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@Ray_Cathode 

 

no one is saying he's bad, just needs more experience. I think maybe its that he didn't see much PK time? 

 

this seems to be a fair assessment of him:

 

One of the things that could hold Rafferty back is his inability to kill penalties. He was rarely on the ice last season when the Comets were shorthanded and that could be a reason why the Canucks choose to go with Juolevi over Rafferty out of camp. Juolevi was the Comets’ best penalty killer last season and if he’s able to do it at the NHL level, the Canucks can then keep Nate Schmidt off the penalty kill and throw out the pairing of Quinn Hughes and Schmidt as a quick response pairing after each kill.

Rafferty is not undersized, coming in at 6’2″ and just shy of 200 pounds, he is big enough to use his strength as an advantage when it comes to defending. Back when we talked in May, he was confident in his defensive game and believes the only reason people bring it up as a negative is because there’s nothing in his offensive game to criticize.

“So, I think part of the reason why some people may look at my defensive game as a liability is because there’s really no room for that argument on the offensive side of my game this year. They don’t have an argument for the offensive side so they try to find something on the defensive side that they don’t like. I think I’m a well-rounded defenceman and I take pride in my defensive game. I continue to work on it every year and I think every season that goes by I’ve adjusted, watched video, asked the coaching staff and other players what I need to do to get better on the defensive side of the puck. Every year I see progression so I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.”

He is going to need to keep seeing progression and take his defensive game to another level if he wants to be a mainstay in the Canucks’ lineup. His offensive ability would fit nicely with Jordie Benn’s defensive-minded game on a third pairing or if Juolevi and Rafferty come into camp and impress the Canucks brass, they could potentially hold the third pairing down as a duo. Unfortunately, Juolevi and Rafferty did not play together a lot in Utica, so they were very rarely on the ice together and didn’t get a chance to build much chemistry.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/11/15/brogan-rafferty-most-nhl-ready-defenceman-vancouver-canucks-prospect-pool/

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10 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

@Ray_Cathode 

 

no one is saying he's bad, just needs more experience. I think maybe its that he didn't see much PK time? 

 

this seems to be a fair assessment of him:

 

One of the things that could hold Rafferty back is his inability to kill penalties. He was rarely on the ice last season when the Comets were shorthanded and that could be a reason why the Canucks choose to go with Juolevi over Rafferty out of camp. Juolevi was the Comets’ best penalty killer last season and if he’s able to do it at the NHL level, the Canucks can then keep Nate Schmidt off the penalty kill and throw out the pairing of Quinn Hughes and Schmidt as a quick response pairing after each kill.

Rafferty is not undersized, coming in at 6’2″ and just shy of 200 pounds, he is big enough to use his strength as an advantage when it comes to defending. Back when we talked in May, he was confident in his defensive game and believes the only reason people bring it up as a negative is because there’s nothing in his offensive game to criticize.

“So, I think part of the reason why some people may look at my defensive game as a liability is because there’s really no room for that argument on the offensive side of my game this year. They don’t have an argument for the offensive side so they try to find something on the defensive side that they don’t like. I think I’m a well-rounded defenceman and I take pride in my defensive game. I continue to work on it every year and I think every season that goes by I’ve adjusted, watched video, asked the coaching staff and other players what I need to do to get better on the defensive side of the puck. Every year I see progression so I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.”

He is going to need to keep seeing progression and take his defensive game to another level if he wants to be a mainstay in the Canucks’ lineup. His offensive ability would fit nicely with Jordie Benn’s defensive-minded game on a third pairing or if Juolevi and Rafferty come into camp and impress the Canucks brass, they could potentially hold the third pairing down as a duo. Unfortunately, Juolevi and Rafferty did not play together a lot in Utica, so they were very rarely on the ice together and didn’t get a chance to build much chemistry.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/11/15/brogan-rafferty-most-nhl-ready-defenceman-vancouver-canucks-prospect-pool/

This is from the article you quoted: “

There’s a lot to like about Rafferty’s game. He is an incredible puck mover who can break the forecheck with his puck carrying ability or his outlet passes. He can run a power play unit and has a good enough shot to do damage on his own.

The questions surrounding Rafferty are all about his defending. He looked strong in the AHL but the NHL is a different animal. That being said, he made the least amount of clear defensive mistakes out of the Utica Comets defencemen last season. I remember looking back at film for my deep dive on Rafferty back in May and it took a handful of games for me to even find one big mistake in his own end. With other Comets defencemen like Jalen Chatfield and Olli Juolevi, it was almost a nightly occurrence.”

