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(Signing)Mark Stone ext. 8 years AVV 9.5 mil


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20 hours ago, Rounoush said:

Mark Stone is very good. He is not elite. Don't even make that argument. Playing in a new conference and team could also go a long way to hurting his game. I believe he doesn't even have a goal yet playing for Vegas. We shall see though.

He's a point-per-game player who is one of the best defensively and has arguably the best advanced stats amongst all forwards.

 

I mean unless your list of "elite" is only 5 players long, Mark Stone is definitely elite.

 

There are only 13 wingers that have more points than him and just 3 are on his level defensively (Marchand, Marner, Wheeler).

 

1st in CF% Rel

1st in SCF% Rel

9th in GF% Rel

 

I'm assuming you've actually never watched him play. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Vegas seems to be having a window.  They are paying later for keeping the window open now.

 

if they win a cup or 2 in the next 5 years but then suck for 5 after that (stone’s performance probably mirrors that) then don’t you think that is a good price to pay?

 

to win a cup you have to pay a price.  You can’t just be competitive forever you have to hit some highs and then take the lows.  You have to trade picks for players at some point.

 

The canucks:  we are starting a window soon. Key is to make the playoffs and do something there.  Then FA will be attracted - especially to a young core that can make them look good.  But you have to be smart and draft well and get lucky - so most of your team isn’t a result of FA... cause then you don’t have the coin to land the big fish and pay your core at the same time.  That means home grown relatively cheap bottom 6 players / 3rd pairing.  Basically if the Canucks overpay again on bottom 6 forwards again this year it means the management doesn’t know what they are doing.  Even last year was a stretch but the contracts are relatively short but there will still be a crunch because of them.  Build at least your bottom 6 from within or you don’t have a chance

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 12:18 PM, Duodenum said:

 

Eugene Melnyk says that Stone was too old for a long term extension.

 

He's 26 years old. 

 

:picard:

Well, in fairness to Ottawa, they're going to suck for another 2-3 years. They probably won't be truly competitive until the back-half of Stone's contract, when there will likely be diminishing returns. And at that point, they will need to extend all of their young guys, and his contract may be a major burden.

 

IMO, they made the right play by trading him, even if he was willing to take the same 8-year deal from them.

 

That said, if Canucks have a chance at Karlsson, I say go for it.

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1 hour ago, canucksnihilist said:

That means home grown relatively cheap bottom 6 players / 3rd pairing.  Basically if the Canucks overpay again on bottom 6 forwards again this year it means the management doesn’t know what they are doing.  Even last year was a stretch but the contracts are relatively short but there will still be a crunch because of them.  Build at least your bottom 6 from within or you don’t have a chance

Our 'overpaid' bottom 6 players will all be traded or expiring before we have to remotely worry about cap concerns. So no, there won't be a crunch.

 

And I think you entirely misread the team's plans this summer if you think they're targeting bottom 6/pair players (though I could see us possibly signing a depth D, it won't remotely be their primary target).

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21 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Our 'overpaid' bottom 6 players will all be traded or expiring before we have to remotely worry about cap concerns. So no, there won't be a crunch.

 

And I think you entirely misread the team's plans this summer if you think they're targeting bottom 6/pair players (though I could see us possibly signing a depth D, it won't remotely be their primary target).

im not that worried about their current contracts - if you say they won’t interfere then that is good news

 

Just saying this summer is a watershed moment / time period.  The management changed focus and targets big name FAs - as they have said.  Or... when they fail to land those big name FAs they pick up a bunch of bottom 6 anyways... which I think could actually happen.   We will see.  

 

Do they have the discipline to not buy something that could help the team short term - but will screw things up long term?   Aka:  if there really is a plan they won’t buy any more bottom 6 FA.  If there isn’t a plan to really win a cup they will get those middle of the road FAs so the team can make the playoffs and be competitive but really never win a cup or ever come close.

 

We will see this summer!  Hope they have some discipline at the candy store....

 

.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

im not that worried about their current contracts - if you say they won’t interfere then that is good news

 

Just saying this summer is a watershed moment / time period.  The management changed focus and targets big name FAs - as they have said.  Or... when they fail to land those big name FAs they pick up a bunch of bottom 6 anyways... which I think could actually happen.   We will see.  

