Canuck Surfer Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, canuckistani said: And none of it has anything to do with the incorrectness Clearly we disagree. Nor do I believe its incorrect. I see clear signs of hate for cultural groups in your posts. Because other people in that group are terrorists. And your attempt to digress into the portions of the religious scripts that points some in the direction of hate, to justify your view, disgusting. These same sorts of views are what leads terrorism to foster. That's my opinion. You can find reasons for hate anywhere. I don't need you to prompt me to it. Its on plain view for everyone to see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: Clearly we disagree. Nor do I believe its incorrect. We disagree because your assumptions re: religious nutters is not based on an actual study of your religion, but simply an unsubtantiated assumption, akin to a religious belief itself. Quote I see clear signs of hate for cultural groups in your posts. If you equate my saying that not all ideologies are equal in their persuit of various activities or paradigms to hating the followers, then its your problem with reality, not mine. Quote Because other people in that group are terrorists. False assumption. Quote And your attempt to digress into the portions of the religious scripts that points some in the direction of hate, to justify your view, disgusting. These same sorts of views are what leads terrorism to foster. That's my opinion. Your opinion is irrelevant. My position is very simple and i refute your accusation of 'digressing into portions of the religious scripts that point some in direction of hate' : you cannot, from a logical,ethical or integrity perspective, comment on what religion/philosophy XYZ prescribes, how their followers behave, if its in greater/lesser accordance with religion/philosophy ABC, without having actually read them. In short, you taking of islamic terror or christian crusades, without having read the bible or the koran is like me talking about how to fix a car, without having ever read anything to do with fixing a car. Its speculative nonsense borne out of your desire for what the world SHOULD BE, rather than investigative of what ACTUALLY IS. I didn't comment on how religion X or Y is greater than or lesser than religion A or B in terms of 'pointing its users towards hate'. I simply asked you a question, since you are talking Islam, regarding if you are actually educated in the subject. Why should we care about what you think on how Islam is to blame or not to blame, if you have not read the source material to come to said conclusion ? Again, the Marxist POV of all religions being equal, is an assumption by Marx, that has no basis in reality. Religions, like any idea, varies massively from one another in its context, scope, effect and pros/cons. As someone who has read the main central books of 4 religions, i can decisively say, peddling your nonsense of ' all religions have nutters, its not a religious problem', is 100% false in whatever ill you notice in whatever religion. They exist, mostly because of the uniqueness of their texts prescribing as such. Edited April 23, 2019 by canuckistani 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: What Mosque is that..... ? You can walk to it from the Blue Mosque. Which we also visited. I'd add pictures, but yours is already spectacular. That one the Hagia Sophia. We were travelling to Ottawa for Christmas from Australia. Had stops in Singapore, were supposed to go to Mumbai, Rome, London, Ottawa, then home to Vancouver, Hong Kong then back to my adopted home in Perth Australia. Round the world tours cheaper than a two way flight. Went to Istanbul, rerouted, as a stop, because of the terrorist attack in Mumbai. They were hanging white people from the windows of the Taj hotel across the street from where we were to stay. It did not seem the time to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Your opinion is irrelevant LOL Some wonder why hate exists... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: You can walk to it from the Blue Mosque. Which we also visited. I'd add pictures, but yours is already spectacular. That one the Hagia Sophia. When i was in travelling across Turkey in the 1980's i travelled by myself hitchhiking or by bus. I shot my photos in 35mm black and white... Heh, i was an artsy drop out at the time....... Great memories of visiting some really tiny towns / villages.... Got fairly far east in Turkey near Adana before deciding i need to get back to the Marmaris / Bodrum area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: LOL Some wonder why hate exists... hate exists because people call out unsubstantiated nonsense as such ?! Interesting.... You did not answer my bolded question to you and if you can, you will see why our POVs will never, ever meet: i don't consider unsubstantiated opinions based 100% on beleifs and 0% on actual knowledge of the material at hand to be worth anything. If you wish to be taken seriously about opinions on XYZ, and i don't care if the XYZ is a religion, philosophy, economic system, biological science or physics, know the material behind it. Else, its just ignorance, by definition, being peddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, canuckistani said: hate exists because people call out unsubstantiated nonsense as such ?! Interesting.... You did not answer my bolded question to you and if you can, you will see why our POVs will never, ever meet: i don't consider unsubstantiated opinions based 100% on beleifs and 0% on actual knowledge of the material at hand to be worth anything. If you wish to be taken seriously about opinions on XYZ, and i don't care if the XYZ is a religion, philosophy, economic system, biological science or physics, know the material behind it. Else, its just ignorance, by definition, being peddled. I take it differently..... I think hate exists because of some people's intolerance and lack of