 

Aftera summer without games, when Rafferty started in Utica, he struggled at first till he found his game. He had a long time off before the NHL playoff bubble - in fairness to Chatfield and Juolevi, they found their games quickly - in the short prep time for the bubble playoff, that put them ahead of him in that situation. This is not uncommon for many existing NHL players to start slowly after a layoff. But when all of them are up to speed, there is no comparison with their games. I wish I still had my recordings of Rafferty’s two NHL games that he played after the completion of his college season and subsequent signing with Vancouver. Rafferty got better with each shift, in the third period he was paired with Hughes and it was magical, they pretty much spent their entire shifts in the offensive zone and had the defending team chasing the play for entire shifts. And it was not just Hughes, Rafferty was reading and reacting to Hughes’s game. Rafferty also made a superb defensive play in the third period. Yes, it was only two games of about 10-12 minutes each. But that is more than we have seen of either of Chatfield or Juolevi in the NHL.

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9 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

@Ray_Cathode 

 

no one is saying he's bad, just needs more experience. I think maybe its that he didn't see much PK time? 

 

this seems to be a fair assessment of him:

 

One of the things that could hold Rafferty back is his inability to kill penalties. He was rarely on the ice last season when the Comets were shorthanded and that could be a reason why the Canucks choose to go with Juolevi over Rafferty out of camp. Juolevi was the Comets’ best penalty killer last season and if he’s able to do it at the NHL level, the Canucks can then keep Nate Schmidt off the penalty kill and throw out the pairing of Quinn Hughes and Schmidt as a quick response pairing after each kill.

Rafferty is not undersized, coming in at 6’2″ and just shy of 200 pounds, he is big enough to use his strength as an advantage when it comes to defending. Back when we talked in May, he was confident in his defensive game and believes the only reason people bring it up as a negative is because there’s nothing in his offensive game to criticize.

“So, I think part of the reason why some people may look at my defensive game as a liability is because there’s really no room for that argument on the offensive side of my game this year. They don’t have an argument for the offensive side so they try to find something on the defensive side that they don’t like. I think I’m a well-rounded defenceman and I take pride in my defensive game. I continue to work on it every year and I think every season that goes by I’ve adjusted, watched video, asked the coaching staff and other players what I need to do to get better on the defensive side of the puck. Every year I see progression so I’m going to keep doing what I’m doing.”

He is going to need to keep seeing progression and take his defensive game to another level if he wants to be a mainstay in the Canucks’ lineup. His offensive ability would fit nicely with Jordie Benn’s defensive-minded game on a third pairing or if Juolevi and Rafferty come into camp and impress the Canucks brass, they could potentially hold the third pairing down as a duo. Unfortunately, Juolevi and Rafferty did not play together a lot in Utica, so they were very rarely on the ice together and didn’t get a chance to build much chemistry.

 

https://canucksarmy.com/2020/11/15/brogan-rafferty-most-nhl-ready-defenceman-vancouver-canucks-prospect-pool/

There is no evidence that Rafferty can’t kill penalties, that is total speculation. He didn’t in the first two thirds of the season in order to balance the ice time - he was on the first unit pp, and the Canucks wanted to groom Juolevi in that role.  In the last third of the season, he did kill penalties and run the pp. As it says in te article you quoted, he was their most error free defenseman by miles.

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14 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

There is no evidence that Rafferty can’t kill penalties, that is total speculation. He didn’t in the first two thirds of the season in order to balance the ice time - he was on the first unit pp, and the Canucks wanted to groom Juolevi in that role.  In the last third of the season, he did kill penalties and run the pp. As it says in te article you quoted, he was their most error free defenseman by miles.

well, I think the evidence is that Cull didn't use him that way maybe? 

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43 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

well, I think the evidence is that Cull didn't use him that way maybe? 

Tbh, I don't think there's really much relation between his PK utilization and his defensive abilities, and to use that as evidence is a bit weak. We have a lot of defensive-minded D's in the system that need ice time as well, Rafferty's the best option for Utica's PP, and I don't think Cull would want to give 30 mins/game to one player in a development league. 

 

I just think it's a stereotype that D-men who can create offense like him are more prone to errors on the defensive side of their games. That said, we need to see a decent sample size of NHL games to really see where he's at. 

Edited by Chickenspear
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3 hours ago, Chickenspear said:

Tbh, I don't think there's really much relation between his PK utilization and his defensive abilities, and to use that as evidence is a bit weak. We have a lot of defensive-minded D's in the system that need ice time as well, Rafferty's the best option for Utica's PP, and I don't think Cull would want to give 30 mins/game to one player in a development league. 

 

I just think it's a stereotype that D-men who can create offense like him are more prone to errors on the defensive side of their games. That said, we need to see a decent sample size of NHL games to really see where he's at. 

how is it weak? all it means is he doesn't have much experience on the PK at the AHL level, which means you don't want to throw him in to the fire up here to learn it. Its not a criticism, just the facts of his experience so far. 

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20 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

well, I think the evidence is that Cull didn't use him that way maybe? 