 

Do they have the discipline to not buy something that could help the team short term - but will screw things up long term?   Aka:  if there really is a plan they won’t buy any more bottom 6 FA.  If there isn’t a plan to really win a cup they will get those middle of the road FAs so the team can make the playoffs and be competitive but really never win a cup or ever come close.

 

We will see this summer!  Hope they have some discipline at the candy store....

 

.

 

 

Why? Based on what?

 

The team has plenty of supportive middle/bottom 6 depth because of our drafting/trading/signings etc and the team's focus is clearly on the D and to try to strengthen our top 6 W's.

 

Why do you think they'd be out to sign more of what we already have an abundance of? :blink:

 

By all means, I doubt we're targeting big fish like Karlsson or Panarin (likely a good things long term) but I'd imagine with question marks around Baer's health (and Goldobin looking unfortunately like a lost cause) they'll look at a solid 2nd line W'er like Dzingel to help round out our top 6. (We'll likely be filling another top 6 W spot via draft in the next couple years.)

 

Besides that I think they'll likely look at a secondary D like Stralman (maybe Myers but I think he ends up too pricey in cap and term). And then look to deal a package of some of Hutton/goalie/Sutter (possible retention on Sutter), plus some other assets (middle 6 F, B prospects etc) for a D (probably right side). And then look to move Tanev at some point this summer/next year.

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1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Why? Based on what?

 

The team has plenty of supportive middle/bottom 6 depth because of our drafting/trading/signings etc and the team's focus is clearly on the D and to try to strengthen our top 6 W's.

 

Why do you think they'd be out to sign more of what we already have an abundance of? :blink:

 

By all means, I doubt we're targeting big fish like Karlsson or Panarin (likely a good things long term) but I'd imagine with question marks around Baer's health (and Goldobin looking unfortunately like a lost cause) they'll look at a solid 2nd line W'er like Dzingel to help round out our top 6. (We'll likely be filling another top 6 W spot via draft in the next couple years.)

 

Besides that I think they'll likely look at a secondary D like Stralman (maybe Myers but I think he ends up too pricey in cap and term). And then look to deal a package of some of Hutton/goalie/Sutter (possible retention on Sutter), plus some other assets (middle 6 F, B prospects etc) for a D (probably right side). And then look to move Tanev at some point this summer/next year.

Should we bother with middling UFAs? They will be just as overpriced (overvalued) as the top end guys but with far more risk of not panning out to the expectations. Dzingel is having a career year (with 52 points in 71 games so far), but he's 27 and doesn't have a whole lot of history of consistency. He might be looking for a 6x6 type deal. If he's willing to take 4 million a season, then I'll consider it, but that seems unlikely. He certainly won't make a big enough difference for me (not a huge upgrade on what we have) to have him plug up another forward spot and it's unlikely he signs a short term deal.

 

Panarin and EK are going to be pricey, but they will bring their games. They will change a team. I rather target the big fish and forget about the middling guys. If the big fish don't want to sign here, then we just continue on our path without an accelerated UFA boost.

 

I can understand the value of someone like Stralman to go with our young guys and he probably won't get a long enough deal to worry about him long term. Myers IMO is another middling guy that I wouldn't be bothered with unless he signs a bargain deal. Ferland is another guy that I can understand why we would be interested in, so if his price isn't outrageous, then I'd consider him.

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On 3/22/2019 at 11:18 AM, Duodenum said:

 

Eugene Melnyk says that Stone was too old for a long term extension.

 

He's 26 years old. 

 

:picard:

That's because they don't want to deal with trading a big contract of a player over 30 to anyone. They're not so easy to lose, should you have to lose them. What he should have said is "We weren't willing to offer up that kind of term for someone who would be in their mid 30s when the contract expires."

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4 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Should we bother with middling UFAs? They will be just as overpriced (overvalued) as the top end guys but with far more risk of not panning out to the expectations. Dzingel is having a career year (with 52 points in 71 games so far), but he's 27 and doesn't have a whole lot of history of consistency. He might be looking for a 6x6 type deal. If he's willing to take 4 million a season, then I'll consider it, but that seems unlikely. He certainly won't make a big enough difference for me (not a huge upgrade on what we have) to have him plug up another forward spot and it's unlikely he signs a short term deal.

 

Panarin and EK are going to be pricey, but they will bring their games. They will change a team. I rather target the big fish and forget about the middling guys. If the big fish don't want to sign here, then we just continue on our path without an accelerated UFA boost.

