the grinder Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said: Boeser and Horvat are both worth far more than a 10th. Nylander might not be right now, given the down year he just had (largely due to the fact that he didn’t have a full training camp and joined the team when the rest of the league was in mid season form). That, combined with Toronto’s cap hell, *might* give us a chance at buying Nylander for a relatively low price. I know people on here will be upset with me for suggesting that 10th overall for Nylander would be a “low price,” but take a look at the history of 10th OA draft picks. Nylander is already better than most of those guys. Given that signing Marner and Kapanen will likely be far bigger priorities for Dubas, I think the 20+goal/60+ point Nylander could be had. We need a good young RW’er for Bo and I think Nylander would fit that bill. so lets see you say Horvat and boesser are worth more than a 10 th pick yet then you say take a look at players taken 10th over all nylander is better than most of those guys right? you know bo was a 10th pick and brock was 25th overall right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Money Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 9 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said: 3) Cost effective. Dzingel won’t cost 10+ million like a Panarin would. Dzingel could be had for relatively cheap. This could be a factor when the time comes to re-signing Pettersson (in terms of the Canucks attempting to set up an internal cap structure where core players willingly take discounts in order to possibly build a winner). ...Dzingel may not be a superstar, but he’s good enough to play alongside Boeser and Pettersson on a top line, while pushing Pearson, Roussel, and Baertschi into more ideal roles for their levels. I disagree with this line of thinking. Dzingel isn't going to be "relatively cheap". He's still going to cost 4 or 5 million, over a decent term. And I don't think he provides much more utility than Pearson, Baertschi, or Roussel. If any of those guys got to play most of the year on the top line with Duchesne, simply because their team had no other option, they'd have 26 goals too (even Roussel!). This just exacerbates the problem this team has - that it ties up too much money in middling players, that don't provide much more than some other depth guy can. I like Roussel, and feel he brings intangibles that justify his salary. But beyond that, if we are paying Dzingel $5M, Pearson $3.75M, and Baertschi $3.37M, that's over $12.1M. Personally, I'd rather pay Panarin $10.5M, and find 2 scrubs to fill the depth roles for close to league minimum. I'd take LW depth chart "A" over "B", and they probably cost around the same: LW Depth Chart A Panarin Roussel Leivo Goldobin LW Depth Chart B Dzingel Baertschi Pearson Roussel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said: Make no mistake about it. 2 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said: Don’t get me wrong. 27 minutes ago, Hindustan Smyl said: Trust me. Hard to argue when you put it that way..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonMexico Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 16 minutes ago, D-Money said: I disagree with this line of thinking. Dzingel isn't going to be "relatively cheap". He's still going to cost 4 or 5 million, over a decent term. And I don't think he provides much more utility than Pearson, Baertschi, or Roussel. If any of those guys got to play most of the year on the top line with Duchesne, simply because their team had no other option, they'd have 26 goals too (even Roussel!). This just exacerbates the problem this team has - that it ties up too much money in middling players, that don't provide much more than some other depth guy can. I like Roussel, and feel he brings intangibles that justify his salary. But beyond that, if we are paying Dzingel $5M, Pearson $3.75M, and Baertschi $3.37M, that's over $12.1M. Personally, I'd rather pay Panarin $10.5M, and find 2 scrubs to fill the depth roles for close to league minimum. I'd take LW depth chart "A" over "B", and they probably cost around the same: LW Depth Chart A Panarin Roussel Leivo Goldobin LW Depth Chart B Dzingel Baertschi Pearson Roussel The loudest detractors don't want to let Benning spend in free agency. So you get these cooked up ideas to spend on cheap, lesser talents and hope for more. Top end skill comes with a high price tag. At this point I would rather spend on Panarin too. Just give him or other expensive FAs the money over trades which cost organizational depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Bad ideas imo. First - there are suitable placeholders - disagree with you entirely about Stralman - that could make a good fit in this UFA group. I agree about the avoiding the general field, but foregoing it entirely is premature imo - moving Gudbranson pretty much dictated that something - at least short term - needs to be done. Second, until Gaudette shows that he's ready to play center at the NHL level, let alone handle harder minutes than the sheltered ones he's played thus far, you don't 'move on' from Sutter unless you're offered something you can't refuse, or have a viable NHL center (in that deal, or free agency) to replace him with in the interim. Third - dealing this year's pick for Nylander? Hard pass on that. If they're dealing that pick, target a principal organization need - which imo Nylander is not. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 Eberle and if possible Lee. Bam our top 6 problem is solved. Eberle is good in all 3 zones, good for 20 goals, and he performs when it matters. He had 9 points in 8 playoff games. He had a down year point wise and for that reason he could be signed 5 years at 5mil. Which is likely what Dzingel will get and personally I feel he isn't better all around and I think his last two seasons were anomalies. He had 4 goals in 21 games with Columbus and 1 goal in 9 games in the playoffs. If Lee makes it to Free Agency (Which I kinda doubt) he adds toughness, goal scoring pedigree, net presence and leadership. He's good in all 3 zones so even though his numbers don't look world breaking he is always effecting the game one way or another. Stick him with Petey and Boeser and watch him light the lamp 30-40 times like he did with Tavares. And even with his more physically demanding play the guy is always good for 75+ games. He's hit 75+ games in each of the last 5 seasons. One or both of these guys bolsters our top 6 a lot and for relatively cheap. Lee is an interesting case. Not a lot of points but he scores rough 30-40 times a year. 28 this season, 40 the season before that, and 34 the season before that. Scored 20+ in 4 of the last 5 seasons. Eberle has scored 20 plus in 5 of his last 6 seasons, last season was 19 so if you wanna round up it's essentially 6 straight seasons for 20ish goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, kenhodgejr said: Instead of giving up a first for Nylander we could probably sign Eberle to be a playmaker for Horvat on the second line. Dzingle is interesting option though Hmmmm......... I actually didn’t think of that. That’s not a bad idea actually. I’m inclined to believe that Eberle would be more likely to sign with a contender than Vancouver, but I wouldn’t mind the Eberle idea at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 1 hour ago, oldnews said: Bad ideas imo. First - there are suitable placeholders - disagree with you entirely about Stralman - that could make a good fit in this UFA group. I agree about the avoiding the general field, but foregoing it entirely is premature imo - moving Gudbranson pretty much dictated that something - at least short term - needs to be done. Second, until Gaudette shows that he's ready to play center at the NHL level, let alone handle harder minutes than the sheltered ones he's played thus far, you don't 'move on' from Sutter unless you're offered something you can't refuse, or have a viable NHL center (in that deal, or free agency) to replace him with in the interim. Third - dealing this year's pick for Nylander? Hard pass on that. If they're dealing that pick, target a principal organization need - which imo Nylander is not. We’ll have to agree to disagree on Stralman (I think he’d be nice to have, but I can’t see him coming to Vancouver on a two year deal) and Nylander (great young asset that can play alongside Bo or EP for years to come), but I will have to admit that you’re right about Sutter. I was walking home right now actually and actually thought my comments on Sutter, and you’re definitely right. I don’t think we can move on from Sutter just yet: 1) We’d still need Sutter for extra insurance Justin Incase Gaudette isn’t ready and just Incase Beagle gets hurt (we’d need an all-situations shut down guy to fill in for Beagle otherwise we’d have to use Bo for that role and we need BoHo more for offensive situations at this stage of his career). 2) Sutter can also fill in on the top 6 on the wings just Incase of injuries. I’d use Sutter on a line with Beagle and Roussel. Roussel-Beagle-Sutter. If Beagle gets hurt, move Sutter back to Center. If Gaudette struggles at C, switch Gaudette and Sutter, or even try Gaudette as a 2nd line RW. If the Canucks are fighting injuries, moving Sutter up to 2nd line RW would also be an option. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, the grinder said: so lets see you say Horvat and boesser are worth more than a 10 th pick yet then you say take a look at players taken 10th over all nylander is better than most of those guys right? you know bo was a 10th pick and brock was 25th overall right ? You make good points (semi-related note - wasn’t BoHo taken 9th?), and you’re definitely right that there are lots of first round gems that can potentially be had, but statistically speaking, guys who are drafted 10th overall (and below) usually do not become as good as William Nylander. Need proof? Have a look at the last 15-20 drafts, see who was selected at #10, and see how they turned out in the NHL.....and how many of those guys ended up being better than how Nylander projects. That’s my point. Could the Canucks pick at #10 and draft the next Erik Karlsson?.......or a guy that would absolutely blow William Nylander out of the Pacific Ocean? Absolutely. Is it statistically likely? I would say no. Edited May 28, 2019 by Hindustan Smyl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, HughMungus said: Why doesnt Buffalo or Mn another bad team just offer more. Zucker and 12th for Nylander + Yeah, I mean they could? I think an offer like that would be an overpayment however. Kudos to those teams (and Toronto) if they make a deal like that. The highest I would offer for Nylander is a 1st. If the Leafs decline the offer, then I look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 28, 2019 Author Share Posted May 28, 2019 2 hours ago, D-Money said: I disagree with this line of thinking. Dzingel isn't going to be "relatively cheap". He's still going to cost 4 or 5 million, over a decent term. And I don't think he provides much more utility than Pearson, Baertschi, or Roussel. If any of those guys got to play most of the year on the top line with Duchesne, simply because their team had no other option, they'd have 26 goals too (even Roussel!). This just exacerbates the problem this team has - that it ties up too much money in middling players, that don't provide much more than some other depth guy can. I like Roussel, and feel he brings intangibles that justify his salary. But beyond that, if we are paying Dzingel $5M, Pearson $3.75M, and Baertschi $3.37M, that's over $12.1M. Personally, I'd rather pay Panarin $10.5M, and find 2 scrubs to fill the depth roles for close to league minimum. I'd take LW depth chart "A" over "B", and they probably cost around the same: LW Depth Chart A Panarin Roussel Leivo Goldobin LW Depth Chart B Dzingel Baertschi Pearson Roussel Thank you for your comments. Just a few things while I fight to stay awake (4:30 am over here in Beijing, lol). 1) 4-5 million for a 26 goal scorer in today’s NHL (cap will likely go to 83 million) would be considered a very good deal. I think Dzingel will get a little bit more than that. You might be right that “Dzingel only scored that many goals because he got the ice-time and played with Duchene,” but it’s not really relevant in my opinion. The only relevant facts that need to be considered here, is that.... 1) This guy can produce 25+ goals on a top line. 2) The presence of someone like Dzingel would allow guys like Pearson and Roussel to flourish in the roles that they are ideally suited for, as opposed to being forced to play on higher lines where they might be a little out of their element. As for your ‘A’ and ‘B’ comparison, my concern with getting a guy like Panarin is that he would likely cost 10 million and above. You would basically be creating a Toronto II situation where no core player would be willing to take any discounts of any kind due to what Tavares got (which ultimately causes massive cap complications which in turn, decreases a teams’ window).. If the last 10 years have proven anything, it’s that cost controlled elite talent + depth >> Expensive core players that take too high a percentage of the cap + minimal investment in depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 I’m actually on board with this in theory but think your going about it the wrong way. Draft the best centre available with our first and sign one of Dzingel or Skinner this summer. Duchene wants to stay in CLB, if for some reason he doesn’t then he’d be ok as well. Sutter, Schaller etc are untradeable. Not going to happen. AG is our third line center of the future, at least for now. NO to Nylander, TO made their bed let them choke on it. Nothing at all wrong with signing a Stralman for a few years, he won’t get much and he will do a better job then everyone but Tanev. Speaking of which trade him for a second rounder and draft another RHD. Same with our second. Next year or the following one make a decision based on how well AG and this years pick and whether or not it makes sense to trade Horvat for a defenseman. Also IF EK wants to come here...sign him instead of Edler. Our LHD will have to sink or swim but if Hughes is as good as Benning thinks he is it won’t make a difference at all, and we can finally close that chapter of the