to view our relations with the indigenous peoples.

when we have 30% of our population supporting senators that think residential schools did some good, we're still in deep trouble. 

 

This is where the NDP can force things to stay more prominent and not let us look away collectively. Or worse, let the people who say "get over it" get power again. 

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'd like to believe that this is the "day of reckoning" with Canadian society or Canadian history, but the cynical part of me suspects that aside from the window dressing of flags at half-mast and hot air in the halls of our legislatures/parliaments, it's more likely that after its 15 minutes of sunshine, most people will want to have it shuttered and locked away again.  Much like how "global warming" (climate change) was Al Gore's "inconvenient truth", this is likely the Canadian government's "inconvenient truth" moment, and they can either choose to do something meaningful and reconcile properly with this part of the dark history (and there will be other findings like this that will surface, eventually), or shuffle it under the other "emerging" policy issues that will inevitably and invariably arise and allow them to find a way to let it disappear.

 

The fact that we have a minority government means that there's perhaps a better chance that this stays prominent for a while at least, and that hopefully more than just hot air will be the outcome.  What the government chooses to do though will speak volumes of how the crown truly sees their relations with the indigenous peoples here.  By extension, how we choose our government - and more importantly whether or not we hold them to task for meaningful reparations as a consequence of their forebearers' policy-driven transgressions - will speak volumes about us as a society choooses to view our relations with the indigenous peoples.

The government has to do something here.  The amount of bodies discovered was far, far more than what was officially recorded.  This school closed in the late 70's, so there are definitely survivors of this school who are alive and kicking.  Hell, there may even be parents of some of the children buried at that school who are still alive or who recently passed.  If we are truly about truth and reconciliation (intentionally using that here), then we need to get at the truth.  We need the truth to further hold those responsible accountable even if they are not alive.  We need the truth to have any hope of reconciliation.  That is the governments position, so they better put their money where their mouth is.

reski7t2d13ad271.jpg

Edited by thedestroyerofworlds
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I don't mean to take away from the residential school discussion because it is an important, and shameful, part of this country's history.

 

I thought this new program may be worth discussion as well. It's a 'Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund) - basically the gov is giving out 10-25k loans to black entrepreneurs. They offer up to 250k in financing options. This is a joint fund with contributions from the major Canadian banks as well. Honestly, kind of have mixed feelings about this. I get the premise and it's great that more people may have the opportunity to start their own business but I'm sure there are white, asian, indian, middle eastern folks that would also benefit from such a program. I believe there are similar programs for first nations citizens as well.

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/innovation-science-economic-development/news/2021/05/minister-ng-announces-the-launch-of-the-black-entrepreneurship-loan-fund.html

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2 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

I don't mean to take away from the residential school discussion because it is an important, and shameful, part of this country's history.

 

I thought this new program may be worth discussion as well. It's a 'Black Entrepreneurship Loan Fund) - basically the gov is giving out 10-25k loans to black entrepreneurs. They offer up to 250k in financing options. This is a joint fund with contributions from the major Canadian banks as well. Honestly, kind of have mixed feelings about this. I get the premise and it's great that more people may have the opportunity to start their own business but I'm sure there are white, asian, indian, middle eastern folks that would also benefit from such a program. I believe there are similar programs for first nations citizens as well.

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/innovation-science-economic-development/news/2021/05/minister-ng-announces-the-launch-of-the-black-entrepreneurship-loan-fund.html

one area where I know they do this is with R&D programs where people here with links back to places like India, Israel, etc. can access funds where part of the work is done in both countries and helps to create new trade links. 

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3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

one area where I know they do this is with R&D programs where people here with links back to places like India, Israel, etc. can access funds where part of the work is done in both countries and helps to create new trade links. 

Hmm didn't know that. But from my understanding there aren't any direct entrepreneur assistance programs like the one just announced. I guess my point is if I, as a white person, was unable to start a business but my black neighbour was given access to this program which made it possible for them to start that same business, with all other factors being equal, that isn't exactly the equity that we are striving for. It runs the risk further dividing people imo, and really is advantaging one group based on skin colour. I don't know, it's obviously a very complex issue. If it works, is well received, and leads to a bunch of successful small businesses then that's a great outcome.

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I’m surprised there isn’t a residential school thread already. 
 

This is among the biggest news items in Canada right now. 
 

If it’s not up soon, I’ll put it up myself later on tonight. 

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1 hour ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

Hmm didn't know that. But from my understanding there aren't any direct entrepreneur assistance programs like the one just announced. I guess my point is if I, as a white person, was unable to start a business but my black neighbour was given access to this program which made it possible for them to start that same business, with all other factors being equal, that isn't exactly the equity that we are striving for. It runs the risk further dividing people imo, and really is advantaging one group based on skin colour. I don't know, it's obviously a very complex issue. If it works, is well received, and leads to a bunch of successful small businesses then that's a great outcome.

I guess when I look at the suite of things available for R&D which Im most familiar with, there are great things like SR&ED, IRAP, NRC grants in particular that anyone can go for, and these other programs help a small number of people from typically under represented groups. I know what you're saying but I'm not sure anything is being taken away from anyone vs. under represented groups getting a shot at a small bit of funding. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2021 at 6:23 PM, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'd like to believe that this is the "day of reckoning" with Canadian society or Canadian history, but the cynical part of me suspects that aside from the window dressing of flags at half-mast and hot air in the halls of our legislatures/parliaments, it's more likely that after its 15 minutes of sunshine, most people will want to have it shuttered and locked away again.  Much like how "global warming" (climate change) was Al Gore's "inconvenient truth", this is likely the Canadian government's "inconvenient truth" moment, and they can either choose to do something meaningful and reconcile properly with this part of the dark history (and there will be other findings like this that will surface, eventually), or shuffle it under the other "emerging" policy issues that will inevitably and invariably arise and allow them to find a way to let it disappear.

 

The fact that we have a minority government means that there's perhaps a better chance that this stays prominent for a while at least, and that hopefully more than just hot air will be the outcome.  What the government chooses to do though will speak volumes of how the crown truly sees their relations with the indigenous peoples here.  By extension, how we choose our government - and more importantly whether or not we hold them to task for meaningful reparations as a consequence of their forebearers' policy-driven transgressions - will speak volumes about us as a society choooses to view our relations with the indigenous peoples.

 

What is Canada going to do though? Throw more money at it? And if that's the case how will they make sure the right people get an apology? As part Cree I have no direct relatives that were ever in a residential school, how will they make sure people like me don't benefit? Because in my opinion people like me who are only part Cree / choose your band, yet play the >=50% card for the benefits are scum.

Edited by canuckster19
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13 minutes ago, canuckster19 said:

 

What is Canada going to do though?

Bingo.  That's the billion dollar question.  I don't know that there's a specific answer for this as of yet, but meaningful dialogue with and between the appropriate people (and peoples) should be a starting point, followed by reconciliatory actions for which there is concensus.  And by dialogue, I don't mean the "dog and pony shows" that past governments - including this one - have done to create the appearance of dynamic action (but actually going nowhere), and then have the file shuffled under the stack of other "priorities" in hopes of it silently going away (or at least kicking it down the road to be a problem for a future government to deal with).

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