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Trans individuals are killing female sports


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1 hour ago, canuckistani said:

Its very very easy to do so and bulk majority of humans would easily take some discomfort and social scorn/danger for 15-20 years of their lives for enough money to take care of the next 4 generations. 

 

If you are telling me that there arnt men out there, who'd seriously consider putting their sex lives, moods etc. through hell, grow boobs and put up with scorn to make 5 million dollars before 40, then hope, pray and cross your fingers to use 1 million of that to 'go back to who you were as much as possible', i'd say thats an extremely naive idea. 


Pro sports has tons of money in it. The trans-lady who smushed the cycling record and won a major cycling women's meet made a quarter million dollars due to it. Her career isn't over either. I have no reason to think her intentions are honest, when the most objective evidence of dishonest-inducing behavior in history of species homo sapiens is present in the equation: money. 

 

Was referencing this.

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2 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. Cost to benefit analysis begins and ends with how much the 'cost of the given up lifestyle' would be, vs how much they stand to gain. 

Everything going according to plan ? Self esteem to deal with scorn ??? Sports is fundamentally adversarial. most sports-people do not care one jot if they are loathed or not. Plenty of men and women. Caster Semanya does not give  jot she is hated, she does it. Steffi Graf didnt give a jot being openly called out by Navratilova or such for being a crap tennis personality ( she refused interviews, said 3 words and screwed off, even saying she is here to play tennis, not answer your questions), etc. Its naive to think that for pro sportsmen ' what others to think' is a big enough factor to forego millions in a decade and half. Especially when they are willing to make the same millions by the boatloads by objectively endangering their bodies and destroying their lives by doping by their droves. 

In tennis today, how many men could beat the top women’s players?  Maybe 500-1000?

what are the odds one of those guys is going become s girl, so he can win big money?  

I don’t think there are any trans girls competing at the elite level in any female sport that makes big money.  

The problem is trans girls competing at the lower level sports and in younger age groups.  

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34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

There is a big difference between half the planet not distinguishing and not existing.

No, there isn't. These are linguistic terms. Its like saying 'there is a big difference between english not distinguishing and neuter gender not existing'. Ie, in the same language family i mentioned, objects have a gender too - its the neuter gender. I am not imposing it on English for precisely the same reason you cannot impose gender on languages that do not have gender seperate from sex: these are terms DEFINED by the language itself, nothing more, nothing less. 

34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Besides the nature of the inclusion into the women’s division is really up to the sporting body so it exists if they want it to exist.

Sure. Include away in English. But if the Chinese do not want to play by the rules of English and compete against a biological male, in what is a 'female 100m dash' in their language, are not obligated to let them compete, either. 

34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

 

These aren’t intrinsic human features or linguistic constructs they are sporting bodies which are silly organizations with silly rules that have people doing silly things.  They can make up whatever rules they desire with only moderate input from governing bodies, governments etc.

Sure. Doesn't change the fact that if a sporting body allows a decisive blatant & unfair advantage to a subsection of their participants, their credibility will go out of the window and said sporting body can be sued on principle of fair employment standards. Or else i may be able to throw a billion dollars at the olympics tennis body, qualify myself as a paraplegic in THEIR sporting body's rule-set and etch my name in history winning gold in paralympics tennis. And that should be fair too - afterall, its the sporting body that decieded to include me and grant my decisive biological advantage as a 'identity fluid' criteria. 

34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

 

i agree ultimately the test of fairness is that the best person for the job gets should get the job. This is also the argument that has always been used to exclude groups from jobs they haven’t typically had.

Yep. Rome wasn't built in a day. You won't have equality in your lifetime if you are a minority of some sorts. I know this, as a minority. If i try to shoe-horn myself into a position that i do not deserve, because i come from a colored group who were historically oppressed or any such, i perpetuate the cycle. But i can begin the meritocratic countdown today, work for true merit, true merit-based and needs-based access to skills and sometime, down in the distance, my descendants will reap the seeds of REAL EQUALITY. 

 

No decisive change comes easy. 

34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

When the only difference between upper management and middle management and the entry level workers is the age of their white male face, you may need to make a few extra efforts to be inclusive.

No. I do not require such advantages, nor do i find any such advantages given to us minorities to be beneficial to society long term. I like to earn what i have, thank you. 

34 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

Okay jumping to President was a little tongue in cheek but there are plenty of women coaches and management out there in hockey that we should have seen an assistant coach or AGM by now. At some point you have to look at it and say this seems intentional. 