Okay, what is Cull’s job? Develop prospects according to the Canucks needs and the prospect’s deficiencies. If Rafferty is killing penalties, Chatfield , Brisebois, Tenev, Sautner, and Juolevi are not. Rafferty, if you credit his error free performance in the article that you quoted (remember, error free by a large margin)! How does it serve the interests of the Canucks player development to play Rafferty in a pk role? Juolevi also shows offensive abilities, but in his first year of play was a defensive disaster. Part or much of that may have been health (remember his being recalled to Vancouver part way through last season for medical purposes) his play improved greatly after that, no longer being walked on the outside due to his weakness on his pivot. It is pretty clear that the Canucks are grooming him to play a role similar to the young Edler. Late in the season, while jockeying for a playoff position, Rafferty was used on penalty kills. It was important for player development to get the young guys well positioned to achieve success in the AHL playoffs. 
 

A look at the development of MacEwen and Lind also reflects this among forwards, and with Sautner, Chatfield, and Brisebois among defenders, The big initial deficiency of these players was defensive - so give them experience in defensive roles. Teves, after his college development, was well prepared defensively and stood out in that role in the first part of the season. He ran up a massive +/- right up until his injury - afterwards he was just not the same player. Jasek, by comparison came in as a relatively complete player from his experience in his European men’s league. A big gap in the Canuck’s prospect depth at that time was at centre. It served the Canucks to repurpose this fine skating, intelligent player to meet organizational needs as a pivot. Of course, this also benefits Jasek, now he can fill any forward need on the Canucks except strength combined with skill - which is what MacEwen, Bailey and Glaovac bring. You may recall that Glaovac impressed with the Canucks (2 goals in 8 games on the fourth line while dominating physically as a 6’5” centre) until his pretty much season ending injury.

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2 hours ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Okay, what is Cull’s job? Develop prospects according to the Canucks needs and the prospect’s deficiencies. If Rafferty is killing penalties, Chatfield , Brisebois, Tenev, Sautner, and Juolevi are not. Rafferty, if you credit his error free performance in the article that you quoted (remember, error free by a large margin)! How does it serve the interests of the Canucks player development to play Rafferty in a pk role? Juolevi also shows offensive abilities, but in his first year of play was a defensive disaster. Part or much of that may have been health (remember his being recalled to Vancouver part way through last season for medical purposes) his play improved greatly after that, no longer being walked on the outside due to his weakness on his pivot. It is pretty clear that the Canucks are grooming him to play a role similar to the young Edler. Late in the season, while jockeying for a playoff position, Rafferty was used on penalty kills. It was important for player development to get the young guys well positioned to achieve success in the AHL playoffs. 
 

A look at the development of MacEwen and Lind also reflects this among forwards, and with Sautner, Chatfield, and Brisebois among defenders, The big initial deficiency of these players was defensive - so give them experience in defensive roles. Teves, after his college development, was well prepared defensively and stood out in that role in the first part of the season. He ran up a massive +/- right up until his injury - afterwards he was just not the same player. Jasek, by comparison came in as a relatively complete player from his experience in his European men’s league. A big gap in the Canuck’s prospect depth at that time was at centre. It served the Canucks to repurpose this fine skating, intelligent player to meet organizational needs as a pivot. Of course, this also benefits Jasek, now he can fill any forward need on the Canucks except strength combined with skill - which is what MacEwen, Bailey and Glaovac bring. You may recall that Glaovac impressed with the Canucks (2 goals in 8 games on the fourth line while dominating physically as a 6’5” centre) until his pretty much season ending injury.

I doubt he thinks too much about the big club's needs, I think he's more focused on the individual tbh. 

 

I'm excited for what Rafferty can potentially bring offensively for sure, but we can't say what he's going to be without the puck yet so I'm not ready to pencil him into the.the #6 spot when its still a big question mark. Not saying he can't be good, but we don't know that he will be either. Sure the error free part is great but thats just part of the picture as well. 

 

I just think its a good idea to tone it down about him a bit until we see more of what he can do without the puck. 

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7 hours ago, D-Money said:

It’s better than what we just faced them with.

Rafferty hasn't even played a game in the NHL, Juolevi has played one.  How can you make that statement when you haven't even seen an outcome?

 

I like the acquisition of Schmidt, he brings more to the table than Tanev.  But we need some more beef on the backend if we are to compete with Vegas and the other teams.  We need a more rugged stay at home Dman to compliment Hughes and we need the big Russian as well.  Hopefully Tryamkin can play with us this year and I'm looking forward to seeing what Benning is going to do to land us that partner for Quinn.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I doubt he thinks too much about the big club's needs, I think he's more focused on the individual tbh. 