 

I can understand the value of someone like Stralman to go with our young guys and he probably won't get a long enough deal to worry about him long term. Myers IMO is another middling guy that I wouldn't be bothered with unless he signs a bargain deal. Ferland is another guy that I can understand why we would be interested in, so if his price isn't outrageous, then I'd consider him.

I don't view Dzingel as middling (anymore than Ferland or similar). Dzingel is a solid 2nd line W'er with 32, 41 and presently 52 point seasons under his belt the last three years (as well as excellent skating). Seems like a pretty steady progression 'history'.

 

IMO, he'd be an eventual replacement for Baer (who I don't see us keeping past his current extension with the health concerns, if not moving sooner) and until then he'd hold the fort until draftee's arrive (come on lotto and Kakko!) and give us another legit top 6 (2nd line) capable winger we desperately need. And IMO, at 0.5+ PPG, he's in fact a pretty decent upgrade from the Goldobins, Leivos and broken Baers we're currently relying on.

 

But again, I'm not wed to Dzingel, by all means kick tires on other solid, 2nd line level W'ers but guys like Ferland, Lee etc are just as (if not more) likely to be overpaid and 'middling' (by your definition). (And I doubt Lee leaves long Island.)

 

Panarin and EK are pipe dreams IMO. By all means we should kick tires but I doubt either are realistic possibilities. Which is probably a good thing as our top players are probably best coming from the draft primarily and if not, via trade.

 

Generally agree on Myers. Likely to be too much cap and term for what he is. I prefer my noted draft and trade route with a solid add like Stralman (to largely replace moving out Tanev at some point this year) and packaging some of our other excess pieces for the needed young D.

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1 hour ago, Noseforthenet said:

That's because they don't want to deal with trading a big contract of a player over 30 to anyone. They're not so easy to lose, should you have to lose them. What he should have said is "We weren't willing to offer up that kind of term for someone who would be in their mid 30s when the contract expires."

Don't know how much better that comment would've been. A simple thanks for his service and a belief that the assets the trade provided would help in their rebuild would've been suffice. 

 

4 hours ago, D-Money said:

Well, in fairness to Ottawa, they're going to suck for another 2-3 years. They probably won't be truly competitive until the back-half of Stone's contract, when there will likely be diminishing returns. And at that point, they will need to extend all of their young guys, and his contract may be a major burden.

 

IMO, they made the right play by trading him, even if he was willing to take the same 8-year deal from them.

 

That said, if Canucks have a chance at Karlsson, I say go for it.

Maybe they made the right play. Was a bonehead comment though about him being too old. 

 

5 hours ago, RonMexico said:

That would to be too old for many Canucks fans too.

Don't think many here would think twice of giving Pettersson an 8 year contract if he was a pending UFA at 26. 

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28 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I don't view Dzingel as middling (anymore than Ferland or similar). Dzingel is a solid 2nd line W'er with 32, 41 and presently 52 point seasons under his belt the last three years (as well as excellent skating). Seems like a pretty steady progression 'history'.

 

IMO, he'd be an eventual replacement for Baer (who I don't see us keeping past his current extension with the health concerns, if not moving sooner) and until then he'd hold the fort until draftee's arrive (come on lotto and Kakko!) and give us another legit top 6 (2nd line) capable winger we desperately need. And IMO, at 0.5+ PPG, he's in fact a pretty decent upgrade from the Goldobins, Leivos and broken Baers we're currently relying on.

 

But again, I'm not wed to Dzingel, by all means kick tires on other solid, 2nd line level W'ers but guys like Ferland, Lee etc are just as (if not more) likely to be overpaid and 'middling' (by your definition). (And I doubt Lee leaves long Island.)

 

Panarin and EK are pipe dreams IMO. By all means we should kick tires but I doubt either are realistic possibilities. Which is probably a good thing as our top players are probably best coming from the draft primarily and if not, via trade.

 

Generally agree on Myers. Likely to be too much cap and term for what he is. I prefer my noted draft and trade route with a solid add like Stralman (to largely replace moving out Tanev at some point this year) and packaging some of our other excess pieces for the needed young D.

Only reason Ferland is of more interest to me is simply because he provides an element to our top 6 that we are lacking. I don't think Lee will be available either which is why I'm not even looking at him.

