King Heffy Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Timråfan said: So how come he is producing top 6 here if all of his team mates are better than him? He isn't producing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, King Heffy said: He isn't producing. Pointwise he is fifth... And one of the best in PK. Strange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, oldnews said: Well I consider a powerplay to be when the opposition ices the puck, with their 3rd pairing on the ice, and, for example, Alain Vigneault sends out the Sedins for an ozone start against tired, lower quality opponents. "Sheltered" actually means something in hockey. It refers to a coach avoiding exposing, usually young players, to situations that are not advantageous to their success - in other words, they seek to avoid hard matchups, they give them high ozone starts, and they typically play them with veteran support. Ie. you take an inexperienced Cody Hodgson - not a paticularly good or developed defensive center - you give him high ozone starts, you put Higgins and Hansen on his wings, and you have the Sedin, Kesler and Malhotra lines to eat the hard minutes. AV thereby "shelters" Cody Hodgson, with as 'easy'/opportune minutes as he can provide. It has literally nothing to do with playing a player when the outcome is already determined. By your definition Jake Virtanen was not sheltered or played shelter minutes with us, in his first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariyaSakicAnderson Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Timråfan said: So what are the stats regarding pk in Vancouver? Who is better or worse than Loui? 1 hour ago, GhostsOf1994 said: Basically anyone not named petey, hughes or brock are better or as good on the PK that bring +++ to the team aside from being decent on the pk. Beagle, Horvat, Miller, Pearson, Ferlund, Motte, Sutter. Add in Leivo, Virtanen and even baer. Eriksson has played himself off this team and likely the NHL I'm not a big fan of analytics or advanced stats but the site "hockey reference" has all the info that people may need, I've attached a link to the Canucks page basically LE was the third best PKer for all who averaged over a minute per game, only Stech and oddly Hutton where better. On the opposite end he was one of the worse on the PP that played on average over a min/game. LE had one of the lowest Ozone starts of players that played at least 50 games, he started at least 2/3 of his shifts in the dZone. He was about middle of the pack on the canucks in all advanced stat ratings, ie: Corsi, Fenwick Pdo.. he actually wasn't that bad.. so saying that he doesn't have any value or is not a NHL player is a little off. I'm not a fan of LE at all during his career, but he is useful. https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/VAN/2019.html Skater Time on Ice Statistics Even Strength Power Play Short Handed Rk Player Pos Shift GP TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 1 Adam Gaudette C 0:35 56 9:34 -2.4 1:22 -5.2 0:00 2 Alex Biega D 0:43 41 16:54 2.6 0:04 -12.2 0:41 5.9 3 Alexander Edler D 0:46 56 18:47 0.7 3:07 1.0 2:39 -6.1 4 Antoine Roussel LW 0:26 65 12:49 0.8 0:03 -27.4 0:52 2.0 5 Ashton Sautner D 0:36 17 14:18 -2.8 0:00 0:13 -15.0 6 Ben Hutton D 0:35 69 18:12 -2.7 1:51 2.4 2:17 5.4 7 Bo Horvat C 0:41 82 16:56 2.5 3:26 2.7 0:27 -1.3 8 Brandon Sutter C/RW 0:47 26 13:26 -6.4 0:54 7.5 3:07 -1.0 9 Brendan Gaunce C 0:35 3 7:36 4.5 0:00 0:00 10 Brendan Leipsic LW 0:33 17 10:33 -1.1 2:16 -2.6 0:00 11 Brock Boeser RW 0:44 69 15:35 5.4 3:32 6.0 0:01 35.3 12 Brogan Rafferty D 0:40 2 13:21 19.6 0:00 0:00 13 Chris Tanev D 0:46 55 16:46 -5.0 