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Buyers Or Sellers? Should Not Even Be A Question.


TheGuardian_

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The Plan. A Plan. Do they have one?

 

The team is rebuilding, it is the first year without two hall of fame players, the team still only has maybe 3 NHL quality top six players under 25, the team has two to three older defencemen that can have a huge impact on a rebuild as tradeable assets. EP is a huge surprise, I think they expected him to be very good but no one expected him to be "Gretzky II".

 

Judging how good this team is by how bad other teams are is misleading, this team needs star players in the NHL, those are most likely through the draft and while there are always players that can be shown as stars in later picks they are a very low percentage picked in those ranges. Players on this team in the top six, some of them, do not belong as top six by most playoff teams. This team has been the worst over 3 1/2 years now so if a player is that good, why has the team been so bad?

 

It might be fun to imagine this team winning the Stanley Cup or even making a dash in the playoffs but accomplishing that may come at a huge expense for one blip of one season delaying true rebuilding for another 2 to 3 years. That is right, one dash, this year and the rebuild is delayed twice the amount of time. Instead of picking a top 7 player this year that can step into the NHL Immediately or the next year, they select a 15th that is an NHL player, just not a top six player for most NHL teams.  

 

Hopefully management has a plan for rebuilding that doesn't include demented hopes of stardom from 30th - to 145th overall picks as sure things or cornerstone players, hopefully they can see that this team is artificially being bumped up in the standings because other teams decided to rebuild and are doing what they have to get star players, go for the top 7 picks at the draft.

 

One bit of a plan can be guessed at by the type of FA's signed, defensive specialists. Over paid with term to take them to 2021, three years and they may be done as they age out.

 

I could hope they stick to a plan that saw them get younger with depth and used the assets they have accumulated and veterans to get top level selections/prospects, like Montreal used to do, trade vets for better picks and players.

 

The question of buyers or sellers should have been answered before the puck was dropped.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

The Plan. A Plan. Do they have one?

 

The team is rebuilding, it is the first year without two hall of fame players, the team still only has maybe 3 NHL quality top six players under 25, the team has two to three older defencemen that can have a huge impact on a rebuild as tradeable assets. EP is a huge surprise, I think they expected him to be very good but no one expected him to be "Gretzky II".

 

Judging how good this team is by how bad other teams are is misleading, this team needs star players in the NHL, those are most likely through the draft and while there are always players that can be shown as stars in later picks they are a very low percentage picked in those ranges. Players on this team in the top six, some of them, do not belong as top six by most playoff teams. This team has been the worst over 3 1/2 years now so if a player is that good, why has the team been so bad?

 

It might be fun to imagine this team winning the Stanley Cup or even making a dash in the playoffs but accomplishing that may come at a huge expense for one blip of one season delaying true rebuilding for another 2 to 3 years. That is right, one dash, this year and the rebuild is delayed twice the amount of time. Instead of picking a top 7 player this year that can step into the NHL Immediately or the next year, they select a 15th that is an NHL player, just not a top six player for most NHL teams.  

 

Hopefully management has a plan for rebuilding that doesn't include demented hopes of stardom from 30th - to 145th overall picks as sure things or cornerstone players, hopefully they can see that this team is artificially being bumped up in the standings because other teams decided to rebuild and are doing what they have to get star players, go for the top 7 picks at the draft.

 

One bit of a plan can be guessed at by the type of FA's signed, defensive specialists. Over paid with term to take them to 2021, three years and they may be done as they age out.

 

I could hope they stick to a plan that saw them get younger with depth and used the assets they have accumulated and veterans to get top level selections/prospects, like Montreal used to do, trade vets for better picks and players.

 

The question of buyers or sellers should have been answered before the puck was dropped.

 

 

Agree stay the coarse don't be fooled by minor success

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depends what we're buying, its not a simple yes or no. There might be a great hockey trade with an extension attached (Ferland?) or some other move that makes sense. 

 

This team isn't bad enough for a top 5 pick this year and as we've discussed before, a lot of people see value in making the playoffs. I don't want to see any high picks burned to achieve that but some other kind of deal? sure why not. 

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I don't think the Canucks should be stocking up players for a playoff run yet; but I also don't believe the answer is selling guys at the deadline either. I'd rather see them push hard for the playoffs with what they have and let the chips fall where they may come spring. 

 

As far our top six goes, we have our cornerstones in Pettersson, Horvat and Boeser. It's now just a matter of finding a winger or two who can effectively fill a complimentary role consistently. That's a much less daunting task than finding a franchise center, which the Canucks fortuitously found in Pettersson. 

 

The defense still needs work but simply having Quinn Hughes join the squad at the end of the season, or the beginning of the next, will be a big boost to the blueline's offensive production. 

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

depends what we're buying, its not a simple yes or no. There might be a great hockey trade with an extension attached (Ferland?) or some other move that makes sense. 

 

This team isn't bad enough for a top 5 pick this year and as we've discussed before, a lot of people see value in making the playoffs. I don't want to see any high picks burned to achieve that but some other kind of deal? sure why not. 

