TNucks1 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: Oh man, that makes me worried for how much Boeser and Pettersson will command its a good thing we waited too sign boeser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Fivehole0 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, 'NucK™ said: Boeser would seriously have to up his defensive game for Stone to be considered a comparable.. would be nice if he didn't shy away from contact too. What are you talking about? He's plus 6 on a minus team. Also, Boeser never shies from contact, especially in the corners. He's really strong on the puck on the wall. You don't have to lay open ice hits to be physical I swear just because someone gets in a slump in Vancouver all of a sudden they are terrible everywhere. Do you even watch the games? Edited March 9, 2019 by 5Fivehole0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'NucK™ Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said: What are you talking about? He's plus 6 on a minus team. Also, Boeser never shies from contact, especially in the corners. He's really strong on the puck on the wall. You don't have to lay open ice hits to be physical I swear just because someone gets in a slump in Vancouver all of a sudden they are terrible everywhere. Do you even watch the games? Strong on the puck when he has it maybe. I'm talking about fore-checking and retrieving pucks. And yes I watch the games and have lost count of how many times he has peeled off when he has had opportunities to disrupt a play or lay the body. I don't know how you can possibly argue that Stone's $76M contract could be used as a comparable next year for Brock. Edited March 9, 2019 by 'NucK™ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Glensky Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 2 hours ago, 'NucK™ said: Strong on the puck when he has it maybe. I'm talking about fore-checking and retrieving pucks. And yes I watch the games and have lost count of how many times he has peeled off when he has had opportunities to disrupt a play or lay the body. I don't know how you can possibly argue that Stone's $76M contract could be used as a comparable next year for Brock. Stones got a few more years on him. He’s proven he deserves the money but not 9.5. I figured 7.5 at the most. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 3 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said: What are you talking about? He's plus 6 on a minus team. Also, Boeser never shies from contact, especially in the corners. He's really strong on the puck on the wall. You don't have to lay open ice hits to be physical I swear just because someone gets in a slump in Vancouver all of a sudden they are terrible everywhere. Do you even watch the games? This is why +/- is a misleading stat. Boeser is in a completely sheltered offense role. We have signed the UFAs that we did to insulate players like Boeser, Goldobin, and even Pettersson from the rigors of defensive minutes. They provide most of the offense so they generate more opportunities for themselves to gain more pluses. On the other hand, guys like Beagle, Motte and Eriksson get the minuses facing the hard matchups and have very little opportunity in the offensive end of the ice because they aren't deployed in that way. To break it down a bit, Boeser has had 36 even strength point and is a +6, therefore he's has 30 even strength goals against while he was on the ice. Motte has 12 even strength points and is a -10, so he's been on the ice for 22 even strength goals. Considering the competition they face and their deployment, it's obvious that Motte is a better defensive player in this most simplest way of looking at it. So with that said, +/- to me is not a very clear indicator of defensive work. Stone however had been used as a PKer for Ottawa (played 1:20 a night on the PK), something that Boeser doesn't see at all. It's safe to say that Stone is a more trusted defensive player. Boeser may be strong on the puck, but he doesn't engage. He's no Sedin in terms of board work either. Stone provides the board work along with engaging physically in more of a power forward way. Stone had 51 hits in 59 games for Ottawa (11 more hits in 5 games with Vegas). Hits are a bit subjective depending on the hit counter as some minor bumps are considered hits, but Boeser has 12 in 55 games in comparison, so while Boeser may be strong on the puck, he's certainly not as physical as Stone. This is fine though as it's not Boeser's game, but it's an addition to Stone's game. Stone hasn't been able to play full season's lately, but neither has Boeser. Stone has better numbers of late and he had UFA years bought (I think maybe Stone got overpaid by about a million annually). If Boeser is confident in himself, he should sign a bridge deal (2-3 years for 5-5.5 million) or ensure he gets paid and take a longer term deal like a 6x6. IMO I think this is a reasonable offer for a currently RFA one dimensional scoring forward. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 4 hours ago, TNucks1 said: its a good thing we waited too sign boeser Benning was in talks with Boeser's agent last summer to try and sign him but ultimately Boeser decided to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'NucK™ Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, NeilColville said: Stones got a few more years on him. He’s proven he deserves the money but not 9.5. I figured 7.5 at the most. Well yeah I can't say it doesn't seem like an overpay. It's worth noting that he could have tested free agency though and probably have gotten the same. I think Vegas just knew that and decided they were willing to pay the price. Stone final year of his ELC (2014-2015): 26G-38A in 80GP. Got a $3.5M AAV for 3 years starting in 2015-16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 lol @ people in this thread thinking this is overpayment. Some people need to open their eyes and realize there are teams and players outside the Vancouver Canucks. Mark Stone is an elite winger than has no weakness to his game. Think Brock Boeser but better at literally everything except not as good of a shot. He's #1 on some GAR models for Christ sake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuxfanabroad Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Love