ChuckNORRIS4Cup Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 4 hours ago, IBatch said: Jovo might be the most compete defenseman we’ve ever had, and the closest thing to a true number one as well (Reinhart as well). The league is drafting smaller skilled players and it’s hard to argue against the results...just look at the leagues top scorers and it’s mind boggling at the quick turnaround, we are approaching 95 levels (first year of the dead puck era). That’s something I wasn’t sure we’d ever see again and for that I’m extremely happy to see. Maybe it’s just cyclic and it’s the sheer number of quality players both already in the league, and the ones coming in, or maybe it’s becuase it’s become all about skating and skill. I miss the hitting and fighting, the hockey is way better with both, but if I had to trade off on one so we could watch more 5-4 games and less 2-1 games I think it’s worth it. I do know that every single player asked says fighting belongs in the game and that they love having guys on their team that can keep cheap shots from occurring and keep them safe. Can’t think of a single player now or previous that has said otherwise. They love their “enforcer”, now that’s guys like Wilson and every GM and team would love having him on their team. Dirty hits and cheap shots are an easy way to get rid of a star...we’ve seen it twice already this year, and that’s not even the playoffs. Guddy is fine as a bottom pairing guy, and until we can replace his intimidation factor (Hominic and Getzlaf say hello), we are way better with him on the team then without...just wish he’d play with more of an edge like you’ve pointed out, and I think he will if he wants to stay in this league. As an aside I wonder what will happen when a Mckinnon or McDavid or Mathews or Kucherov is injured in the playoffs as a result of either a legal or illegal play. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if one or two teams went out and got a few tough SOBs that would do anything it stay in the league and protect their teammates...and start the arms race all over again. I always liked Jovo he was the man, but I believe Ohlund was this team best complete D ever, if we want to go there But the league is in a middle of a transition, some are jumping the gun and trying the new way of getting smaller and faster players, while some teams are still preferring to have more bigger guys instead. But as long as there are still big guys who can hit, the small guys will still get injured, so deciding on which route to take is tough right now, basically you just need a good mix of both for now, and just see what happens as the years go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 5 hours ago, IBatch said: Jovo might be the most compete defenseman we’ve ever had, and the closest thing to a true number one as well (Reinhart as well). The league is drafting smaller skilled players and it’s hard to argue against the results...just look at the leagues top scorers and it’s mind boggling at the quick turnaround, we are approaching 95 levels (first year of the dead puck era). That’s something I wasn’t sure we’d ever see again and for that I’m extremely happy to see. Maybe it’s just cyclic and it’s the sheer number of quality players both already in the league, and the ones coming in, or maybe it’s becuase it’s become all about skating and skill. I miss the hitting and fighting, the hockey is way better with both, but if I had to trade off on one so we could watch more 5-4 games and less 2-1 games I think it’s worth it. I do know that every single player asked says fighting belongs in the game and that they love having guys on their team that can keep cheap shots from occurring and keep them safe. Can’t think of a single player now or previous that has said otherwise. They love their “enforcer”, now that’s guys like Wilson and every GM and team would love having him on their team. Dirty hits and cheap shots are an easy way to get rid of a star...we’ve seen it twice already this year, and that’s not even the playoffs. Guddy is fine as a bottom pairing guy, and until we can replace his intimidation factor (Hominic and Getzlaf say hello), we are way better with him on the team then without...just wish he’d play with more of an edge like you’ve pointed out, and I think he will if he wants to stay in this league. As an aside I wonder what will happen when a Mckinnon or McDavid or Mathews or Kucherov is injured in the playoffs as a result of either a legal or illegal play. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if one or two teams went out and got a few tough SOBs that would do anything it stay in the league and protect their teammates...and start the arms race all over again. Most complete dmen we've had in order Ohlund Salo Jovo Just too bad Salo was hurt so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 Is this yet another I don't like (insert Canucks player name) thread?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 So many posters here called for Guddy and Sutter to be moved ..... #oldnews was pretty hard on everyone for that opinion..... Time for the Canucks to rebuild the foundation...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, ChuckNORRIS4Cup said: I always liked Jovo he was the man, but I believe Ohlund was this team best complete D ever, if we want to go there But the league is in a middle of a transition, some are jumping the gun and trying the new way of getting smaller and faster players, while some teams are still preferring to have more bigger guys instead. But as long as there are still big guys who can hit, the small guys will still get injured, so deciding on which route to take is tough right now, basically you just need a good mix of both for now, and just see what happens as the years go on. Ohlund was solid, but never produced at a level that approaches top defenseman, a very good number two. Edler isn’t that much different, other than he doesn’t hit as much or as hard. Jovonoski PPG was close to elite for the time period, and also layed guys out and when he fought did it like his life depended on it. Both had size and skated well for big men. It’s been awhile but I think Jovo finished with over 1000 games and 400 points, which is pretty darned good for a guy that played most of his years and all his prime in the dead puck era, Ohlund played more after the lock-out and was part of two cores, never thought of him as a number one defenseman, and wasn’t when the two played together for us, Jovo was the clear number one on the team. Just my opinion. Edit: he won a gold medal at juniors, a gold medal at the Olympics went to seven all-star games and was voted as the Canucks best defenseman three years in a row from 2001-2003, when both he and Ohlund played together...food for thought, we can’t say that about any other defenseman that’s ever played on our team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 hours ago, canuck73_3 said: Most complete dmen we've had in order Ohlund Salo Jovo Just too bad Salo was hurt so often. Really Salo? I’d pick quite a few guys before him, but I agree with the hurt so often part. edit: Jovo scored over 500 points, is currently 67 all-time, Ohlund is behind guys like Aucoin, Hamhuis and McSorely, 134ish...Salo well it’s hard to score from the infirmary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 hour ago, IBatch said: Really Salo? I’d pick quite a few guys before him, but I agree with the hurt so often part. edit: Jovo scored over 500 points, is currently 67 all-time, Ohlund is behind guys like Aucoin, Hamhuis and McSorely, 134ish...Salo well it’s hard to score from the infirmary... Playwise as a Canuck I stand by that list, points as a defenceman play less of a role and only a piece of the puzzle in overall play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 38 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: Playwise as a Canuck I stand by that list, points as a defenceman play less of a role and only a piece of the puzzle in overall play. Me too, Jovonoski 7 all-star games, Salo zero. And that’s without been known for just his scoring, plus he was good enough for the Olympics playing for a country that fills half the NHL with players, and played a role in winning a golf medal. Salo was good no doubt when he played, but not exactly what I’d call a compete defenseman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, IBatch said: Me too, Jovonoski 7 all-star games, Salo zero. And that’s without been known for just his scoring, plus he was good enough for the Olympics playing for a country that fills half the NHL with players, and played a role in winning a golf medal. Salo was good no doubt when he played, but not exactly what I’d call a compete defenseman. I don't take all star games into account for anything wadr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, IBatch said: Me too, Jovonoski 7 all-star games, Salo zero. And that’s without been known for just his scoring, plus he was good enough for the Olympics playing for a country that fills half the NHL with players, and played a role in winning a golf medal. Salo was good no doubt when he played, but not exactly what I’d call a compete defenseman. John Garrett almost won the "MVP" of a NHL allstar game once (ask him he'll tell you! ). I remember Jovocop 'shutting down' Eric Lindros in the