[proposal] The Canucks should finish building their forward group this Summer. Build Defense Later.

[Hindustan Smyl]

[proposal] The Canucks should finish building their forward group this Summer.   Build Defense Later.

 

Make no mistake about it.  Defense is currently our weakest position.  More specifically, our right side D is our weakest position.    

 

However, as much as I tried to convince myself that our defense could be fixed this off season via UFA/RFA/trade, it’s simply not a viable option:

 

-Stralman is long in the tooth and would likely demand three years if he was to come out here.

-Gardiner is error prone when it matters most.

-Myers is slow and injury prone.  

-Trouba would cost too much and the rumour is that he wants to head down south.  By heading down south.

-Subban would cost us too many assets and perhaps there’s a reason why Montreal moved on from him and why there are rumblings in Nashville.  His age, relative to where the Canucks are at as a team, is also a factor.

-Karlsson’s age is also a factor.  How old would Karlsson be by the time the Canucks were elite again?  Karlsson’s body also seems to be breaking down.

 

The bottom line is this:   Although our defense, and the right side more specifically, is the biggest organizational need that we need to address, I don’t think the available options this year via UFA/RFA/trade are suitable options.

 

As a result, I think the Canucks should focus on completing their build of their forward group this offseason, while continuing to build their defense through the draft and prospect accumulation.

 

Here is how I see our forward group right now:

 

#####-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-#####

Baertschi-#####-Virtanen

Roussel-Beagle-Leivo

 

Perhaps Roussel can replace Baertschi at some point (ie Roussel returns to the line-up from IR).

 

No matter how you slice it however, I think the Canucks need.....

 

1) A top line LW’er

2) A 2nd line RW’er

3) A new 3rd line Center with half decent playmaking ability.

 

Here is what I would do:

 

1) Go HARD after Dzingel or Duchene to fill the vacancy of top line LW.  My first choice would be Dzingel because he wouldn’t be as expensive.

 

3) Promote Gaudette.   Move on from Sutter.  Make Gaudette the 3rd line Center and move Sutter to Anaheim for a pick.  Clear cap space.

 

2) I’ll save #2 for last here because I know it will be the most controversial and require the most explanation.  Trade our 2019 1st overall to Toronto for William Nylander.   Yes - Nylander will have a 10 million dollar cap hit next year, but that cap hit will go down to below 7 million (6.9ish) after that.   Nylander had an off year this past season due to him having missed training camp, but this guy is a 20+ goal/60+ point producer in the league....and given his age, this could possibly increase.   Nylander has his warts (ie soft perimeter player), but most 2nd line players have warts of some kind.   The key is to play him with players that complement his game (ie Horvat).   The other thing realize with Nylander is this:   

 

Nylander is already better than all/most 10th overall picks.   Check history and you will see what I mean.   The only reason why the Canucks would be able to get a good young asset for a bargain discount (only one 1st rounder) is because Toronto is in absolute cap hell and need help in the worst way.

 

Some people believe that they will be able to offer sheet Kapanen on July 1st, but competition will be fierce for Kapanen.  Our chances of successfully prying Kapanen would be slim to none.   RFA offer sheets usually damage relationships between GM’s as well.....and Benning and Dubas have a good relationship.  Trade the 2019 1st for the cap challenged Toronto, and help Toronto out by helping them with their cap problems.  It’s a win-win situation.  

 

4) Bye Bye to Sutter, Eriksson, Schaller, and Granlund.   Sutter to Anaheim + Eriksson and Schaller to Ottawa.  Granlund for a bucket of chicken.  Clear cap space.

 

My ideal line-up for October 2019:

 

Dzingel-Pettersson-Boeser

Pearson-Horvat-Nylander

[Goldobin/Baertschi]-Gaudette-Virtanen

[Roussel/Motte]-Beagle-Leivo

 

Edler-Stecher

Hutton-Tanev

Hughes-Schenn

 

4) What to do with our defense:  

 

I would take a more long term approach with our D.

 

A) Sign Edler for two more years.

