Goodbye Hong Kong. Nice knowing you....

[Monty]

Quote

 

Goodbye Hong Kong. Nice knowing you....

[CBH1926]

17 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Again, obfuscation. 
How many German civillians were killed during the invasion of Germany ? Same applies here. US wanted to save its own soldiers and nuked Japanese civillians in the process. It was morally wrong and if the situation is reversed in future, the same Yanks would cry bloody murder. 

German civilian casualties are considered to be in 1-3 million range during the war.

Just during the battle of Berlin, 22 000 civilians died.

 

So if your choice was dropping the atomic bomb or invading and killing millions, what would you choose?

I don’t need philosophical or allegorical answer, bomb or invasion?

[HerrDrFunk]

I’m not choosing a side in the ethical debate but at the time, the US predicted so many casualties from invading Japan that the Purple Hearts produced in anticipation of the operation were thought to still be awarded to soldiers as recently as 2010.

[Ryan Strome]

15 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

I’m not choosing a side in the ethical debate but at the time, the US predicted so many casualties from invading Japan that the Purple Hearts produced in anticipation of the operation were thought to still be awarded to soldiers as recently as 2010.

I'm not one to ever defend US foreign policy but this has always been the question from the war with Japan, bomb or invasion. I think we forget that it's safe to say they didn't totally know what the extent of the damage would be. That being said they knew it would be bad. I don't think the US would ever consider that option again unless facing off against a country with nukes. 

 

Given what we know today I would totally oppose the nuclear attack on Japan but I can understand their reasoning at the time.

[nuckin_futz]

Hong Kong protests could turn more ugly in the hours ahead

Wed 12 Jun 2019 02:35:55 GMT

 

A heads up for those following developments in Hong Kong, where protesters have blocked off roads in response to debate in the parliament on a law to allow extradition to China. 

Police IN HK are now indicating warnings (in the from of displaying red flags) to protesters to desist or force may be deployed.

 

Force in this case is likely to be capsicum spray, batons. 

 

https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/hong-kong-protests-could-turn-more-ugly-in-the-hours-ahead-20190612

 

**********************************

 

HK press cite police fearing protesters arming themselves with bricks, other weapons

Wed 12 Jun 2019 02:55:59 GMT

 

South China Morning Post cite police sources in Hong Kong 

Say the fear protesters are arming themselves with bricks plucked from pavements

• and other weapons

Which was quickly followed by media reports police are now using pepper spray on some protesters. 

 

---

Lets hope peace and democracy prevail in HK. 

 

Map via AFP - main protest areas in red:

https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/hk-press-cite-police-fearing-protesters-arming-themselves-with-bricks-other-weapons-20190612

 

*****************************

 

Hong Kong's government has postponed debate on the extradition bill to an unspecified time

Wed 12 Jun 2019 03:06:08 GMT

 

This might defuse tension for now. 

https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/hong-kongs-government-has-postponed-debate-extradition-bill-to-an-unspecified-time-20190612

 

 

 

[canuckistani]

1 hour ago, CBH1926 said:

German civilian casualties are considered to be in 1-3 million range during the war.

Just during the battle of Berlin, 22 000 civilians died.

 

So if your choice was dropping the atomic bomb or invading and killing millions, what would you choose?

I don’t need philosophical or allegorical answer, bomb or invasion?

invasion. Will never pick cold-blooded murder of civillians as an option. I didn't ask for what the german casualties were through 5 years of fighting,i asked what was it from the day the allies crossed the Rhine frontier in the west. That is the relevance to hiroshima vs invasion. 

[Violator]

2 hours ago, CBH1926 said:

German civilian casualties are considered to be in 1-3 million range during the war.

Just during the battle of Berlin, 22 000 civilians died.

Then the russian rape squads went in after.most people im sure hope they died.

[CBH1926]

6 hours ago, Violator said:

Then the russian rape squads went in after.most people im sure hope they died.

Red Army was rape army. Our troops were mobilized in 1945 when they entered the country. We were on the same side fighting the nazis but that didn't stop them.