Intentional as to what. I can easily flip that back to you and say that the only reason we have so many women CEO is because it was intentional and merit was thrown out of the window for optics. And objectively, that would be empirically established. 


Perhaps there are not that many women interested in hockey coaching and the pool is super-shallow. Why should that not be a factor ? most nurses in the world are women- the world's top 100 nurses today would have 99 of them women. Why should a dude get shoe-horned in that 'lets make it equal and fiddy fiddy' ? Equal access to stuff does not mean equal emphasis on stuff between the sexes. I see no reason why it should require engineering: no other species has required engineering and their social & genetic equilibrium has been achieved for millions of years, yet you wanna force us into 'men and women should do everything 50-50, screw if women and men want different things, thats social programming, not innate bias' dogma. Why ? 

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5 minutes ago, Alflives said:

In tennis today, how many men could beat the top women’s players?  Maybe 500-1000?

what are the odds one of those guys is going become s girl, so he can win big money?  

I don’t think there are any trans girls competing at the elite level in any female sport that makes big money.  

The problem is trans girls competing at the lower level sports and in younger age groups.  

Um, Serena williams at her peak would get 6-1,6-1 bagelled by world #300 dude. In fact something like that happened to her older sis, Venus, when she was 19 and ranked in the top 10, some German nobody guy- ranked outside the top 300-  made a point of male dominance in tennis by chugging a can of coke and then smoking a cig immediately before beating her 6-1,6-1, because Venus threw down a challenge to any man outside world top 50 to beat her.

 A 55 year old retired Bobby Riggs and practicing for only 2 months after a 15 year break from tennis( who was never a top pro but a whipping boy for the pre-open pro circuit) ended up losing to reigning world #1 Billie Jean King by a score of 6-4,6-4. That too, Billie played into the doubles court, Bobby into the singles and Bobby was restricted to no second serve ( ie, 1st serve out = point to Billie). 

 

if you watch mixed doubles, there is no chance for pro women vs pro men over a set of tennis, never-mind best of 3/5. None, nada, zip 

 

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8 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Um, Serena williams at her peak would get 6-1,6-1 bagelled by world #300 dude. In fact something like that happened to her older sis, Venus, when she was 19 and ranked in the top 10, some German nobody guy- ranked outside the top 300-  made a point of male dominance in tennis by chugging a can of coke and then smoking a cig immediately before beating her 6-1,6-1, because Venus threw down a challenge to any man outside world top 50 to beat her.

 A 55 year old retired Bobby Riggs and practicing for only 2 months after a 15 year break from tennis( who was never a top pro but a whipping boy for the pre-open pro circuit) ended up losing to reigning world #1 Billie Jean King by a score of 6-4,6-4. That too, Billie played into the doubles court, Bobby into the singles and Bobby was restricted to no second serve ( ie, 1st serve out = point to Billie). 

 

if you watch mixed doubles, there is no chance for pro women vs pro men over a set of tennis, never-mind best of 3/5. None, nada, zip 

 

I watched the Riggs v Billy Jean hype and match.  It was great theatre.  Let’s say there are 1000 men who could beat the top females.  None of those guys are going to become female.  

What guy is going to give up his junk for maybe winning some money?  None.  

I think this sports issue is only in the obscure category.  

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8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I watched the Riggs v Billy Jean hype and match.  It was great theatre.  Let’s say there are 1000 men who could beat the top females.  None of those guys are going to become female.  

What guy is going to give up his junk for maybe winning some money?  None.  

You do realize that there are 'de-transitioned' trans-women out there as well, right ? Guys don't have to give up their junk. They have to take hormones to grow boobs and fall within female hormone levels for Testosterone. Its pretty crap for their system but its not 'giving up junk' per se. And even if they had to, for millions, there are plenty of guys who'd give up their junk, especially when its 'reversible'. 

 

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1 minute ago, canuckistani said:

You do realize that there are 'de-transitioned' trans-women out there as well, right ? Guys don't have to give up their junk. They have to take hormones to grow boobs and fall within female hormone levels for Testosterone. Its pretty crap for their system but its not 'giving up junk' per se. And even if they had to, for millions, there are plenty of guys who'd give up their junk, especially when its 'reversible'. 

 

It’s reversible?  Crazy times.  So a top male tennis player at age 22, let’s say 100, could take pills to lower his testosterone levels to s female (keeping his dangly bits) win millions, and then at age 30 go back to before?  