Stone as a gem of a player..but if he tanked hard & turned into a Vegas-albatross, then all humanity should celebrate. Take it easy Stoner..take the $ & run. But 76 mill !..not bad work, if one can get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounoush Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 1 hour ago, kanucks25 said: lol @ people in this thread thinking this is overpayment. Some people need to open their eyes and realize there are teams and players outside the Vancouver Canucks. Mark Stone is an elite winger than has no weakness to his game. Think Brock Boeser but better at literally everything except not as good of a shot. He's #1 on some GAR models for Christ sake... Mark Stone is very good. He is not elite. Don't even make that argument. Playing in a new conference and team could also go a long way to hurting his game. I believe he doesn't even have a goal yet playing for Vegas. We shall see though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 12 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said: What are you talking about? He's plus 6 on a minus team. Also, Boeser never shies from contact, especially in the corners. He's really strong on the puck on the wall. You don't have to lay open ice hits to be physical I swear just because someone gets in a slump in Vancouver all of a sudden they are terrible everywhere. Do you even watch the games? He’s pretty good no doubt, but not close to what Stone does and has been doing for years now. The best comparable to Stone in the league is Wheeler, I’d take Wheeler over him any day at the same age, since he’s quietly been a mainstay in the leagues top ten in scoring and does many of the same things, he had to wait until last summer to get his payday. They make within a million of each other, and in four or five years this contract will look like a good deal compared to what GMs are handing out. The range being thrown around for what Stone could pull as this years most coveted forward free agent was 9-10, Vegas signed him right within it, they have the money and obviously aren’t going to wait to go for it after last year and how well MAF has played for them so far. It’s no coincidence that they’ve won what five in a row or something recently...they just put themselves into a dark horse contender entering the playoffs. CAL, SJ and Vegas are going to beat the crap out of each other on the way to the conference finals... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.B Cooper Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 15 hours ago, 6string said: Personally I hope Vegas falls flat on their face, why would I hope for cards to fall in their favour? They were obviously garbage Vegas/gambling jokes that clearly went way over your head. Haha 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokes Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I guess we are paying Pettersson 100million AAV when he's up then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Glensky Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 9 hours ago, kanucks25 said: lol @ people in this thread thinking this is overpayment. Some people need to open their eyes and realize there are teams and players outside the Vancouver Canucks. Mark Stone is an elite winger than has no weakness to his game. Think Brock Boeser but better at literally everything except not as good of a shot. He's #1 on some GAR models for Christ sake... What are you talking about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 16 hours ago, 5Fivehole0 said: What are you talking about? He's plus 6 on a minus team. Also, Boeser never shies from contact, especially in the corners. He's really strong on the puck on the wall. You don't have to lay open ice hits to be physical I swear just because someone gets in a slump in Vancouver all of a sudden they are terrible everywhere. Do you even watch the games? getting a little carried away I think The poster pointed out a truth imo - just because the GDTs around here are full of people whinging about Boeser (yes, that's annoying) doesn't mean this particular poster doesn't make a valid point - and said nothing about "all of a sudden terrible everywhere". Here are some things to consider: Stone has over 300 pts over the past 5 years, including 126 pts in his last 122 games. Stone's possession numbers are 53% corsi with 50.4% ozone starts. Stone has 5X the hits and 4X the blocked shots that Boeser does. Stone has 99 takeaways this year. He's been a Selke candidate for 4 consecutive seasons, and a 2x Byng candidate. Stone has averaged over a minute (1:19) of pk time/g and is a secondary pk option. Boeser is awesome - but let's look objectively at the comparables: Boeser has 106 pts in 126 career games. His ozone starts are 68.9%, his corsi is 51.6%. His defensive/grit numbers aren't close to comparable to Stone's. He's a sophomore NHLer who hasn't really earned that kind of cap and term. I don't doubt that Boeser could/will become a player who could command a contract like that - but there's something to be said for earning it. I think if he wante to sign longer term, he'd have to accept the objective outcomes - and context of play - and experience/production over time/ "proven factor" - that would limit him relative to a player like Stone. Too often imo the very fair and effective solution - known as a "bridge contract" is something that young players expect to bypass. I don't like that personally and I doubt that Boeser will expect to command Stone money already - just my opinion, but I'm attempting to base it in relatively objective outcomes - which I think also comes far more into play in real world negotiations than in perception-based opinions on these boards. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, theo5789 said: This is why +/- is a misleading stat. Boeser is in a completely sheltered offense role. We have signed the UFAs that we did to insulate players like Boeser, Goldobin, and even Pettersson from the rigors of defensive minutes. They provide most of the offense so they generate more opportunities for themselves to gain more pluses. On the other hand, guys like Beagle, Motte and Eriksson get the minuses facing the hard matchups and have very little opportunity in the offensive end of the ice because they aren't deployed in that way. To break it down a bit, Boeser has had 36 even strength point and is a +6, therefore he's has 30 even strength goals against while he was on the ice. Motte has 12 even strength points and is a -10, so he's been on the ice for 22 even strength goals. Considering the competition they face and their deployment, it's obvious that Motte is a better defensive player in this most simplest way of looking at it. So with that said, +/- to me is not a very clear indicator of defensive work. Stone however had been used as a PKer for Ottawa (played 1:20 a night on the PK), something that Boeser doesn't see at all. It's safe to say that Stone is a more trusted defensive player. Boeser may be strong on the puck, but he doesn't engage. He's no Sedin in terms of board work either. Stone provides the board work along with engaging physically in more of a power forward way. Stone had 51 hits in 59 games for Ottawa (11 more hits in 5 games with Vegas). Hits are a bit subjective depending on the hit counter as some minor bumps are considered hits, but Boeser has 12 in 55 games in comparison, so while Boeser may be strong on the puck, he's certainly not as physical as Stone. This is fine though as it's not Boeser's game, but it's an addition to Stone's game. Stone hasn't been able to play full season's lately, but neither has Boeser. Stone has better numbers of late and he had UFA years bought (I think maybe Stone got overpaid by about a million annually). If Boeser is confident in himself, he should sign a bridge deal (2-3 years for 5-5.5 million) or ensure he gets paid and take a longer term deal like a 6x6. IMO I think this is a reasonable offer for a currently RFA one dimensional scoring forward. Good points theo. People get carried away with plus/minus nonsense thinking it has any relation at all to defensive prowess, when out of context there is next to no correlation, period. For example - let's take a counterpoint - offensive specialist players like the Sedins, who were clearly deployed as exclusively as possible to feed on ozone starts, matchups (particularly when opponents had weaker lines trapped on the ice after icing calls, etc). The Sedins were +30 and +26 respectively in 2010/11. Is that an indication that they were outstanding two-way players with the defensive game to complement their scoring? No, not necessarily. They were at 68 and 70.9% ozone starts - their corsis were about 10 pts lower - and they were surrounded by a contending supporting cast - with a bottom six that did precisely what the present group is intended to do - that is handle all the hard minutes and provide the skilled forwards with the opportunites and context in which to be successful. So - Manny Malhotra deserves a whole lot of credit - those plusses belong to a significant extent to the players that ate the hard minutes for them - imo it would be fairer to 'share' those plusses (if it mattered) with the shutdown units, who eat misleading levels of minuses. Malhotra's role was similar to the Sutters and Beagles - he had routinely very low ozone starts (18.6% in his years in Vancouver and a mere -5 overall)......Malhotra's plus/minus should also be kept in the context of a very deep and highly effective bottom 6 forwards (guys like Higgins, Hansen, Lappy - on top of a top 6 that had a Selke candidate like Kesler - and a deep, solid blueline) - so people should not quite expect those all-around outstanding shutdown possession and goal metrics like Malhotra had out of the Beagles and Sutters of present day (although I'd argue they nevertheless produce very good shot and goal metrics in context) - and as you've pointed out, players like Motte have very clearly stronger defensive numbers than our skilled top 6 forwards. Gillis was no fool where "analytics" were concerned - and knew the value of bottom six shutdown players (there was outrage from some at the 3 million/year deal Malhotra got, from folks who production gaze and don't understand team-building) - and Benning likewise is no fool when it comes to the utility and importance of these kind of players - or the ways in which they complement particularly young forwards like Boeser, EP, etc - who owe their early successes to some extent to their bottom six team-mates who have been highly effective in providing them with opportunities to succeed and play the game - get deployed - to their strengths. Edited March 9, 2019 by oldnews 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) On 3/8/2019 at 2:10 PM, -AJ- said: Point-per-game player and excellent defensively. He got what he deserved. EDIT: In retrospect, it's a bit high. I would say he's worth about $8.75M. If he signed in Vancouver his salary would have to be 12 mill when taking taxes into consideration. This according to capgeek. Crazy. GMGM is inflating the market. Edited March 9, 2019 by WHL rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theo5789 Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, WHL rocks said: If he signed in Vancouver his salary would have to be 11 mill when taking taxes into consideration. Crazy. GMGM is inflating the market. Add in the fact that he got a full NMC for the duration of the contract as well, so he may have taken a "discount" for that as well. Stone is excellent, but not quite worth that much. Still better than the Nylander contract though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, theo5789 said: Add in the fact that he got a full NMC for the duration of the contract as well, so he may have taken a "discount" for that as well. Stone is excellent, but not quite worth that much. Still better than the Nylander contract though. Actually I made a typo. It's 12 mill in VAN compared to 9.5 mill in Vegas. We'd have to pay him 12 mill. This according to capgeek. He takes home 6mill with 9.5mill in Vegas. That's 1.2 mill more than he would take home in Vancouver. 12 mill in Vancouver let's him take home 6 mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butters Stoch Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Stones a great player but they're going to regret this deal about halfway through when he's out of his prime. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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