J.I.A.H.N Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Not quite sure how this plays out in terms of adds, and for who?????? Mtl trades Karl Alzner 50% + Josh Brook + and 2019 1st for Ben Hutton + Nikolay Goldobin Hutton has turned the corner and is playing some great hockey, and Montreal really needs some LHD help, as Alzner has disappointed, should we let Hutton go? Well yes, because we will most likely have to expose him at the draft in 2 years at the Seattle expansion draft, and with Hughes, Juolevi and Brisebois, who I feel will start to push for a spot next year, and Edler still in the loop for 3 more years ( a guess), we should be set at LHD, and with the addition of Brook, we will be looking a heck of a lot better at RHD, with Tanev, Brook, Woo, and Stecher. This also leaves Gudbranson looking from the outside and a potential trading asset down the road, when Brook or Woo are ready.... The 2019 first from Montreal, will be in a perfect position (currently 24th) to pick a great prospect and would allow us to potentially move up with that pick, or Vancouver's pick, to fill holes we may have in the future. Goldobin, who has his ups and downs, is IMO, not a 1st line player, and may not be the secondary piece, although I would argue that taking 50% of Alzner's contract softens the extra's that Montreal may need. It should also be noted that by the very fact of the trade, Montreal clears a deadwood spot, which has value in itself. (There is no doubt some Montreal fans will complain about this, and some Vancouver fans, as well, but any alterations can be made by Benning) (This is only the foundation of the trade) As for Alzner, he seems to be in and out of the line up (mostly out), but again, if Vancouver takes a secondary retention, there may be someone that could want him at 1.1 M per year X3 otherwise we either buy him out, freddy beach him, or put him on LTIR, because he is hurting (Again, Benning can figure this out) So at the end of the day, we end up with at aforementioned prospect list for the foreseeable future...………….. Hughes Brook Juolevi Woo Brisebois Stecher Edler Tanev Sautner Gudbranson McEneny Biega …………………….. Tryamkin?????? With the opportunity to go into the 2019 Draft with Vancouver's 1st (currently 9th OA) + Mtl's 1st (currently 24th OA) + Vancouver's 2nd (currently 40th OA) all which have a real possibility of being moved up if Benning wants (although 9th OA will be a real good player) I believe that Vancouver fans and players could accept this, short term, and with Hutton and Goldobin both due for a raise, we would be saving cap, even with taking Alzner, and would put us in a great spot to take on a UFA forward this summer (Of which there should be plenty of) Many will say, that this is an intentional "Tank", but if all are honest, you must admit that it is obvious we need some high end wing help, and if that is the case, we are in a better position now at the end of our rebuild to acquire that player, than 2 or 3 years down the road, as our other players all mature ......Pettersson and Boeser included. (And we are still looking for that winger) It makes sense to do it now, and once Edler is back, will be the time to make the move. We will have Hughes in the fold, and Leivo, Eriksson and Baertschi can hold down the LW until the end of the season...….........….with Gaudette and McEwen who can fill in if one goes down...…..not perfect, but again temporary (not to mention Dahlen)………..and if we drop down to 6th OA spot and it gets real interesting...…….If we are still floating at a game above 500 in a week or so, when Edler gets back, we will be lucky OK...….Flame away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beagle had landed Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 You are aware of the caliber of players that it takes to acquire a 1st round pick, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 With how great Hutton has been why on earth would we trade him? Especially while Edler’s out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, The Beagle had landed said: You are aware of the caliber of players that it takes to acquire a 1st round pick, right? Well there is a group of Poster that think that Sutter is a late 1st Hutton's playing ah hell of a lot better than that and feel it anyone cane gert a 31 minute per nighty Dman from any team...good luck with them, has raised his value immensely Goldy is scoring point and is in the mix Alzner is a paper weight.....................cash dump foor sure If we would have to add a 2020 - 2nd ....if needed...not sure I to Not all first's are valued same....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Goldobin is essentially worthless to Montreal. (He’s not better than anyone they’re currebtky dressing in their top 9. And that’s WITHOUT including Shaw and Byron) So you’re asking for a 1st and a top prospect for Hutton. Also. Montreal has a ton of cap space. So getting rid of Alzner is not a big priority. No go from Montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beagle had landed Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Montreal is not giving up there first rounder for a 3rd pairing dman and a project prospect when they could trade if for an actual player of significance. I understand your reasoning, but it doesn't make sense for either team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 Montreal has plenty of cap space. Bergevin actually talked of leveraging it to take on bad contracts à la Mason/Armia - they bought out Mason for the Jets and got Armia and 2 draft picks in return. They are not going to use