0:07 -19.5 3:16 -4.1 14 Darren Archibald RW 0:29 9 7:38 -10.0 0:00 0:00 15 Derrick Pouliot D 0:37 62 15:53 2.9 1:09 -1.6 0:06 -14.7 16 Elias Pettersson C 0:34 71 14:34 4.3 3:34 0.4 0:03 45.8 17 Erik Gudbranson D 0:41 57 15:45 -7.4 0:02 14.0 2:11 -2.1 18 Guillaume Brisebois D 0:37 8 10:58 0.4 0:02 0:00 19 Jake Virtanen RW 0:42 70 13:33 -0.2 1:14 5.1 0:01 53.4 20 Jay Beagle RW/C 0:36 57 10:56 -9.3 0:02 13.8 2:40 -0.4 Even Strength Power Play Short Handed Rk Player Pos Shift GP TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 21 Josh Leivo LW 0:50 49 13:20 7.6 2:36 4.7 0:00 22 Josh Teves D 0:48 1 13:40 -13.4 0:00 0:00 23 Loui Eriksson LW 0:28 81 11:36 -1.4 1:16 -3.7 1:11 4.7 24 Luke Schenn D 0:37 18 13:26 -2.0 0:00 1:18 -5.6 25 Markus Granlund C 0:42 77 11:03 0.5 1:34 0.4 2:24 1.9 26 Michael Del Zotto D 0:46 23 15:28 4.2 0:06 -37.6 2:21 0.6 27 Nikolay Goldobin LW 0:29 63 12:23 2.9 2:33 -9.9 0:02 35.2 28 Quinn Hughes D 0:42 5 16:48 13.0 1:16 2.4 0:00 29 Reid Boucher C 0:32 1 5:28 5.2 0:00 0:00 30 Ryan Spooner C 0:45 11 12:17 -1.4 1:18 4.0 0:00 31 Sam Gagner C 0:45 7 14:47 15.2 3:13 -1.2 0:06 -17.2 32 Sven Baertschi LW 0:44 26 12:08 -0.2 2:59 3.3 0:01 -12.3 33 Tanner Pearson LW 0:45 19 13:46 0.5 1:39 -6.1 1:01 -0.6 34 Tim Schaller LW 0:30 47 9:18 -2.1 0:01 1:20 -0.7 35 Troy Stecher D 0:45 78 17:35 3.6 0:52 -3.3 1:26 5.1 36 Tyler Motte C 0:42 74 11:01 -6.4 0:02 13.2 1:42 -1.2 37 Zack MacEwen C 0:39 4 6:28 -2.0 0:40 12.5 0:02 More 2018-19 Canucks Pages Edited July 24, 2019 by KariyaSakicAnderson 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariyaSakicAnderson Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 21 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said: Shocking that Loui is not on there...yet a good sign for JB to try to trade this lump. I think there is a good chance, it's just that the Canucks may have to wait until the majority of the teams have their rosters in place as a lot teams after they sign their fa's will be near the cap.. I think the most likely scenario is that one or two other players are moved this year, then next year mid July he will be moved after is bonus is paid. I believe that next years cap with increase more than the 2 mill it didn't this year and a team or three will be interested in his services 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said: Here are the fewest hits/season, filtered for 81 games or more, since the NHL started keeping real time stats (hits, etc): Loui’s definitely up there, but he’s also in some pretty decent company (Gretzky, Jagr, Francis, Naslund, etc). Tyler Arnason (whoever that is) was a real animal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarcore Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 hours ago, Borvat said: Lidstrom and Neidermayer both hit and blocked shots. Eriksson does play well with his stick as the Takeaway vs Giveaway stat indicates. But for a forward who needs to separate people from the puck his lack of contact is pretty apathetic. To me it either points to lack of effort or engagement. I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I just don't admire his style of game I guess. Lidstrom: This is at an age when almost all players have retired. Earlier stats are not available that I can find. Niedermayer: Only had stats applicable for last 3 years of play. Niedermayer was tireless look at the ATOI. Eriksson: Most recent 3 years for comparison. Related in the sense of how some are lauding his "defensive" style/prowess of play. Yes they got hits but lets not act like it was what made them who they are. I am no fan of Loui's play but hits aren't everything. Only 3 is laughably low though... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontaylorforprez Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Every time I log in, I am disappointed because I’m really hoping to see the “retirement” or “finally traded” headline.. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 hours ago, GhostsOf1994 said: I got those at work ! Hahahaha. I got in trouble for handing them out Netflix decided to create a policy that a worker cannot look at another worker for more than 5 seconds. As far as I know it didn’t stick. But we’re there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, KariyaSakicAnderson said: I'm not a big fan of analytics or advanced stats but the site "hockey reference" has all the info that people may need, I've attached a link to the Canucks page basically LE was the third best PKer for all who averaged over a minute per game, only Stech and oddly Hutton where better. On the opposite end he was one of the worse on the PP that played on average over a min/game. LE had one of the lowest Ozone starts of players that played at least 50 games, he started at least 2/3 of his shifts in the dZone. He was about middle of the pack on the canucks in all advanced stat ratings, ie: Corsi, Fenwick Pdo.. he actually wasn't that bad.. so saying that he doesn't have any value or is not a NHL player is a little off. I'm not a fan of LE at all during his career, but he is useful. https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/VAN/2019.html Skater Time on Ice Statistics Even Strength Power Play Short Handed Rk Player Pos Shift GP TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 1 Adam Gaudette C 0:35 56 9:34 -2.4 1:22 -5.2 0:00 2 Alex Biega D 0:43 41 16:54 2.6 0:04 -12.2 0:41 5.9 3 Alexander Edler D 0:46 56 18:47 0.7 3:07 1.0 2:39 -6.1 4 Antoine Roussel LW 0:26 65 12:49 0.8 0:03 -27.4 0:52 2.0 5 Ashton Sautner D 0:36 17 14:18 -2.8 0:00 0:13 -15.0 6 Ben Hutton D 0:35 69 18:12 -2.7 1:51 2.4 2:17 5.4 7 Bo Horvat C 0:41 82 16:56 2.5 3:26 2.7 0:27 -1.3 8 Brandon Sutter C/RW 0:47 26 13:26 -6.4 0:54 7.5 3:07 -1.0 9 Brendan Gaunce C 0:35 3 7:36 4.5 0:00 0:00 10 Brendan Leipsic LW 0:33 17 10:33 -1.1 2:16 -2.6 0:00 11 Brock Boeser RW 0:44 69 15:35 5.4 3:32 6.0 0:01 35.3 12 Brogan Rafferty D 0:40 2 13:21 19.6 0:00 0:00 13 Chris Tanev D 0:46 55 16:46 -5.0 0:07 -19.5 3:16 -4.1 14 Darren Archibald RW 0:29 9 7:38 -10.0 0:00 0:00 15 Derrick Pouliot D 0:37 62 15:53 2.9 1:09 -1.6 0:06 -14.7 16 Elias Pettersson C 0:34 71 14:34 4.3 3:34 0.4 0:03 45.8 17 Erik Gudbranson D 0:41 57 15:45 -7.4 0:02 14.0 2:11 -2.1 18 Guillaume Brisebois D 0:37 8 10:58 0.4 0:02 0:00 19 Jake Virtanen RW 0:42 70 13:33 -0.2 1:14 5.1 0:01 53.4 20 Jay Beagle RW/C 0:36 57 10:56 -9.3 0:02 13.8 2:40 -0.4 Even Strength Power Play Short Handed Rk Player Pos Shift GP TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 TOI CF% Rel GF/60 GA/60 21 Josh Leivo LW 0:50 49 13:20 7.6 2:36 4.7 0:00 22 Josh Teves D 0:48 1 13:40 -13.4 0:00 0:00 23 Loui Eriksson LW 0:28 81 11:36 -1.4 1:16 -3.7 1:11 4.7 24 Luke Schenn D 0:37 18 13:26 -2.0 0:00 1:18 -5.6 25 Markus Granlund C 0:42 77 11:03 0.5 1:34 0.4 2:24 1.9 26 Michael Del Zotto D 0:46 23 15:28 4.2 0:06 -37.6 2:21 0.6 27 Nikolay Goldobin LW 0:29 63 12:23 2.9 2:33 -9.9 0:02 35.2 28 Quinn Hughes D 0:42 5 16:48 13.0 1:16 2.4 0:00 29 Reid Boucher C 0:32 1 5:28 5.2 0:00 0:00 30 Ryan Spooner C 0:45 11 12:17 -1.4 1:18 4.0 0:00 31 Sam Gagner C 0:45 7 14:47 15.2 3:13 -1.2 0:06 -17.2 32 Sven Baertschi LW 0:44 26 12:08 -0.2 2:59 3.3 0:01 -12.3 33 Tanner Pearson LW 0:45 19 13:46 0.5 1:39 -6.1 1:01 -0.6 34 Tim Schaller LW 0:30 47 9:18 -2.1 0:01 1:20 -0.7 35 Troy Stecher D 0:45 78 17:35 3.6 0:52 -3.3 1:26 5.1 36 Tyler Motte C 