team. Karlsson is one of the fittest athletes in the NHL, I don’t think his demise is nearly as bad as some think it is. It would push the bottom guy out...and when Woo and OJ are ready it will all come together. In this scenario keep Horvat and draft a winger or the best forward available. Benning wants to fix the defense, this doesn’t happen by keeping the old guard, they are injury prone and don’t play enough to make it work. Shake it up... the definition of insanity etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 @Hindustan Smyl I always liked Nylander. Wicked speed & skill. I suspect we wont trade our 1st with the draft here? But I would pay it. And eat his salary. Nylander Pettersson Boeser would be amazing! I also warmed to Duchesne in CBJ's run. Add speeeed to the forward core; give Petey & in particular Hughes an outlet long. Another D by draft with speed to help haul the puck through the middle that just opened. Drafting Soderstrom and signing Duchesne would add a LOT of speed & skill to our line up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonoman Posted May 28, 2019 Share Posted May 28, 2019 (edited) Defense wins games. Edited May 28, 2019 by sonoman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Nylander played like crap in the playoffs. No. Why should we help TO. Their not going to sell cheap either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billabong Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I do agree with the sentiment, our D is not 1 player away from getting much better. It needs an overhaul and we don’t have the assets to replenish that right now. The only way it’s truly gonna get better is drafting more D and be patient What we need is a dumba, ekblad, parayko or to a lesser extent risto and those guys are simply not being shopped for cheap now finding scoring is a little more readily available im on the Kapanen “hope train” I think he’d fit really nicely behind boeser on RW to play with horvat 5years/4.2m offer sheet? Compensation a 2nd rounder? I’d pull the trigger on that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HughMungus Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Its going to be brutal watching our first playoff drubbing These are young players they went up against the best eastern team and possibly the hardest competition they faced to win the cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, billabong said: I do agree with the sentiment, our D is not 1 player away from getting much better. It needs an overhaul and we don’t have the assets to replenish that right now. The only way it’s truly gonna get better is drafting more D and be patient What we need is a dumba, ekblad, parayko or to a lesser extent risto and those guys are simply not being shopped for cheap now finding scoring is a little more readily available im on the Kapanen “hope train” I think he’d fit really nicely behind boeser on RW to play with horvat 5years/4.2m offer sheet? Compensation a 2nd rounder? I’d pull the trigger on that Good thoughts but I think the Leafs would match all offers on Kapanen. Not only would the Leafs match, but the team making the offer would ruin their relationship with Dubas. I know that sounds silly, but the NHL does operate like an old boys clubs at times. Gillis for instance, did himself no favors when he offer-Sheeted David Backes back in the day. Teams making offer sheets run the risk of getting a bad rep around the league. Leafs will match all offers on Kapanen because he will be cheaper than Nylander.....and will very likely be a better hockey player. Edited May 29, 2019 by Hindustan Smyl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 4 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said: Nylander played like crap in the playoffs. No. Why should we help TO. Their not going to sell cheap either. Nylander played like crap the entire year because he didn’t have a training camp. He was behind the 8 ball the entire year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hindustan Smyl Posted May 29, 2019 Author Share Posted May 29, 2019 7 hours ago, sonoman said: Defense wins games. Agreed. I just don’t think the right defensive options/help will be available for us in this off-season. Hence - I think we should 1) Complete the build of our forwards this summer (via Dzingel and Nylander). 2) Place a greater emphasis on drafting dmen in this upcoming draft (BPA obviously), but still.....with more emphasis. 3) Wait for another year to see what dmen will be available (taking age, potential term and cap hit into consideration). 4) Seeing the progression of Madden and Gaudette this year and then trading one of these guys for the right side defensive propsect equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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