respect for others.... sorry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, kingofsurrey said: I take it differently..... I think hate exists because of some people's intolerance and lack of respect for others.... sorry. that certainly is part of causing hate. another part is belief in hateful ideologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 22 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Why should we care about what you think on how Islam is to blame or not to blame, if you have not read the source material to come to said conclusion ? I don't need to read the bible, the koran to understand hate. Its on plain view just reading your posts before heading to my book shelf. I also don't believe these scriptures were written to incite hate. The opposite for the most part. An effort to understand life? But countless, endless, exhaustive, wars, and genocides, and acts of inhumanity, and terror, have been justified by a select few from within religions. The way zealots interpret those scriptures. And it was people who wrote these scriptures, not gods. In some cases thousands of years ago. I don't need you to goad me into trying to justifying anyone's actions, their views. Including my own. They are entitled to their view as long as they are peaceful, accepting of the need to work together so we can all live a good life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I don't need to read the bible, the koran to understand hate. But you DO need to read the bible/koran/<insert ideological tome here> to assert if the said ideology has anything to do with perpetrating hatred or not. Quote Its on plain view just reading your posts before heading to my book shelf. viewing hate ( as you allege) has nothing to do with understanding the cause behind it. Recognizing a symptom ( aka an emotion), tells you nothing about what caused it. Quote I also don't believe these scriptures were written to incite hate. On the basis of what ? you were around, when they were composed, to talk to their composers or know their minds ?! You have not even read them, to know what they talk of - how do you know which ones talk about 'why they were written' and which ones do not ? Quote The opposite for the most part. Again, on the basis of what ? If you have no idea what those books say, then what is the basis of you concluding the basis of their writing ?!? Quote An effort to understand life? But countless, endless, exhaustive, wars, and genocides, and acts of inhumanity, and terror, have been justified by a select few from within religions. The way zealots interpret those scriptures. And it was people who wrote these scriptures, not gods. In some cases thousands of years ago. Which religions ? all religions ? every single one of them ? How do the zealots of Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Sikkhism, Judaism, Christianity & Islam engage in their zealotry ? What about Tengriism ? All interpret the same way ? They all incite the same frequency and magnitude of violence towards humans, animals, preservation of forests and such ? Again, based on what do you make such assumptions ? Quote I don't need you to goad me into trying to justifying anyone's actions, their views. Including my own. One ALWAYS has to justify their beleifs, if they wish to be taken seriously, for that is ALL we have to differentiate between rational coherence and irrational coherence. You can believe your identity is a carrot and humans are cannibalistic zombies. If you wish me or anyone else to take your POV seriously, you have to provide justification. Quote They are entitled to their view as long as they are peaceful, accepting of the need to work together so we can all live a good life. See, you just gave a justification towards entitlement of views : the said views are justified because they are allegedly, peaceful and team-oriented, operating under the assumption that peace & team oriented POV is 'good'. Personally, i am way more liberal than you: i believe that people are entitled to believe in WHATEVER they wish, whether its genocidal or peaceful, is irrelevant. Because unlike you or many in the left, i do not equate beliefs with actions in the scale of culpability. Edited April 24, 2019 by canuckistani 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kragar Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, kingofsurrey said: The world needs more love and respect.... WAY too much intolerance and hate in our world right now..... You are absolutely right... which is why I don't understand why you were confused with my earlier post. My point is that too many Dems, liberals, and leftists are not showing any where near the same respect to the multitude of good, peaceful Christians, conservatives (and Jews for that matter, although that wasn't touched on earlier) than they show for the good, peaceful Muslims, and that they have harsher words for white nationalist terrorists than Muslim ones. Is there a reason one group of good people should be treated differently than another? Is someone murdering a hundred people in a mosque any worse than someone who murders a hundred people in a church? They sound equally despicable to me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Kragar said: You are absolutely right... which is why I don't understand why you were confused with my earlier post. My point is that too many Dems, liberals, and leftists are not showing any where near the same respect to the multitude of good, peaceful Christians, conservatives (and Jews for that matter, although that wasn't touched on earlier) than they show for the good, peaceful Muslims, and that they have harsher words for white nationalist terrorists than Muslim ones. Is there a reason one group of good people should be treated differently than another? Is someone murdering a hundred people in a mosque any worse than someone who murders a hundred people in a church? They sound equally despicable to me. Yes, the reason being, the fundamental concern, above