B-) Let Juolevi develop in the AHL

C) Let Tryamkin play out his contract in Russia

D) Keep Tanev here until his contract expires.  Sign him on one year deals until Woo is ready to crack the line-up.

E). Keep an eye on Gaudette and Madden this year.  Trade Sutter and give Gaudette a solid opportunity as the defacto 3rd line Center.  Give Gaudette lots of ice-time and a loads of opportunities to take a leap in his game.  

 

After this season, see where both Gaudette and Madden are with their games.  Depending on their improvement or potential, management can then make decisions:

 

1) Is atleast one of Gaudette or Madden our long term solution as the 3rd line Center?

2) If one or both of Gaudette and Madden increase their value this year, what type of RHD prospect would the Canucks be able to receive in return for one of these players?

 

By the end of this Summer, I would like to see the Canucks’ forward group completely built.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Hindustan Smyl

[RonMexico]

You are better off to build all facets of a team concurrently rather than piecemeal. In the salary cap world you aren't afforded the luxury of being able to wait for one position to catch up in terms of development. If you wait for a position to catch up, the other gets too far ahead and too expensive and the team is caught chasing it's tail again.

[goalie13]

Until their names are etched on the Cup, I would say that any build is never truly complete.

[DrJockitch]

I agree we need to add a scoring winger or 3.  

The D rebuild started with Hughes, adding in OJ through the year will move it forward as well.

Would like to see some movement out as well.  

If Sutter can get something of value, D prospect or pick, happy to say Bye bye.  Think he will only have any value if can stay healthy at beginning of season and can move him during season.  Ditto for Tanev although he is going into UFA, so value somewhat mitigated.

I am not enthused about UFA D men.  Karlsson is amazing but just not sure right player at right time and a lot of flags, wouldn't be mad to see him come though.  

Stralman looks like a good fit in some ways but again age is an issue.  Myers, I am not as excited as some, decent but I think will cost too much.

I also just don't trust Benning in the UFA market.

[Hindustan Smyl]

27 minutes ago, RonMexico said:

You are better off to build all facets of a team concurrently rather than piecemeal. In the salary cap world you aren't afforded the luxury of being able to wait for one position to catch up in terms of development. If you wait for a position to catch up, the other gets too far ahead and too expensive and the team is caught chasing it's tail again.

Don’t get me wrong.  I completely agree with this.

 

All I’m saying is that our Defensive solutions won’t be available this summer.....as much as we may want it to be.   Lots of good forward options however.

 

Hence - my idea to finish building up the forward group this year.

[timberz21]

42 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

 

2) I’ll save #2 for last here because I know it will be the most controversial and require the most explanation.  Trade our 2019 1st overall to Toronto for William Nylander.   Yes - Nylander will have a 10 million dollar cap hit next year, but that cap hit will go down to below 7 million (6.9ish) after that.   Nylander had an off year this past season due to him having missed training camp, but this guy is a 20+ goal/60+ point producer in the league....and given his age, this could possibly increase.   Nylander has his warts (ie soft perimeter player), but most 2nd line players have warts of some kind.   The key is to play him with players that complement his game (ie Horvat).   The other thing realize with Nylander is this:   

 

That was last year. It's back to 6.9M for 2019-2020.

[Hindustan Smyl]

3 minutes ago, timberz21 said:

That was last year. It's back to 6.9M for 2019-2020.

Perfect!!!

 

Even better for us then.

[timberz21]

6 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Don’t get me wrong.  I completely agree with this.

 

All I’m saying is that our Defensive solutions won’t be available this summer.....as much as we may want it to be.   Lots of good forward options however.

 

Hence - my idea to finish building up the forward group this year.

I understand there is a lot of question marks surrounding this year's crop of defense....however, this is one of the best crop available in recent years.  Might take another 5 years before this much talent becomes available.  It's also not a guarantee that we will be able to build it through the draft.   Hughes will be good, we just don't know yet if he's a 2/3 type of guy or a bonafide #1.

 

With that said, I don't want us to spend blindly either.  I think Benning has to do his due diligence on these guys and draw a line, but I think we need consider it at least.  If it's too much that's fine, we'll pass.