[Lancaster]

I do not wish for any death or violence, but it's better that HK really seriously start demanding democracy via protesting.  The noose is ever tightening and the best way to fight it is to start before it starts closing.  

If only they can get the police to stand down or maybe switch sides... that'll really show Beijing.

[Kakanucks]

Police has already used tear gas and plastic bullets on the protesters.

Things are really ugly in Hong Kong right now, I have lots of family and friends in there too.

Hope they are safe.

 

Government refuses to listen, and they're only waiting for orders from PRC.

 

If things escalate, can see another Tiananmen Square incident happening. Watch PRC deny it again.

[Lancaster]

3 minutes ago, Kakanucks said:

Police has already used tear gas and plastic bullets on the protesters.

Things are really ugly in Hong Kong right now, I have lots of family and friends in there too.

Hope they are safe.

 

Government refuses to listen, and they're only waiting for orders from PRC.

 

If things escalate, can see another Tiananmen Square incident happening. Watch PRC deny it again.

It would be near improbable as there are so many foreigners in HK.... plus no restriction on the media, youtube, facebook, etc.

[Rob_Zepp]

14 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

plus no restriction on the media, youtube, facebook, etc.

That can change quickly.....

[Lancaster]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

That can change quickly.....

True, but unless the Chicoms are going to shutoff all communications, kick out all medias and journalists, physically stop citizens and foreign nationals from leaving.... and also prevent consulate diplomats from just looking outside their windows.... there isn't much the Chinese can do to stop the flow of information. 

 

There isn't the culture of self-censorship like in the mainland.  

[Rob_Zepp]

12 minutes ago, Lancaster said:

 

There isn't the culture of self-censorship like in the mainland. 

Not yet......

[Kragar]

1 hour ago, Lancaster said:

I do not wish for any death or violence, but it's better that HK really seriously start demanding democracy via protesting.  The noose is ever tightening and the best way to fight it is to start before it starts closing.  

If only they can get the police to stand down or maybe switch sides... that'll really show Beijing.

Wasn't the window of autonomy only 50 years, after which they could easily have to be absorbed.  I'm not sure at all, but it sounded familiar.

 

Any democracy there was getting on its last legs there come 1997, IMO.  Centralized government, especially authoritarian, would find it hard to allow such a distinct operation like HK continue.  Be interesting to see what that does to their economies

[Tortorella's Rant]

The only ones complaining about the bombs are the ones who didn't have to storm the beaches under a hail of enemy machine gun fire as an alternative choice..

[Gurn]

Back in those days dropping bombs from planes was very inaccurate. Try to hit a power plant and the bombs could/would land miles away, hitting all sorts of other things.

Thus the need to drop hundreds of thousands of tons of the various sizes and shapes. Lot of "collateral damage".

[Rob_Zepp]

https://images.app.goo.gl/YvLexU6Ks7Mqsme57

[CBH1926]

20 hours ago, canuckistani said:

invasion. Will never pick cold-blooded murder of civillians as an option. I didn't ask for what the german casualties were through 5 years of fighting,i asked what was it from the day the allies crossed the Rhine frontier in the west. That is the relevance to hiroshima vs invasion. 

About 50 000 civilians killed in Dresden, Pforzheim, Wurzburg before and after operation Plunder.

Battle of Berlin as many as 125 000 civilians killed, Halbe around 10 000, Breslau 80 000 etc.

 

Now let’s add Soviet advance on the eastern front in 1945 through Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia.

Tens of thousands civilians executed, raped to death, starved, tortured, ran over by tanks etc.

 

Not to mention thousands of civilians that killed themselves before Soviet hordes got ahold of them.

What happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was horrifying, slaughter that took place in Germany in 1945 probably claimed more lives.

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by CBH1926

[Lancaster]

China is already censoring.  Journalist posting pictures of the protest is accused of spreading false rumours.  

Quote

China social media: WeChat and the Surveillance State

By Stephen McDonellBBC News, Beijing

• 7 June 2019

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China's WeChat is a site for social interaction, a form of currency, a dating app, a tool for sporting teams and deliverer of news: Twitter, Facebook, Googlemaps, Tinder and Apple Pay all rolled into one. But it is also an ever more powerful weapon of social control for the Chinese government.