I still guess/figure a 26/27th spot finish and this time they move up rather than back, I don't see a first overall pick but a top 7 is more than possible and there are 3 to 4 players that are expected to be able to step into the NHL immediately.  

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Definitely shouldn’t be buyers or stand pat. Definitely should be sellers. Edler, Sutter, and Tanev etc are all depreciating assets. In terms of asset management, we definitely shouldn’t stay the course and lose them for nothing like we did with Hamhuis and the Sedins just for the arbitrary amount of value that getting bounced in the first round would provide. I don’t think getting stomped in the first round would provide that much value, especially at the expense of losing Edler for nothing or losing a shot at Hughes or Kappo in a year where we are hosting the draft.

 

Of course there are many Homer’s on this board and people that genuinely think that the minimal amount of playoff experience we would gain is actually worth that HUGE cost but I defintely don’t see it. What little experience we would gain in the playoffs would pale in comparison to whatever assets we get from being sellers at the deadline and the higher pick we would get IMO. We can always get that playoff experience next year or the year after. 

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3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

I still guess/figure a 26/27th spot finish and this time they move up rather than back, I don't see a first overall pick but a top 7 is more than possible and there are 3 to 4 players that are expected to be able to step into the NHL immediately.  

I just ran the lotto sim and we won 1st oa :lol: 

 

I guess its possible that we fall that far as the season gets tougher heading into the playoffs. Regardless, I agree with your general sentiment about not burning picks, but I'd love to see a hockey trade moving out Hutty for a big LW top 6 prospect (I know thats a long shot).

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1 minute ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Definitely shouldn’t be buyers or stand pat. Defiantly should be sellers. Edler, Sutter, and Tanev etc are depreciating assets. In terms of asset management, we definitely shouldn’t stay the course and lose them for nothing like we did with Hamhuis and the Sedins just for arbitrary amount of value getting bounced in the first round would provide. I don’t think getting stomped in the first round would provide that much value, especially at the expense of losing Edler for nothing or losing a shot at Hughes or Kappo in a year where we are hosting the draft.

 

Of course there are many Homer’s on this board and people that genuinely think that the minimal amount of playoff experience is actually worth that HUGE cost but I defintely don’t see it. What little experience we would gain in the playoffs would pale in comparison to whatever assets we get from being sellers at the deadline and the higher pick we would get IMO. We can always get that playoff experience next year or the year after. 

Alf is a HUGE HOMER, but accepts we are rebuilding our next core.  We need more draft picks, and the higher the pick the better.  I would add Baer to the list of guys to trade.  

huge homer.gif

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4 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

I don't think the Canucks should be stocking up players for a playoff run yet; but I also don't believe the answer is selling guys at the deadline either. I'd rather see them push hard for the playoffs with what they have and let the chips fall where they may come spring. 

 

As far our top six goes, we have our cornerstones in Pettersson, Horvat and Boeser. It's now just a matter of finding a winger or two who can effectively fill a complimentary role consistently. That's a much less daunting task than finding a franchise center, which the Canucks fortuitously found in Pettersson. 

 

The defense still needs work but simply having Quinn Hughes join the squad at the end of the season, or the beginning of the next, will be a big boost to the blueline's offensive production. 

That may be okay for a minor league team, one season at a time, but for a professional team they should be looking at least 3 years down the line, chips falling where they  may puts the team in perpetual rebuild or building and then they have to make trades to improve or stay in the middle of the pact for a long time, Minny, Colorado, Columbus, Calgary's 8 years, Islanders (Taveras years), many bad examples of just making or just about making the playoffs and years without doing much more.

While winning the cup or getting 1rst overall is hard, it is much harder to win the cup but getting a shot at first overall is much easier, "see what is in the system", "trade for the future", "no sense in rushing him/them back from injury", "salary dump" all these are statement for "tanking" late in the season.

 

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Just now, TheGuardian_ said:

That may be okay for a minor league team, one season at a time, but for a professional team they should be looking at least 3 years down the line, chips falling where they  may puts the team in perpetual rebuild or building and then they have to make trades to improve or stay in the middle of the pact for a long time, Minny, Colorado, Columbus, Calgary's 8 years, Islanders (Taveras years), many bad examples of just making or just about making the playoffs and years without doing much more.

While winning the cup or getting 1rst overall is hard, it is much harder to win the cup but getting a shot at first overall is much easier, "see what is in the system", "trade for the future", "no sense in rushing him/them back from injury", "salary dump" all these are statement for "tanking" late in the season.

 

Three years down the line Bo, Pettersson and Boeser will all be entering their prime years as players. I'd rather those years aren't wasted looking for "just one more" high draft pick.

 

I also don't believe it's simply a binary option between being a contender or aiming for 1st overall. 

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3 minutes ago, TheGuardian_ said:

That may be okay for a minor league team, one season at a time, but for a professional team they should be looking at least 3 years down the line, chips falling where they  may puts the team in perpetual rebuild or building and then they have to make trades to improve or stay in the middle of the pact for a long time, Minny, Colorado, Columbus, Calgary's 8 years, Islanders (Taveras years), many bad examples of just making or just about making the playoffs and years without doing much more.