picks/prospects and get a diminished return on any trade just to move Alzner. They have no need for his cap space. Goldobin brings no value to Montreal. Bergevin insists on character and wants players who will never give up. He felt they lost so many games the previous season because guys didn't battle hard enough. Players like Danault and Byron were also pretty vocal about that. They cleaned house over the summer to change that mentality. They insist on work ethic, commitment from everyone and a never quit attitude - that's not Goldobin. Hutton was rumoured on the trade block last season. His value hasn't increased to earn a 1st round pick and a key prospect. Hutton will also be a UFA in 1 season and he has arbitration rights. He could end up being just a one year rental before testing the market. It diminishes his value. He is also unproven in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 We don’t want that cap, and that’s way too much to give up to move it if I’m Montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 On 2/9/2019 at 12:44 AM, mll said: Montreal has plenty of cap space. Bergevin actually talked of leveraging it to take on bad contracts à la Mason/Armia - they bought out Mason (cost 1.387 M for 1 year) for the Jets and got Armia (13pts in 31 games) and 2 (4th + 7th) draft picks in return. They are not going to use picks/prospects and get a diminished return on any trade just to move Alzner. They have no need for his cap space. Goldobin (24 points in 49 games) brings no value to Montreal. Bergevin insists on character and wants players who will never give up. He felt they lost so many games the previous season because guys didn't battle hard enough. Players like Danault and Byron were also pretty vocal about that. They cleaned house over the summer to change that mentality. They insist on work ethic, commitment from everyone and a never quit attitude - that's not Goldobin. Hutton was rumoured on the trade block last season. His value hasn't increased to earn a 1st round pick and a key prospect. Hutton will also be a (RFA) UFA in 1 season and he has arbitration rights. He "could" end up being just a one year rental before testing the market. (Or he could sign a 5 year extension or be traded) It diminishes his value. He is also unproven in the playoffs.(Give me a break...that is the risk of every hockey player) OK, Let's slow this train down a bit...…….. Ok...….Alzner is dead wood...…..trading and only paying out 1/2 his salary, is something that any team would do under those circumstances, if they wanted to get rid of him..... (see how much Winnipeg paid out for Steve Mason as you pointed out)….so Vancouver's offer to take 2.2 of Alzner salary for 3 times as long, is a pretty good deal for Montreal if these types of deals still hold water (thanks for bringing that up, LOL) Secondly, Goldobin has more points than Armia, Lehkonen, and Shaw...albeit Lehkonen is pretty much on par, but he was drafted in the 2nd round 55th overall, where as Goldobin was draft in the 1st round 27th overall...….so being that Goldobin was draft higher, he must have thought to have a higher ceiling......probably still does. But, not to push that point......Goldy is basically the same age as Baertschi was when the Canucks traded for him with a 2nd, and he was no where near the same calibre of player when traded as Goldobin is now (Keep in mind that Goldobin does play 1st line in the NHL occasionally) I think you under-rate Goldobin....By Baertschi standards he is still a rookie, and is every bit as good, and with a higher ceiling than Lehkonen in Montreal. So, I am a little confused on your opinion of Goldobin in comparison to Montreal wingers? As for Hutton...his last 3 games have been 28, 31, and 26 minutes of Ice time per game against the other teams best forwards, and I pretty sure he is even in those 3 games...he has taken the test is still standing...why the disrespect? this year has been a very good year for Hutton and not paired with Gudbranson most of the time, would have had a much better showing, or at least that is what I believe, and what the current short glimpse has said, while playing with both Tanev and Stecher....the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If Hutton plays this well next year,,,it will cost a lot more, but you pay for what you get! So, maybe you don't like the deal, I am ok with that...…..but not everything is as you say, so I am a little suspect of this opinion...…..(not that I do not like you opinion generally, because I do......but?) I don't know...maybe it wasn't a good trade, but I don't think your argument was well presented......IMO PS..on a less defensive note...…...don't you think Montreal is in a win now mode? Regardless of my trade? (Friendly Question) I mean Price and Weber just are not getting any younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 52 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: OK, Let's slow this train down a bit...…….. Ok...….Alzner is dead wood...…..trading and only paying out 1/2 his salary, is something that any team would do under those circumstances, if they wanted to get rid of him..... (see how much Winnipeg paid out for Steve Mason as you pointed out)….so Vancouver's offer to take 2.2 of Alzner salary for 3 times as long, is a pretty good deal for Montreal if these types of deals still hold water (thanks for bringing that up, LOL) Secondly, Goldobin has more points than Armia, Lehkonen, and Shaw...albeit Lehkonen is pretty much on par, but he was drafted in the 2nd round 55th overall, where as Goldobin was draft in the 1st round 27th overall...