I've just been locked out of WeChat (or Weixin 微信 as it is known in Chinese) and, to get back on, have had to pass through some pretty Orwellian steps - steps which have led others to question why I went along with it.

One reason is that life in Beijing would be extremely difficult without WeChat. The other is that I could not have written this piece without experiencing the stages which have now clearly put my image, and even my voice, on some sort of biometric database of troublemakers.

I was in Hong Kong to cover the enormous candlelight vigil marking 30 years since the People's Liberation Army was ordered to open fire on its own people to remove the mostly student protesters who'd been gathering in and around Tiananmen Square for months in June 1989.

• Taiwanese 'Tank Man' marks Tiananmen
• Leica Tiananmen video angers China

This moment in history has been all but erased from public discourse on mainland China but in Hong Kong, with its special status in the Chinese-speaking world, people turn out every year to remember the bloody crackdown.

This time round the crowd was particularly huge, with estimates ranging up to 180,000.

Naturally I took photos of the sea of people holding candles and singing, and posted some of these on my WeChat "moments".

 

Media captionTiananmen's tank man: The image that China forgot

The post contained no words - just photos.

Chinese friends started asking on WeChat what the event was? Why were people gathering? Where was it?

That such questions were coming from young professionals here shows the extent to which knowledge of Tiananmen 1989 has been made to disappear in China.

I answered a few of them, rather cryptically, then suddenly I was locked out of WeChat.

"Your login has been declined due to account exceptions. Try to log in again and proceed as instructed," came the message on the screen.

Then, when I tried to log back in, a new message appeared: "This WeChat account has been suspected of spreading malicious rumours and has been temporarily blocked…"

It seems posting photos of an actual event taking place, without commentary, amounts to "spreading malicious rumours" in China.

I was given time to try and log in again the next day after my penalty had been served.

When I did I had to push "agree and unblock" under the stated reason of "spread malicious rumours".

So this rumour-monger clicked on "agree".

Then came a stage I was not prepared for. "Faceprint is required for security purposes," it said.

I was instructed to hold my phone up - to "face front camera straight on" - looking directly at the image of a human head. Then told to "Read numbers aloud in Mandarin Chinese".

My voice was captured by the App at the same time it scanned my face.

Afterwards a big green tick: "Approved"

Apart from being creepy you can only imagine the potential use of this type of data.

No doubt I have now joined some list of suspicious individuals in the hands of goodness knows which Chinese government agencies.

In China pretty much everyone has WeChat. I don't know a single person without it. Developed by tech giant Tencent it is an incredible app. It's convenient. It works. It's fun. It was ahead of the game on the global stage and it has found its way into all corners of people's existence.

It could deliver to the Communist Party a life map of pretty much everybody in this country, citizens and foreigners alike.

Capturing the face and voice image of everyone who was suspended for mentioning the Tiananmen crackdown anniversary in recent days would be considered very useful for those who want to monitor anyone who might potentially cause problems.

When I placed details of this entire process on Twitter others were asking: why cave in to such a Big Brother intrusion on your privacy?

They've probably not lived in China.

It is hard to imagine a life here without it.

• Are you one of the WeChat billion?
• Students graded on number of 'friends'

When you meet somebody in a work context they don't given you a name card any more, they share their WeChat; if you play for a football team training details are on WeChat; children's school arrangements, WeChat; Tinder-style dates, WeChat; movie tickets, WeChat; news stream, WeChat; restaurant locations, WeChat; paying for absolutely everything from a bowl of noodles to clothes to a dining room table… WeChat.

People wouldn't be able to speak to their friends or family without it.

So the censors who can lock you out of Wechat hold real power over you.

The app - thought by Western intelligence agencies to be the least secure of its type in the world - has essentially got you over a barrel.

If you want to have a normal life in China, you had better not say anything controversial about the Communist Party and especially not about its leader, Xi Jinping.

This is China 2019.
 

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by Lancaster