any, for majority of white left-leaning folks, is to demonstrate that they are not racist. Ergo, they have this ludicrous tilt of condemning their own 'race' more vehemently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, canuckistani said: that certainly is part of causing hate. another part is belief in hateful ideologies. OK, you goaded me into it... People interpret ideologies as hate because that's the way they want to interpret it. And seek out the hate within an ideology because there are hateful people, that's what they do. Hateful people contributed to those scriptures. Which is why I don't need to read them to understand there is hate. Henry the 8th did not like certain scripture, so he created his own ''divine right of kings!'' Which gave him the right to behead his wives. Maybe because he did not want to commit adultery! He would not have committed adultery, would he? A commandment says your not supposed to do that! The pope would not annul his marriage, so he created his own church. I think he killed the priest as well? People still go to that church, follow its scripture. Sikh's broke from Hinduism in part opposing a cast system which was used to rule over its regions. That on its own is certainly no crime, even understandable. But laws are written '' in the name of god,' there is one god (and its ours), and we can write our own laws because its our god right? Right?? These are complicated subjects. And there are flaws in every religion answering one of your further questions above. No I don't understand it all, most of it really. Should I? What I observe is religion is often, too often, an opportunity mechanism. Usually relating to offering someone power and control over subjects… Where the majority of people believe in religion in the interest of peace, understanding? Often because leaders say that's what it is. Its opportunists who transform it. Use it. Go ahead, read the Koran, blame it for the behaviour of a terrorist. Its inevitable a muslim will be a terrorist. Is that your point? Fill your boots! 46 minutes ago, canuckistani said: See, you just gave a justification towards entitlement of views 46 minutes ago, canuckistani said: One ALWAYS has to justify their beleifs I suppose? My own belief is we do need the rule of law. Not being a strong believer in religion, I definitely don't believe in law as the will of god. Nor something one human should have the right to will over another because of ''their'' god. Another common problem in the world. Just an observation. Its something us as humans should agree on. All people need to be able to contribute to law. That there should be mechanisms protect from those that over impose themselves. Opportunity to end oppressions which also lend to violence and war. I do believe in voting. Although governments get voted in, then give their voting regions more money from collected taxes. So someone else gets voted in, and someone else gets rich? It's not completely perfect in comparison to ''gods will?'' Leaders need to be wary of both tolerance, and humanly ensure considerations for all constituents, including some less capable. I hope we all can agree that the terror attacks in Sri Lanka were abhorrent. That law mechanisms can & should ask for accountability. That leaders, not leaders who condone and use such violence and fear as their rule of law either, get together to improve the oppressions that see people needing to move to civil action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Just now, Canuck Surfer said: OK, you goaded me into it... People interpret ideologies as hate because that's the way they want to interpret it. And seek out the hate within an ideology because there are hateful people, that's what they do. Hateful people contributed to those scriptures. Which is why I don't need to read them to understand there is hate. Prove said bolded line with citation. Prove to us, that it is being 'interpreted' as hateful by those who wanna see hatred, instead of it being hateful by itself. If i write ' and you shall kill any infidel who questions our God', is the said text hateful on its own or 'requiring interpretation of hatre' because thats how you wanna see it ?? Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Henry the 8th did not like certain scripture, so he created his own ''divine right of kings!'' Which gave him the right to behead his wives. Maybe because he did not want to commit adultery! He would not have committed adultery, would he? A commandment says your not supposed to do that! The pope would not annul his marriage, so he created his own church. I think he killed the priest as well? People still go to that church, follow its scripture. Correct. This is valid for Christianity. A religion which does NOT claim untampered, divine text for its core tenets. Tell us which religions claim untampered texts, which do not, which consider their words directly spoken by God or its messengers and which ones do not make such claims. Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Sikh's broke from Hinduism in part opposing a cast system which was used to rule over its regions. That on its own is certainly no crime, even understandable. But laws are written '' in the name of god,' there is one god (and its ours), and we can write our own laws because its our god right? Right?? True for Sikkhism, Judaism,Christianity and Islam. Is it true for Hinduism ( many Gods), Buddhism ( nebulous on Gods) or Jainism ? Just now, Canuck Surfer said: These are complicated subjects. And there are flaws in every religion answering one of your further questions above. No I don't understand it all, most of it really. Should I? Yes you should. Because religions are not the same. A Jain fanatic shares almost nothing in common with an Islamic fanatic, a hindu fanatic has little or no common with a Christian fanatic - in terms of beliefs, purpose towards the beliefs, actual quantified actions for said beliefs, etc. Just now, Canuck Surfer said: What I observe is religion is often, too often, an opportunity mechanism. Usually relating to offering someone power and control over subjects… Which religion ? One or all of them ? Do they all have the same opportunity mechanism ? Please substantiate said claim with examples & citations of said religions. Do organized religions like Christianity or Judaism have the same scope & effect of opportunity mechanism as semi-organized religions like Islam and Hinduism or unorganized religions like Jainism & Tengriism ? Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Where the majority of people believe in religion in the interest of peace, understanding? Often because leaders say that's what it is. Its opportunists who transform it. Use it. Please prove to us that majority of people believe in religion in interest of peace and not simply from being born into it. Please prove that religions all have equally been transformed, as a function of time. Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Go ahead, read the Koran, blame it for the behaviour of a terrorist. Its inevitable a muslim will be a terrorist. Is that your point? Fill your boots! I suppose? The bolded part is never said by me, infact i categorically said that people, of every religion, show asymetric following of their belief systems, leading to very few people actually matching up to the tenets of any religion as the religion is intended (by its own writings). But without reading the Koran, explain to us, how you can say it plays exactly the same role, or no role, or lesser/greater role, in formenting violence compared to the Bible or the Guru Granth Sahib or such like ? You have simply not answered my question re: what basis do you have to exonerate , condemn or equate one religion, with another, or all others, if you have not read the subject material pertaining to said religions. By the same rationale, should we treat socialism, communism, social democratism, fascism, nazism, libertarianism, etc. all the same 'politics' ? Just now, Canuck Surfer said: My own belief is we do need the rule of law. Not being a strong believer in religion, I definitely don't believe in law as the will of god. Nor something one human should have the right to will over another because of ''their'' god. Another common problem in the world. Just an observation. As an atheist, i will say that while i prefer the rule of law sans divine invocation, divine invocation is just as valid a POV for enabling legal code as any other. I care for result of a system than moral justification. I have lived in autocracies and now live in democracies. I can think of plenty of autocracies i will happily inhabit over plenty of democracies. Just now, Canuck Surfer said: Its something us as humans should agree on. All people need to be able to contribute to law. That there should be mechanisms protect from those that over impose themselves. i see no rational basis for that. Why should all people be able to contribute to law ? Why should my ignorance of a topic enable me the exact same scope of contributing to law making than your years and years of qualified expertese in said field ? ( say lumber tarrifs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kragar said: Is someone murdering a hundred people in a mosque any worse than someone who murders a hundred people in a church? They sound equally despicable to me. Absolutely. Both are equally terrible humans. People need to spend time with other cultures / religions and learn that our differences are very few and we share much more in similarity. People are people. Respect to all. Edited April 24, 2019 by kingofsurrey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 35 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Prove said bolded line with citation. ''People interpret ideologies as hate because that's the way they want to interpret it.'' >>> Was what I said. https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/sri-lanka-bombings-were-in-retaliation-for-new-zealand-attacks-minister-says/ar-BBWc0fw?ocid=spartanntp Its been reported this attack is in response to Christchurch. In Sri Lanka, the attacks were on Catholic Churches and Hotels. ISIS claimed responsibility. The Christchurch attacks were by a white supremacist with alternate right extremism not a church going catholic. But that is his background. Became obsessed by terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings#Manifesto What is common? Both randomly attacked an ideologically different group than themselves they perceived a problem. They did not attack any persons directly responsible for their fear of this ideology. They just randomly attacked. That's proof of hate in my interpretation. Yet its wrapped in ''Islam.'' and ''White Supremicism.'' The guy in Christchurch was against non white immigration, an Australian, but attacks in New Zealand? That's also proof of hate in my interpretation. Both claim religion as an associative background for their right to take on the atrocities they committed. I highly doubt victims who survived Christchurch, the ones who attend Mosques in Christchurch, in any way support a random attack on Catholic Churches 12,000 km's away. To a people completely unrelated to this idiot from here in Australia. I am not sure I want to know what ''proof'' you need? Or why anyone owes it to you. That thought itself scares me. That's as much as I intend to indulge this conversation. My real thoughts are with those who have suffered & lost loved ones. CS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/sri-lanka-bombings-were-in-retaliation-for-new-zealand-attacks-minister-says/ar-BBWc0fw?ocid=spartanntp Its been reported this attack is in response to Christchurch. In Sri Lanka, the attacks were on Catholic Churches and Hotels. ISIS claimed responsibility. The Christchurch attacks were by a white supremacist with alternate right extremism not a church going catholic. But that is his background. Became obsessed by terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings#Manifesto Irrelevant. It does not prove whether the said passage/texts are 'being interpreted hatefully by hateful people' or if 'they are commanding people to commit hateful acts in themselves'. The proof of whether the passages are being hatefully translated or are hateful in themselves, is IN THE DAMN PASSAGES. Provide analysis to support your claim, please. 