 

I'm excited for what Rafferty can potentially bring offensively for sure, but we can't say what he's going to be without the puck yet so I'm not ready to pencil him into the.the #6 spot when its still a big question mark. Not saying he can't be good, but we don't know that he will be either. Sure the error free part is great but thats just part of the picture as well. 

 

I just think its a good idea to tone it down about him a bit until we see more of what he can do without the puck. 

Who is Cull’s employer? Who is Cull working for? Who signs his cheque? 
 

But I do agree that we will have to see what Rafferty brings in the NHL, but his defensive game, I believe, has been criticized unjustly. With the exception of Hughes, it has been a long time since Vancouver brought in a dynamic, young defensive prospect - a potential play driver. I don’t see that in Juolevi - at best, I see a good number three. But amazingly, we have yet another kid coming up in the immediate future, who could also be exceptional in Rathbone. The last time the team had a really dynamic, play driving defence, it was this bunch: Ehrhoff, Edler, Hamhuis, Salo, Bieksa, Ballard, Tanev, and Rome. That team did rather well. The next year, with Ehrhoff defected, both Edler and Bieksa had over 40 points, Hamhuis had 37, and Sal had 25 in 59 games. With Hughes and Schmidt at its core and these young guys coming up, I’m hoping for that kind of push again from the back. Hell, at least I can hope.

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7 minutes ago, Ray_Cathode said:

Who is Cull’s employer? Who is Cull working for? Who signs his cheque? 
 

But I do agree that we will have to see what Rafferty brings in the NHL, but his defensive game, I believe, has been criticized unjustly. With the exception of Hughes, it has been a long time since Vancouver brought in a dynamic, young defensive prospect - a potential play driver. I don’t see that in Juolevi - at best, I see a good number three. But amazingly, we have yet another kid coming up in the immediate future, who could also be exceptional in Rathbone. The last time the team had a really dynamic, play driving defence, it was this bunch: Ehrhoff, Edler, Hamhuis, Salo, Bieksa, Ballard, Tanev, and Rome. That team did rather well. The next year, with Ehrhoff defected, both Edler and Bieksa had over 40 points, Hamhuis had 37, and Sal had 25 in 59 games. With Hughes and Schmidt at its core and these young guys coming up, I’m hoping for that kind of push again from the back. Hell, at least I can hope.

I hope thats true, if he's better defensively thats great. I just hate it when the fan base pumps a guy up unrealistically and then calls him a "bust". If he has a decent camp but still needs to percolate in Utica for some or all of this year thats not the end of the world if he's a complete player at the end of it, imo anyway.

 

I don't think Cull has orders from Jim to develop guys in one way or another, I think players are what they are and Cull is there to get the best out of whatever their skill set is. If Cull could do that kind of development we'd still have Goldy. 

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58 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Rafferty hasn't even played a game in the NHL, Juolevi has played one.  How can you make that statement when you haven't even seen an outcome?

 

I like the acquisition of Schmidt, he brings more to the table than Tanev.  But we need some more beef on the backend if we are to compete with Vegas and the other teams.  We need a more rugged stay at home Dman to compliment Hughes and we need the big Russian as well.  Hopefully Tryamkin can play with us this year and I'm looking forward to seeing what Benning is going to do to land us that partner for Quinn.

He actually has double the number of NHL games Juolevi has. How can you make that statement when you haven't even checked your facts?! :bigblush:

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-11-17 at 10.42.12 AM.png

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2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Rafferty hasn't even played a game in the NHL, Juolevi has played one.  How can you make that statement when you haven't even seen an outcome?

 

I like the acquisition of Schmidt, he brings more to the table than Tanev.  But we need some more beef on the backend if we are to compete with Vegas and the other teams.  We need a more rugged stay at home Dman to compliment Hughes and we need the big Russian as well.  Hopefully Tryamkin can play with us this year and I'm looking forward to seeing what Benning is going to do to land us that partner for Quinn.

I can make the statement because Schmidt is a vastly superior D-man to Tanev. That upgrade makes us better than any losses on the bottom pair.


Not to mention, we still have Benn if one of the rookies don’t pan out. And we can always find another cheap bottom-pairing D.

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3 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Rafferty hasn't even played a game in the NHL, Juolevi has played one.  How can you make that statement when you haven't even seen an outcome?

 

I like the acquisition of Schmidt, he brings more to the table than Tanev.  But we need some more beef on the backend if we are to compete with Vegas and the other teams.  We need a more rugged stay at home Dman to compliment Hughes and we need the big Russian as well.  Hopefully Tryamkin can play with us this year and I'm looking forward to seeing what Benning is going to do to land us that partner for Quinn.

Actually Rafferty played two games in the NHL, both at home and I watched both. Let's put it this way, he stood out. The game prior to Rafferty they gave Tevis a game and he looked below average, I watched that game too. a couple of shifts he played alongside Hughes and there was instant sympatico

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