Edited May 28, 2019 by timberz21

[D-Money]

53 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Here is what I would do:

 

1) Go HARD after Dzingel or Duchene to fill the vacancy of top line LW.  My first choice would be Dzingel because he wouldn’t be as expensive.

 

You question the viability of the options available at RD, but then present Dzingel as a viable 1LW?

 

He had 1 point in 9 playoff games. Was a healthy scratch in one of them.

[aliboy]

Edler might not be re-signed, Hutton might not be qualified due to arbitration rights, DP isn't being qualified, that's about $9M right there, so we are going to have to sign some defensemen, but no big salaries such as EK. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[Wanless]

15 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Perfect!!!

 

Even better for us then.

Rather use our 2019 pick to grab one of the RWs in our pick range than get that bum.

[rawkdrummer]

Trade for a forward, draft a D if a good one is available. Thank goodness we’re good down the middle with goaltending and centers

[Fanuck]

2 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

[proposal] The Canucks should finish building their forward group this Summer.   Build Defense Later.

JB has stated publicly numerous times that in his model you build a championship caliber team from goal/defence/center - in that exact order.  He's been very clear on that.  If you look at the final 4 in the playoffs you could say that model is pretty accurate.  Because of this, I'm guessing that JB goes for a defenceman in the draft unless a can't miss forward drops in his lap just like EP did. 

 

Stay the course, build through the draft. 

 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, RonMexico said:

You are better off to build all facets of a team concurrently rather than piecemeal. In the salary cap world you aren't afforded the luxury of being able to wait for one position to catch up in terms of development. If you wait for a position to catch up, the other gets too far ahead and too expensive and the team is caught chasing it's tail again.

this, and also whats to say the free agency situation will be any better for us a year or two from now? 

 

its always easier to get wingers in free agency than anything else, I'd prefer we keep drafting potential top pairing d this year. 

[the grinder]

would you trade boesser or horvat for a 10 th pick?   prolly not  so no to nylander and definitely no to trading our first round pick  , and no Toronto isn't gonna trade wiliie straight across for a 1st round pick and prolly other garbage like schaller granlund that isn't going to happen  ,, learn from toronto mistakes    they have screwed themselves trying to speed up their rebuild  your not going to win playoff games with nylander 

[Hindustan Smyl]

1 hour ago, D-Money said:

You question the viability of the options available at RD, but then present Dzingel as a viable 1LW?

 

He had 1 point in 9 playoff games. Was a healthy scratch in one of them.

I see where you’re coming from, but here are my reasons for wanting Dzingel:

 

1) Despite his playoff struggles, he still netted 26 goals during the regular season.  Since Columbus is much deeper than Vancouver, it’s entirely possible that he didn’t get the opportunities in Columbus that he did in Ottawa where he produced.  Producing for Dzingel shouldn’t be a problem playing alongside Boeser and Pettersson.   It’s possible that Columbus’ system simply wasn’t a fit for Dzingel as opposed to Dzingel being a playoff sieve.  Perhaps he had a hidden injury?

 

2) He’s only 27 years old.  He should be able maintain his current level of play for atleast 4-5 more years.  Signing him for that term would be a reasonably safe bet.

 

3) Cost effective.  Dzingel won’t cost 10+ million like a Panarin would.  Dzingel could be had for relatively cheap.   This could be a factor when the time comes to re-signing Pettersson (in terms of the Canucks attempting to set up an internal cap structure where core players willingly take discounts in order to possibly build a winner).

 

4) The presence of Dzingel allows for guys like Pearson, Roussel, and Baertschi to be in ideal roles (2nd and 3rd roles respectively as opposed to being overburdened on lines that are above their levels).   

 

Dzingel may not be a superstar, but he’s good enough to play alongside Boeser and Pettersson on a top line, while pushing Pearson, Roussel, and Baertschi into more ideal roles for their levels.

 

As far as the defensive options this summer that are available go, I’m just not a fan.