2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: What is common? Both randomly attacked an ideologically different group than themselves they perceived a problem. They did not attack any persons directly responsible for their fear of this ideology. They just randomly attacked. That's proof of hate in my interpretation. Yet its wrapped in ''Islam.'' and ''White Supremicism.'' The guy in Christchurch was against non white immigration, an Australian, but attacks in New Zealand? That's also proof of hate in my interpretation. Both claim religion as an associative background for their right to take on the atrocities they committed. Without reading the manifesto of the Christchurch bomber or the manifesto of the said Islamist terrorist group taking responsibility, how do you come to the conclusion of them 'perciving hate from choosing to interpret it that way' or 'being commanded to do so by their set of ideologies'. 2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: I am not sure I want to know what ''proof'' you need? Or why anyone owes it to you. That thought itself scares me. Make a statement = prepare to back it up when questioned. That is our methodology, as a species, for fact-checking/verification of logic. What's far more scary, is you expect us to believe your proclamations on various religions, despite your admission that you know jack $hit about it, because its what 'you believe to be true'. Aka, more dogmatic nonsense with zero substantiation. Then getting bent out of shape when asked to provide substantiation. I am still waiting for you to show us that all religions are the same, have the same extremist ideologies and that extremists of all religions act the same way, in same frequency and intensity. That, is effectively your claim. 2 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said: That's as much as I intend to indulge this conversation. My real thoughts are with those who have suffered & lost loved ones. CS Sure, thoughts and prayers to the bereaved is a nice, idle gesture, while shunning any meaningful analysis of various ideologies, systems and religions at play - ya know, some ACTUAL solutions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, canuckistani said: ya know, some ACTUAL solutions.... Sadly not sure there will ever be solutions for mental health crazy hatred / rage filled terrorists.... My only thought is for people in all countries to spend time with other citizens that are different in race , religion, language, special needs, ethnicity, social economic class, addictions, etc etc... By spending time with many others that you think are different...... you will slowly learn that actually . WE ARE ALL THE SAME.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckistani Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: Sadly not sure there will ever be solutions for mental health crazy hatred / rage filled terrorists.... Well we may eventually have to actively modify some religions, just like how we ban conggregation of certain philosophies. 3 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: My only thought is for people in all countries to spend time with other citizens that are different in race , religion, language, special needs, ethnicity, social economic class, addictions, etc etc... And when that happens, people realize very quickly that not all religions are the same - some are more hate-filled than others, some are more workman-like than others, some promote more mental peace than others, etc etc. It destroys the leftist marxist narrative of 'equality of all religions and religious fanatics churned out due to extra-religious reasons'. 3 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said: By spending time with many others that you think are different...... you will slowly learn that actually . WE ARE ALL THE SAME.... People are all the same. Religions are NOT all the same. That is an assinine falsehood spread by the marxists due to their disdain of religion itself and Marx/Engels' lack of knowledge of religions outside of Judeo-Christianity. Religions are just like political philosophies - vastly different from each other, with vastly different pros and cons, just like Communism is to Fascism or Free Market systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingofsurrey Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, canuckistani said: Well we may eventually have to actively modify some religions, just like how we ban conggregation of certain philosophies. And when that happens, people realize very quickly that not all religions are the same - some are more hate-filled than others, some are more workman-like than others, some promote more mental peace than others, etc etc. It destroys the leftist marxist narrative of 'equality of all religions and religious fanatics churned out due to extra-religious reasons'. People are all the same. Religions are NOT all the same. That is an assinine falsehood spread by the marxists due to their disdain of religion itself and Marx/Engels' lack of knowledge of religions outside of Judeo-Christianity. Religions are just like political philosophies - vastly different from each other, with vastly different pros and cons, just like Communism is to Fascism or Free Market systems. Do you see all organized religions as dividing people and teaching / promoting intolerance ? Or do you see only certain religions doing this on a larger scale. Just curious on your thoughts ..... . Edited April 24, 2019 by kingofsurrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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