While winning the cup or getting 1rst overall is hard, it is much harder to win the cup but getting a shot at first overall is much easier, "see what is in the system", "trade for the future", "no sense in rushing him/them back from injury", "salary dump" all these are statement for "tanking" late in the season.

 

Our players will never tank.  If we ever have a player who thinks that way, he's got to be moved.

Management, though (like you say) must plan for a team to have a Cup level core group in place down the road.  For us we have: Pettersson, Brock, Bo, Quinn, OJ and Demko

I see all the other guys as complimentary pieces, or interchangeable parts.  Jake is close to being a core piece, but he needs to fill the role of that mean SOB power forward a bit better.  

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3 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Three years down the line Bo, Pettersson and Boeser will all be entering their prime years as players. I'd rather those years aren't wasted looking for "just one more" high draft pick.

 

I also don't believe it's simply a binary option between being a contender or aiming for 1st overall. 

Where we sit right now though, with Edler’s contract expiring and us already being close to the deadline and the all star break, we wouldn’t be wasting their prime years. We just write off this half season that we have left .

 

That’s a far cry from writing off their prime years. Not even close.

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9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Our players will never tank.  If we ever have a player who thinks that way, he's got to be moved. 

Management, though (like you say) must plan for a team to have a Cup level core group in place down the road.  For us we have: Pettersson, Brock, Bo, Quinn, OJ and Demko

I see all the other guys as complimentary pieces, or interchangeable parts.  Jake is close to being a core piece, but he needs to fill the role of that mean SOB power forward a bit better.  

Players themselves are not necessarily going to tank, but that doesn't mean they won't "deflate" or save themselves from injuries in games that mean nothing. AHL players trying to get into the show will not slack off, but those are borderline players not likely to make a big difference on good playoff teams, the Canucks are like a mid team, a chance to show in the NHL.

As far as players that would tank, players that don't care about winning a cup should also be included because they are satisfied to play out the season and collect their money, be "professionals" and fulfil the contract.

 

The Canucks are loaded with "complimentary" pieces other teams could use so TDL deals may be in the works. Would trading Edler or Tanev for top draft picks be considered tanking? If done the impact on the team would be profound both immediately and in the future.

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exactly, we keep hearing some opinions on 650 that everything has changed now and the team is obligated to build a winner around EP40 now as in bring in the better pieces and be successful now.

 

The team still has a couple seasons of snagging some good players in the draft before things really move forward, nothing wrong competing for the Playoffs but zero need to add pieces to make a push unless ofcourse its a " hockey trade " right.

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1 minute ago, TheGuardian_ said:

Players themselves are not necessarily going to tank, but that doesn't mean they won't "deflate" or save themselves from injuries in games that mean nothing. AHL players trying to get into the show will not slack off, but those are borderline players not likely to make a big difference on good playoff teams, the Canucks are like a mid team, a chance to show in the NHL.

As far as players that would tank, players that don't care about winning a cup should also be included because they are satisfied to play out the season and collect their money, be "professionals" and fulfil the contract.

 

The Canucks are laded with "complimentary" pieces other teams could use so TDL deals may be in the works. Would trading Edler or Tanev for top draft picks be considered tanking? If done the impact on the team would be profound both immediately and in the future.

We are clearly on the same wave-length today.  (I'm not drinking yet:lol:)

I think we should be open to trading any player, who is deemed not part of our next core, for draft picks.  I think we need to keep one of Edler or Tanev to help the young D learn the league, and take heavier minutes.  We need one of Sutter or Beagle (just signed Beagle so likely him) to take the heavy lifting from Bo.  I like Rousell's energy too, so I would keep him.  The rest should be open to being traded for picks.  The higher the pick the better.  

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10 minutes ago, Tomatoes11 said:

Where we sit right now though, with Edler’s contract expiring and us already being close to the deadline and the all star break, we wouldn’t be wasting their prime years. We just write off this half season that we have left .

 

That’s a far cry from writing off their prime years. Not even close.

It isn't but I'm pretty familiar with where these discussion go and it's always something along the line of "if we don't have a first overall, we'll never be contenders. So if we're not a contender this year, aim for 1st overall". Repeat for the next 3 years and soon you're wasting prime years. 

 

Why write off the season when they're still in the hunt for a wildcard spot? By Bo's own words, having something to play for at this time of the year has given the team a much different attitude than previous years. 

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2 minutes ago, ReggieBush said:

Stand Pat. Don't sell or buy major pieces (for example MDZ can get moved). Don't tell the team you are giving up on them, but don't buy foolishly in hope of making a deep run.

 

@TheGuardian_ We have 4 top 6 fowards 26 and under, but 2 of them are play driving centers. We are in a good position.

That's what I think some people are forgetting too: we're not a bubble team with an aging core that needs to be replaced soon. With our current top six core, Bo is the "old man" at 23. 

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