….so being that Goldobin was draft higher, he must have thought to have a higher ceiling......probably still does. But, not to push that point......Goldy is basically the same age as Baertschi was when the Canucks traded for him with a 2nd, and he was no where near the same calibre of player when traded as Goldobin is now (Keep in mind that Goldobin does play 1st line in the NHL occasionally) I think you under-rate Goldobin....By Baertschi standards he is still a rookie, and is every bit as good, and with a higher ceiling than Lehkonen in Montreal. So, I am a little confused on your opinion of Goldobin in comparison to Montreal wingers? As for Hutton...his last 3 games have been 28, 31, and 26 minutes of Ice time per game against the other teams best forwards, and I pretty sure he is even in those 3 games...he has taken the test is still standing...why the disrespect? this year has been a very good year for Hutton and not paired with Gudbranson most of the time, would have had a much better showing, or at least that is what I believe, and what the current short glimpse has said, while playing with both Tanev and Stecher....the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If Hutton plays this well next year,,,it will cost a lot more, but you pay for what you get! So, maybe you don't like the deal, I am ok with that...…..but not everything is as you say, so I am a little suspect of this opinion...…..(not that I do not like you opinion generally, because I do......but?) I don't know...maybe it wasn't a good trade, but I don't think your argument was well presented......IMO PS..on a less defensive note...…...don't you think Montreal is in a win now mode? Regardless of my trade? (Friendly Question) I mean Price and Weber just are not getting any younger. As mll mentioned. Montreal has a ton of cap space and no significant players to re-sign. Cap space isn’t an issue. Cap space WAS going to be an issue for Winnipeg, there’s the difference. Goldobin’s points are misleading. More than half are secondary assists and nearly all are due to Pettersson. He did practically nothing when Pettersson was out. Armia and Lehkonen are both very defensively responsible. Something that eludes Goldobin. They also have shown chemistry with Kotkaniemi (all three are Finns). Goldobin brings nothing to the party that Montreal would value over the guys they have. As far as Hutton goes. He’s interesting. But in no way worth a 1st and a top prospect. Not even remotely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 45 minutes ago, qwijibo said: As mll mentioned. Montreal has a ton of cap space and no significant players to re-sign. Cap space isn’t an issue. Cap space WAS going to be an issue for Winnipeg, there’s the difference. Goldobin’s points are misleading. More than half are secondary assists and nearly all are due to Pettersson. He did practically nothing when Pettersson was out. Armia and Lehkonen are both very defensively responsible. Something that eludes Goldobin. They also have shown chemistry with Kotkaniemi (all three are Finns). Goldobin brings nothing to the party that Montreal would value over the guys they have. As far as Hutton goes. He’s interesting. But in no way worth a 1st and a top prospect. Not even remotely. QW The trade is not going to happen....I know that before I wrote it.... But cap space is cap space, and you nor I have any idea what Montreal is going to do with it.....maybe nothing...maybe Panarin? Who friggin knows....but people argue like they do know......there have been lots of trades when we never seen it coming.....Gretz and Orr are the 2 biggest...Howe and Hull jumping to the WHA....that may be to long ago for you, but the point is look at the names...…..who would have thought? Subban moving out of Montreal for Weber.....now we knew Subban was going....but Weber kind of came out of the blue...….you just don't know.... Another thing that happens too much around here is people take things too literally...…...if not Goldobin...maybe someone else....instead of the critic, suggest a change.... But I will stand by my point...……...and 3 Finns? come on since when is that a reason? LOL You are right...….Hutton by himself does not get you that...... But I wasn't just offering that...and maybe Montreal is working on another trade that needs a Goldobin in it....you just don't know...…... So......my point is look at value, explain how my value is off...………..no problem...…...some of you guys give really good reasons for value...... But, to just kick it out because you said so, doesn't work for me...…..I always try presenting it to you like we are friends sitting in a bar, debating....now you may laugh at me after a couple of beers, but if you're into it, we would go back and forth...…..hopefully poking at each other as we counter...….sometimes after 6 or 12, we might agree..... That is how I hope it goes here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 8 hours ago, janisahockeynut said: OK, Let's slow this train down a bit...…….. Ok...….Alzner is dead wood...…..trading and only paying out 1/2 his salary, is something that any team would do under those circumstances, if they wanted to get rid of him..... (see how much Winnipeg paid out for Steve Mason as you pointed out)….so Vancouver's offer to take 2.2 of Alzner salary for 3 times as long, is a pretty good deal for Montreal if these types of deals still hold water (thanks for bringing that up, LOL) Secondly, Goldobin has more points than Armia, Lehkonen, and Shaw...albeit Lehkonen is pretty much on par, but he was drafted in the 2nd round 55th overall, where as Goldobin was draft in the 1st round 27th overall...