Okay, there definitely needs to be rules against that.  

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Just now, Alflives said:

It’s reversible?  Crazy times.  So a top male tennis player at age 22, let’s say 100, could take pills to lower his testosterone levels to s female (keeping his dangly bits) win millions, and then at age 30 go back to before?  

Okay, there definitely needs to be rules against that.  

They can, but the boobs will never go away without surgery. 

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a lot of people are bringing up trans surgery as a deterrence to cheating... 

 

that's actually not true. because you don't even need to do the surgery to be considered a 'trans woman'.  virtually all these trans people competing as men have male genetals

 

one of the issues is what is the standard that makes a male and female? after you sort that out, then you can begin to discuss if people will cheat or not (which they will) 

 

those 2 trans guys dominating the competition were competing as men the prior 3 years.  they were mediocre men that became transgender women 1 day and started crushing the competition and making the state finals (and reaping the scholarship rewards from it)

 

the standard today is. you declare youself a woman,you are woman.  Donald trump can become the first female president in history if he declared himself so, by this logic.

 

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41 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I watched the Riggs v Billy Jean hype and match.  It was great theatre.  Let’s say there are 1000 men who could beat the top females.  None of those guys are going to become female.  

What guy is going to give up his junk for maybe winning some money?  None.  

I think this sports issue is only in the obscure category.  

This is 100% true, Alf.  

 

And while armchair pundits can dream up scary stories of men just randomly declaring “I’m a woman” to go win a tournament, that’s not what the trans movement is about at all.  

 

I think it’s way more likely someone would do this as a publicity stunt or a misguided and uninformed attempt to make a statement about what’s wrong with the trans movement than a hair-brained scheme to just make some money.  

 

In the end, though, if most of the “concern” being proposed is about people using legitimate trans athletes as a loophole to make some money, then checks and balances need to be put in place to stop them just like any other cheaters who use performance enhancing drugs, etc. 

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57 minutes ago, Alflives said:

 

What guy is going to give up his junk for maybe winning some money?  

Isn't that more of a question for your wife?

 

9 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

This is 100% true, Alf.  

 

And while armchair pundits can dream up scary stories of men just randomly declaring “I’m a woman” to go win a tournament, that’s not what the trans movement is about at all.  

 

I think it’s way more likely someone would do this as a publicity stunt or a misguided and uninformed attempt to make a statement about what’s wrong with the trans movement than a hair-brained scheme to just make some money.  

 

In the end, though, if most of the “concern” being proposed is about people using legitimate trans athletes as a loophole to make some money, then checks and balances need to be put in place to stop them just like any other cheaters who use performance enhancing drugs, etc. 

and very soon if that starts happening no one is going to pay to watch them or have these people in endorsements, which is where the real money is. The whole concept of this thread is false. But it as also brought out a few good discussions so from that pov its been worth it.

 

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3 hours ago, canuckistani said:

This is not pedantic, this is decisive. I am not just familiar with the said topic, i am also familiar with HOW this topic is screwed up in English or many European languages PRECISELY for this pedantic reason. 

You cannot call yourself a trans-female. Female and male are decisively sex related terms, not gender identity. You can go through surgery and if you are born male, i can determine that via analysing your skin cell. Same with women or intersex. 

As such, in most of the world languages, there is no difference between the term 'male' and 'men' or 'female' and 'woman', in said cultures, trans people do NOT identify as 'trans-women' or 'trans-men'. They cannot. They have the trans category for themselves. 

That doesn’t make sense that it’s somehow better.  Don’t the individuals want to identify as male or female - man or woman - different from their assigned gender at birth?  “Trans” may be technically true but I don’t see the problem with just labelling them as man or woman.  Labelling them as just “trans” seems like it’s pushing away an already dangerously marginalized group,

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22 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

That doesn’t make sense that it’s somehow better.  Don’t the individuals want to identify as male or female - man or woman - different from their assigned gender at birth?  “Trans” may be technically true but I don’t see the problem with just labelling them as man or woman.  Labelling them as just “trans” seems like it’s pushing away an already dangerously marginalized group,

How does it not make sense ? Its very simple. You have penis + you feel ok = man. You have penis + you feel something is amiss in how you think penis people should behave = trans. You have vag + you ok = woman. You have vag + you feel something is amiss = trans. You are intersex = also trans. Its a simple matrix of ' A, B and not A/B'. problem solved. This is how language who do not distinguish between sex and gender terminologies work and its far more linear, far easier to deal with and far less cause of useless lingo wars. 