post-season when Lindros was in prime beast mode (I think Ed was a rookie at the time)....I thought, boy is this guy going to be a great defensive defensman when he gets to be in his prime (strength, compete level, etc.,). Then he 'went the other way' where his he developed further his offensive abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said: I don't take all star games into account for anything wadr Ok, that’s just all star selections, you know when they pick the best players from each conference and play a game (or it used to be before fan votes and token players sent to represent each team). That’s ok, I get it you like Salo, I like Babych but would never think to say he’s the most complete defenseman we’ve ever had or the closest thing to a true number one. 67th all-time in scoring for defenseman, over 500 points playing on some pretty bad teams too, was tough and could cream guys, and was a good skater for a big man etc. Might as well say Aucion, he had more points than Ohlund and was a pretty solid defenseman in the league for a long time, and the record for PPG in a season. I started this by saying Jovo is the closest thing we’ve had to a true number one/complete defenseman, Ohlund and Salo were good too but he was on a different level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck73_3 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, IBatch said: Ok, that’s just all star selections, you know when they pick the best players from each conference and play a game (or it used to be before fan votes and token players sent to represent each team). That’s ok, I get it you like Salo, I like Babych but would never think to say he’s the most complete defenseman we’ve ever had or the closest thing to a true number one. 67th all-time in scoring for defenseman, over 500 points playing on some pretty bad teams too, was tough and could cream guys, and was a good skater for a big man etc. Might as well say Aucion, he had more points than Ohlund and was a pretty solid defenseman in the league for a long time, and the record for PPG in a season. I started this by saying Jovo is the closest thing we’ve had to a true number one/complete defenseman, Ohlund and Salo were good too but he was on a different level. We’ll agree to disagree then because that's my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, canuck73_3 said: We’ll agree to disagree then because that's my list. No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, IBatch said: I started this by saying Jovo is the closest thing we’ve had to a true number one/complete defenseman, Ohlund and Salo were good too but he was on a different level. Paul Reinhart was THAT good even when he was at the end of his career here. Course there's NO WAY the Flamers would have traded him to us if he was still in his prime. Still, it almost came to bite the Flamers in the butt as Reinhart and some noname rookie (Linden ) almost upset the Flamers in the post-season (in fact, the Flamers cheated in the final game of the series in OT as Otto kicked in the winning goal). Yes, THAT was the year the Flamers won the cup. A Paul Reinhart in his prime + Guds would make for a very good D pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckNORRIS4Cup Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 hours ago, IBatch said: Ohlund was solid, but never produced at a level that approaches top defenseman, a very good number two. Edler isn’t that much different, other than he doesn’t hit as much or as hard. Jovonoski PPG was close to elite for the time period, and also layed guys out and when he fought did it like his life depended on it. Both had size and skated well for big men. It’s been awhile but I think Jovo finished with over 1000 games and 400 points, which is pretty darned good for a guy that played most of his years and all his prime in the dead puck era, Ohlund played more after the lock-out and was part of two cores, never thought of him as a number one defenseman, and wasn’t when the two played together for us, Jovo was the clear number one on the team. Just my opinion. Edit: he won a gold medal at juniors, a gold medal at the Olympics went to seven all-star games and was voted as the Canucks best defenseman three years in a row from 2001-2003, when both he and Ohlund played together...food for thought, we can’t say that about any other defenseman that’s ever played on our team Yes Jovo was more offensively minded then Ohlund and he preferred to jump into the rush more and was also used in offensive roles more, but Ohlund was much better defensively then Jovo and Ohlund was used more in defensive roles but was capable of producing offensively as well. Jovo had a