….so being that Goldobin was draft higher, he must have thought to have a higher ceiling......probably still does. But, not to push that point......Goldy is basically the same age as Baertschi was when the Canucks traded for him with a 2nd, and he was no where near the same calibre of player when traded as Goldobin is now (Keep in mind that Goldobin does play 1st line in the NHL occasionally) I think you under-rate Goldobin....By Baertschi standards he is still a rookie, and is every bit as good, and with a higher ceiling than Lehkonen in Montreal. So, I am a little confused on your opinion of Goldobin in comparison to Montreal wingers? As for Hutton...his last 3 games have been 28, 31, and 26 minutes of Ice time per game against the other teams best forwards, and I pretty sure he is even in those 3 games...he has taken the test is still standing...why the disrespect? this year has been a very good year for Hutton and not paired with Gudbranson most of the time, would have had a much better showing, or at least that is what I believe, and what the current short glimpse has said, while playing with both Tanev and Stecher....the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If Hutton plays this well next year,,,it will cost a lot more, but you pay for what you get! So, maybe you don't like the deal, I am ok with that...…..but not everything is as you say, so I am a little suspect of this opinion...…..(not that I do not like you opinion generally, because I do......but?) I don't know...maybe it wasn't a good trade, but I don't think your argument was well presented......IMO PS..on a less defensive note...…...don't you think Montreal is in a win now mode? Regardless of my trade? (Friendly Question) I mean Price and Weber just are not getting any younger. Galchenyuk is a more skilled player than Domi and has higher upside. He was more productive yet Bergevin traded him one for one. Character. As explained higher up Bergevin, Molson and players talked about needing guys who will never give up. They talked about how they lost too many games because some guys were just not playing hard enough. It divided the room and Bergevin made it a priority to clean house and move those who did not have impeccable work ethic and fit their character standards. Goldobin is not a player for Montreal. Goldobin has always played top-6 alongside either Pettersson or Horvat and can't seem to produce away from Pettersson and can't even score on Pettersson's set-ups. Goldobin could not play Armia or Lehkonen's role. Lekhonen is one of their As this season - testament to his character. Btw Baer was playing with Horvat in a shutdown role his 1st season. WD saw Horvat as a defensive C and not an offensive C. Sutter was brought in as a C2 who was stuck behind Crosby/Malkin and he was also out injured for the season. It's Green that put Sutter back in a shutdown role. Baer-Horvat were Vancouver's shutdown line. McCann was a rookie C, Vey couldn't play that role and the Sedins were the top scoring line. Scoring as a shutdown line where defence is the 1st priority is not the same as scoring in a top-6 role. Horvat was also only in his 2nd season vs Pettersson who is an elite talent and a proven Horvat. Fwiw I try to look at deals through what they say rather than through my own opinion. Bergevin says he doesn't want rentals and wants to stay the course - Hutton is potentially a rental. He has no real incentive to sign in Montreal when he can test free agency in a year. Goldobin does not fit Bergevin's definition of character. Bergevin doesn't seem at all concerned about the age of Price/Weber. He brushes it off and cites Chara's longevity when media asks him about Weber's age. Price is in the 1st year of an 8-year deal - he certainly expects him to play at a high level for more than a few years. They are in re-tool mode. The team is doing much better than expected but Bergevin says he wants to stay the course. He doesn't exclude trading picks/prospects to improve the team but it has to be for the long term. The deal also doesn't seem to be one that Benning is looking to do. He is looking to make hockey deals and wants the team to take the next step - not wait on draft picks who might or might not become players. His comment about how guys at the end of the 1st round might not even play is pretty revealing. Botchford thinks that the Canucks will be aggressive in free agency. Cap space will be important. The length of Boeser's deal will give an indication of the window - he is a UFA in 5 seasons and could sign for up to 8 years. Benning knows that Tavares, McDavid and Matthews have changed the landscape and that he will be in tough to retain his star players if the team continues to be average. The salary cap will also catch up much sooner than later with young players no longer willing to take a pay cut to subsidise veterans who are less important to their teams' success. They are asking for UFA money right off their ELCs and are looking for shorter deals to reach free agency earlier and have control of their future. How many top end players are thinking that McDavid committed too long to the wrong team and is wasting his best years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.I.A.H.N Posted February 12, 2019 Author Share Posted February 12, 2019 17 hours ago, mll said: Goldobin is 23 Hutton is not a rental But you got way more fight in you than me tonite Getting ready to watch the game Been shovelling way too much snow Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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