 

Its male, female, other. Pushing away ? thats your Euro-centric culture talking. where trans have been subject to conversion therapy, incarcerated, etc. Try telling a Thai that the trans category is pushing away a trans. Or an Indian - they will laugh at you. The category has existed in their languages for thousands of years. Kama Sutra talks of transgender people in its sexual discourse. To your culture it may sound like a stigmatized term, it isn't worldwide. 

 

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56 minutes ago, sam13371337 said:

a lot of people are bringing up trans surgery as a deterrence to cheating... 

 

that's actually not true. because you don't even need to do the surgery to be considered a 'trans woman'.  virtually all these trans people competing as men have male genetals

 

one of the issues is what is the standard that makes a male and female? after you sort that out, then you can begin to discuss if people will cheat or not (which they will) 

 

those 2 trans guys dominating the competition were competing as men the prior 3 years.  they were mediocre men that became transgender women 1 day and started crushing the competition and making the state finals (and reaping the scholarship rewards from it)

 

the standard today is. you declare youself a woman,you are woman.  Donald trump can become the first female president in history if he declared himself so, by this logic.

 

Make guys get their dangly bits chopped off to qualify for female competition, and I’m thinking the whole guys declaring they’re girls to compete in girl’s sports will stop.  

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40 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

This is 100% true, Alf.  

 

And while armchair pundits can dream up scary stories of men just randomly declaring “I’m a woman” to go win a tournament, that’s not what the trans movement is about at all.  

Nobody said thats what the trans-movement is all about, though its disturbing what many aspects of trans-movement is leading to, from a purely scientific POV. However, the consequence to protected sports categories, like women's sports, from trans-movement is the scope of this thread and is decisive in its adverse effects on female sports. 

40 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

 

I think it’s way more likely someone would do this as a publicity stunt or a misguided and uninformed attempt to make a statement about what’s wrong with the trans movement than a hair-brained scheme to just make some money.  

Hair brained scheme to make money ? You do get that we have thousands upon thousands of people risking their lives, messing with their heart conditions, liver & kidney functions, etc. to dope, to win money and fame ? So somehow something that is objectively a far lesser risk ( as in, not shortening lifespan/death risk) are 'hair brained' how exactly ?

 

40 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

 

In the end, though, if most of the “concern” being proposed is about people using legitimate trans athletes as a loophole to make some money, then checks and balances need to be put in place to stop them just like any other cheaters who use performance enhancing drugs, etc. 

the problem is, the idea of legitimate trans athlete participating in female sports itself is tantamount to enabling an unfair advantage in a protected sport. Might as well allow the brown people to dope, for eg. 

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4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Make guys get their dangly bits chopped off to qualify for female competition, and I’m thinking the whole guys declaring they’re girls to compete in girl’s sports will stop.  

but getting your dangly bit chopped off or taking hormones will not alter the advantage you have from puberty. 

Easier solution is - make it male and female sports. make trans-women compete in male sports.  Identity is irrelevant in a field when the categories set are biological and whether you identify as a girl or a boy, man or woman, is irrelevant to what your body is and is capable of. 

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1 minute ago, canuckistani said:

but getting your dangly bit chopped off or taking hormones will not alter the advantage you have from puberty. 

Easier solution is - make it male and female sports. make trans-women compete in male sports.  Identity is irrelevant in a field when the categories set are biological and whether you identify as a girl or a boy, man or woman, is irrelevant to what your body is and is capable of. 

That’s too easy.  This is what Alf recommends.  Want to be a guy who competes against girls?  This is what you need to do.

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9 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

but getting your dangly bit chopped off or taking hormones will not alter the advantage you have from puberty. 

Easier solution is - make it male and female sports. make trans-women compete in male sports.  Identity is irrelevant in a field when the categories set are biological and whether you identify as a girl or a boy, man or woman, is irrelevant to what your body is and is capable of. 

So by that logic - trans men should compete against women.?

 

You posted an article, the author wrote about the T factor being a distinct marker related to performance in sport... 

 

It's not like the powers that be will say - "if you were born with lady parts but identify as a man - you must compete against men. If you were born with boy parts and identify as a woman - sorry champ, you've gotta find other ladyboys to compete against because dicks, chicks and muscles don't mix"

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