 

There are certainly positives to Dzingel's game that is intriguing, but he will likely be overpaid for what he provides. As a 2nd liner type, we already have too many as it is. Baertschi if he can stay healthy is a 2nd liner. Leivo while not having the numbers looks to fit into a 2nd liner role (at least he provides some physicality and his skill set seems better than his points would indicate). Pearson has been and currently in around his 40-45 point pace. Goldobin doesn't seem like he will get to the 2nd liner role unfortunately. So with that said, I'm comfortable going into next season with Baertschi, Leivo and Pearson taking up the top 3 LW spots and Dzingel may be out de facto 1st line LW, but he's not a major upgrade to that group. Keep in mind we also have Spooner who is also capable of getting into that 40-45 point range. There's also a possibility next season that we will have a center's crunch which may push one out to a wing spot.

 

I agree that Panarin and EK are likely not to sign here, but they are the type of guys that will be worth their contracts despite the high price because there is a trickle down effect for what they provide and knowing they will be your top guys. Back to Dzingel, assuming he's looking for term and dollars (eg 6x6), it's no sure thing that he could even hold onto that top LW spot on our team, so for his potential price, it's not enough of an improvement to what we have is the point I'm trying to make. And this like you've mentioned about Myers is the reason why I would avoid the "middling" guys.

 

Just realized, I almost completely forgot about Roussel as well, which just furthers that I'm fine heading into next season without a "top 6" winger signing unless it's a team changing one.

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5 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Only reason Ferland is of more interest to me is simply because he provides an element to our top 6 that we are lacking. I don't think Lee will be available either which is why I'm not even looking at him.

 

There are certainly positives to Dzingel's game that is intriguing, but he will likely be overpaid for what he provides. As a 2nd liner type, we already have too many as it is. Baertschi if he can stay healthy is a 2nd liner. Leivo while not having the numbers looks to fit into a 2nd liner role (at least he provides some physicality and his skill set seems better than his points would indicate). Pearson has been and currently in around his 40-45 point pace. Goldobin doesn't seem like he will get to the 2nd liner role unfortunately. So with that said, I'm comfortable going into next season with Baertschi, Leivo and Pearson taking up the top 3 LW spots and Dzingel may be out de facto 1st line LW, but he's not a major upgrade to that group. Keep in mind we also have Spooner who is also capable of getting into that 40-45 point range. There's also a possibility next season that we will have a center's crunch which may push one out to a wing spot.

 

I agree that Panarin and EK are likely not to sign here, but they are the type of guys that will be worth their contracts despite the high price because there is a trickle down effect for what they provide and knowing they will be your top guys. Back to Dzingel, assuming he's looking for term and dollars (eg 6x6), it's no sure thing that he could even hold onto that top LW spot on our team, so for his potential price, it's not enough of an improvement to what we have is the point I'm trying to make. And this like you've mentioned about Myers is the reason why I would avoid the "middling" guys.

 

Just realized, I almost completely forgot about Roussel as well, which just furthers that I'm fine heading into next season without a "top 6" winger signing unless it's a team changing one.

Ferland certainly has  the perception of providing that element. How regularly and for how long given his own health concerns are pretty big red flags IMO.

 

We have literally two 2nd liner types (including Pearson)... and a frequently broken Baer.  And 2 1st liners in Pettersson/Boeser. Again, Not saying Dzingel is more than a 2nd liner but we need more capable top 6 bodies until draft picks/kids are ready to replace (and improve upon) them. I love the Leivo trade but he should be playing 3rd line/2nd line fill in and a Dzingel or similar would be a pretty clear upgrade any way you slice it. And again, long term, I'd see him replacing Baer on the 2nd line as kids take over the 1LW role (and we move on from Baer).

 

Roussel (love him to pieces), or any of our abundance of bottom 6 depth, is not a reason to to not upgrade the top 6 IMO.

 

I'd happily start next year with a vastly improved top 6, something like:

 

Dzingel/Baer, Pettersson, Boeser

Baer/Dzingel, Horvat Pearson

Leivo, Gaudette, Virtanen

Roussel, Beagle, Sutter

 

Motte

 

That's a FAR more threatening top 6 IMO (while not mistaking it for a contending top 6) with solid bottom 6 guys who can move up for stints in the top 6 with injuries. As prospects become ready, you trade out Baer and Sutter to make space. Eventually sliding Dzingel down to 2LW as a kid takes over 1LW. Then phase out Pearson/Leivo as kids replace them in a couple years.