 

1) Karlsson will be very expensive and will put us into Toronto category in terms of blowing up our future cap (ie he got paid so I want to get paid!).  If you pay Karlssson at a premium (which is what it will take to get him to come here), then you can forget about guys like Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, etc., taking discounts of any kind.  Future cap problems galore.  Panarin also fits into this category in my opinion.  Karlsson looks like he’s starting to become a bit injury prone as well.

 

2) As far as Myers and Stralman go, I don’t like the money and term that it would cost us given their age.  Myers is also slow and injury prone.

 

3) Gardiner might be ok in terms of helping our 2nd PP unit but this guy makes a lot errors.....especially when it matters most.

 

Trust me.  I really want to improve our defense as much as the next guy, but the options available this summer aren’t ideal.

 

I’ll have to pull a @Fanuck here and say, “stay the course and build through the draft” as far as the defense goes.   Only thing I’ll add here (as I did earlier) is to track the progress of both Madden and Gaudette this year.  Management can then see if atleast one of these guys can realistically be our future 3rd line scoring center (give Gaudette lots of playing time this year - give him the 3rd line c spot.....move Sutter).   In a year or so (or however long it takes), you can move one of Gaudette or Madden for the right defensive prospect equivalent.

 

 

[Hindustan Smyl]

15 minutes ago, the grinder said:

would you trade boesser or horvat for a 10 th pick?   prolly not  so no to nylander and definitely no to trading our first round pick  , and no Toronto isn't gonna trade wiliie straight across for a 1st round pick and prolly other garbage like schaller granlund that isn't going to happen  ,, learn from toronto mistakes    they have screwed themselves trying to speed up their rebuild  your not going to win playoff games with nylander 

Boeser and Horvat are both worth far more than a 10th.

 

Nylander might not be right now, given the down year he just had (largely due to the fact that he didn’t have a full training camp and joined the team when the rest of the league was in mid season form).

 

That, combined with Toronto’s cap hell, *might* give us a chance at buying Nylander for a relatively low price.

 

I know people on here will be upset with me for suggesting that 10th overall for Nylander would be a “low price,” but take a look at the history of 10th OA draft picks.  Nylander is already better than most of those guys.

 

Given that signing Marner and Kapanen will likely be far bigger priorities for Dubas, I think the 20+goal/60+ point Nylander could be had.  We need a good young RW’er for Bo and I think Nylander would fit that bill.

[HughMungus]

FWDs in good shape.

 

Make or break season for Julevi. Sink or swim bud. We have to move on and get something if not working out.

 

I like adding Pearson,Spooner, Leivo. Lets see who sticks.

 

Hurt that Baer was hurt. played great early. Hope he returns to form.

 

Motte was ok. Not a fan of Schaller. Gaudette needs to keep improving.

 

 

We make our FWDs better by removing Eriksson and Upgrading Sutter.

 

Sign Brandon Tanev 4yrs

Sign Schenn and a depth D (Hainsy) preferebly canadian

 

No to Duchene. See Avs and Sens.

 

Rumours of Pits making moves. Try to pry Hornquist. Maybe Zucker if Min wants.

 

I dont think we should be extreme unless its moving up in the draft for a player JB sees as phenomenal. No foundation pieces please thats built. 

 

Day 2 FA sign a bargain D man

 

 

[HughMungus]

3 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

Boeser and Horvat are both worth far more than a 10th.

 

Nylander might not be right now, given the down year he just had (largely due to the fact that he didn’t have a full training camp and joined the team when the rest of the league was in mid season form).

 

That, combined with Toronto’s cap hell, *might* give us a chance at buying Nylander for a relatively low price.

 

I know people on here will be upset with me for suggesting that 10th overall for Nylander would be a “low price,” but take a look at the history of 10th OA draft picks.  Nylander is already better than most of those guys.

 

Given that signing Marner and Kapanen will likely be far bigger priorities for Dubas, I think the 20+goal/60+ point Nylander could be had.  We need a good young RW’er for Bo and I think Nylander would fit that bill.

Why doesnt Buffalo or Mn another bad team just offer more.

 

Zucker and 12th for Nylander +

[kenhodgejr]

Instead of giving up a first for Nylander we could probably sign Eberle to be a playmaker for Horvat on the second line. Dzingle is interesting option though