little more edge to his game physically which is why I liked him so much, even though Ohlund didn't go running at guys he stood his ground and used his big body when needed. It's just when you say complete I look at someone who excelled at all aspects of the game, not just someone who excelled more offensively then the other or more physically. I feel Ohlund checks off all 3, offense, defense, physical, and did all of them great and had no weak area in his game, where as Jovo had a weak area and it was defense but definitely made up for it from his offence and physical play. Like you said though you have your choice I got mine both are still good choices no matter what lol, and both better then Gudbranson though As for the fan vote one Ohlund won it 4 times in 8 years, him and 3 others have the record winning it 4 times. For 6 years straight Ohlund and Jovo both won it 3 times and were both there for all 6 years together, Ohlund won it the first year then Jovo won it the next 3 years then Ohlund won it the next 2 years while playing together... food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 6 hours ago, IBatch said: Really Salo? I’d pick quite a few guys before him, but I agree with the hurt so often part. edit: Jovo scored over 500 points, is currently 67 all-time, Ohlund is behind guys like Aucoin, Hamhuis and McSorely, 134ish...Salo well it’s hard to score from the infirmary... Just a note to everyone that even today, Babych is 24th all time in NHL defenseman scoring. Would have been something like 17th when he retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 I think people forgot just how bad Jovo was in his own end. He was a turnover machine, who took really dumb penalties, but made up for it with his play in the offensive zone. The best “complete” defensemen, should unanimously be Lumme. This guy was a force at both ends, who can move the puck out of his own zone with ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said: Just a note to everyone that even today, Babych is 24th all time in NHL defenseman scoring. Would have been something like 17th when he retired. Absolutely, one of my all time favourite defenseman, but when he got here he was no longer used as a number one, a bit long in the tooth. I liked how he could hang on to anyone, and how strong he was around the net...remember Probert lining him up then Babych hip checked him behind the net and he went flying over him. He was consistently good for us, not much different that way then Ohlund or Salo. His WNP Year’s If continued would have put him in the HHOF, at the time he was producing like Borque, but with a better mustachios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duodenum Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Worst Goals against average per 60 minutes (Defensemen >800 minutes played) 2007-08 3.16 (Rob Blake/Paul Ranger) 2008-09 3.32 (Brendan Witt) 2009-10 3.29 (Steve Staios) 2010-11 3.35 (Filip Kuba) 2011-12 3.39 (Milan Jurcina) 2013 3.66 (Mark Giordano) 2013-14 3.35 (Dustin Byfuglien) 2014-15 3.32 (Jared Cowen) 2015-16 2.96 (Kris Russell) 2016-17 3.18 (Travis Hamonic) 2017-18 3.49 (Nick Leddy) 2018-19 4.04 (Erik Gudbranson) (2nd place 3.64 - Thomas Chabot) Going to be a record breaking season in the 'advanced stats' era though goals against isn't an 'advanced' stat. Other Canucks dmen: 1.96 (Troy Stecher) 2.1 (Chris Tanev) 2.5 (Derrick Pouliot) 3.02 (Ben Hutton) On the penalty kill (4 on 5, 2018-19 only): 2.01 (Troy Stecher) 5.47 (Alex Edler) 6.26 (Ben Hutton) 7.94 (Erik Gudbranson) 8.36 (Chris Tanev) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tas Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, Duodenum said: Worst Goals against average per 60 minutes (Defensemen >800 minutes played) 2007-08 3.16 (Rob Blake/Paul Ranger) 2008-09 3.32 (Brendan Witt) 2009-10 3.29 (Steve Staios) 2010-11 3.35 (Filip Kuba) 2011-12 3.39 (Milan Jurcina) 2013 3.66 (Mark Giordano) 2013-14 3.35 (Dustin Byfuglien) 2014-15 3.32 (Jared Cowen) 2015-16 2.96 (Kris Russell) 2016-17 3.18 (Travis Hamonic) 2017-18 3.49 (Nick Leddy) 2018-19 4.04 (Erik Gudbranson) (2nd place 3.64 - Thomas Chabot) Going to be a record breaking season in the 'advanced stats' era though goals against isn't an 'advanced' stat. Other Canucks dmen: 1.96 (Troy Stecher) 2.1 (Chris Tanev) 2.5 (Derrick Pouliot) 3.02 (Ben Hutton) On the penalty kill (4 on 5, 2018-19 only): 2.01 (Troy Stecher) 5.47 (Alex Edler) 6.26 (Ben Hutton) 7.94 (Erik Gudbranson) 8.36 (Chris Tanev) does that list of defencemen tell you anything about the value of the stat being measured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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