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15 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Back to Dzingel, assuming he's looking for term and dollars (eg 6x6), it's no sure thing that he could even hold onto that top LW spot on our team, so for his potential price, it's not enough of an improvement to what we have is the point I'm trying to make.

Although I agree with the spirit of your post (not overpaying on middling players), I could help but get a kick out of the potential contract you suggested for Dzingel.

 

He won't get 6x6. Tavares was the only UFA last July to get over 5 years. I would be shocked if he got over 5x5 (money or term).

 

But yeah, even at less than that, I would pass. He's not enough of an upgrade to spend that kind of money on.

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3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Why? Based on what?

 

The team has plenty of supportive middle/bottom 6 depth because of our drafting/trading/signings etc and the team's focus is clearly on the D and to try to strengthen our top 6 W's.

 

Why do you think they'd be out to sign more of what we already have an abundance of? :blink:

 

By all means, I doubt we're targeting big fish like Karlsson or Panarin (likely a good things long term) but I'd imagine with question marks around Baer's health (and Goldobin looking unfortunately like a lost cause) they'll look at a solid 2nd line W'er like Dzingel to help round out our top 6. (We'll likely be filling another top 6 W spot via draft in the next couple years.)

 

Besides that I think they'll likely look at a secondary D like Stralman (maybe Myers but I think he ends up too pricey in cap and term). And then look to deal a package of some of Hutton/goalie/Sutter (possible retention on Sutter), plus some other assets (middle 6 F, B prospects etc) for a D (probably right side). And then look to move Tanev at some point this summer/next year.

Based on every summer since JB got hired.   The management can’t resist the candy.  It would be nice to see a change:

 

1 get the top end FA you want

2. Or settle with saving your money to spend somewhere else

 

They will go after Ferland or some other middle type guy.   Who has the same stats as Jake Virtanen btw...  can’t you see that happening?   Especially if they don’t catch a big fish - gotta sell tickets!

 

It is the:  forever getting your support players better and more expensive kind of fail.  Then you can’t afford a top FA for a cup window.

 

i hope it doesn’t happen - just saying I won’t be surprised if it does...

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17 minutes ago, canucksnihilist said:

Based on every summer since JB got hired.   The management can’t resist the candy.  It would be nice to see a change:

 

1 get the top end FA you want

2. Or settle with saving your money to spend somewhere else

 

They will go after Ferland or some other middle type guy.   Who has the same stats as Jake Virtanen btw...  can’t you see that happening?   Especially if they don’t catch a big fish - gotta sell tickets!

 

It is the:  forever getting your support players better and more expensive kind of fail.  Then you can’t afford a top FA for a cup window.

 

i hope it doesn’t happen - just saying I won’t be surprised if it does...

I think you entirely misread the situation we were or are currently in. 

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1 hour ago, D-Money said:

Although I agree with the spirit of your post (not overpaying on middling players), I could help but get a kick out of the potential contract you suggested for Dzingel.

 

He won't get 6x6. Tavares was the only UFA last July to get over 5 years. I would be shocked if he got over 5x5 (money or term).

 

But yeah, even at less than that, I would pass. He's not enough of an upgrade to spend that kind of money on.

Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised to see him or guys like him get that kind of deal.

 

As for the bolded, I'm not sure how a 0.5PPG + player with speed isn't an upgrade on the likes of Goldobin and Leivo in our top 6 (or an eventual replacement for a fragile Baer).

 

Any 1LW we get is likely going to come from draft or trade, not free agency.

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1 hour ago, D-Money said:

Although I agree with the spirit of your post (not overpaying on middling players), I could help but get a kick out of the potential contract you suggested for Dzingel.

 

He won't get 6x6. Tavares was the only UFA last July to get over 5 years. I would be shocked if he got over 5x5 (money or term).

 

But yeah, even at less than that, I would pass. He's not enough of an upgrade to spend that kind of money on.

Perhaps 6x6 is overboard, but he's going to try to cash in at his stage in his career, so it's whoever is going to pay him the most for as long as possible. Dzingel just isn't a player I feel is worth whatever that may be. Maybe he can be signed for a 4x4 type deal, but then he will probably look at going to a contender instead.

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