0:42 74 11:01 -6.4 0:02 13.2 1:42 -1.2 37 Zack MacEwen C 0:39 4 6:28 -2.0 0:40 12.5 0:02 More 2018-19 Canucks Pages Analytics can burn in hell, about as useful as +/- Never tells the whole story, maybe with more refining it will get better. The point i am making about Eriksson is that he was brought in for offense, not PK. With all the changes made since he signed he still has not produced points. Even since last years opening roster, Leipsic, likely goldy, gagme, archie, granlund, delzotto, gudbranson, pouliot, hutton and gaunce the canucks will be better with or without loui. If he didnt do well on the pk he would have been in the pressbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Ghost Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said: Analytics can burn in hell, about as useful as +/- Never tells the whole story, maybe with more refining it will get better. The point i am making about Eriksson is that he was brought in for offense, not PK. With all the changes made since he signed he still has not produced points. Even since last years opening roster, Leipsic, likely goldy, gagme, archie, granlund, delzotto, gudbranson, pouliot, hutton and gaunce the canucks will be better with or without loui. If he didnt do well on the pk he would have been in the pressbox. Analytics are far from perfect and still have a ways to go. Just because they dont support someone's theory doesnt mean they are useless. Plus minus is a truly useless individual stat. Now the argument has changed from he has no value to "well, if he didnt have pk value he would have no value". The reality he is not as bad a player asbpeople are suggesting. Still paid too much and needs to be traded. But those numbers are actually pretty useful to at least paint a bit of a different picture. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, shiznak said: By your definition Jake Virtanen was not sheltered or played shelter minutes with us, in his first season. It's not 'my definition' - it is what is meant in hockey when people refer to young players being 'sheltered'. Not all young players are sheltered - or require, sheltering - there are obvious outliers and exceptions. It has a lot to do with how developed their two way game is, how capable they are of handling more challenging situations and/or the intent of their coach(es). Virtanen has scarcely been sheltered in his young career - and even less so the past few years. He's been in the 45% ozone start range, while tending to play on shutdown units with Sutter (when Sutter is healthy). So while he is paired with a solid veteran - one aspect of sheltering - both his situational use / dzone starts and quality of competition / matchups indicate a player that is in fact not 'sheltered'. Part of that, imo is Green's intent to develop a complete player - which is also part of the reason Virtanen's offensive production isn't quite what some people would hope (his minutes haven't always been conducive to production) but on the other hand, he is developing his game without the puck, and that will serve him - and production - in due course. Personally I think Green has walked a really fine, intelligent line with Virtanen and Virtanen appears to have really bought in and embraced what Green is doing with his development. Likewise, Horvat was never really sheltered in his young career - came in as a relatively developed two way player. Young Canucks that are sheltered = guys like Hughes, Goldobin, Gaudette - something that fades out if/when/as they develop. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said: I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but people have felt free. Eriksson’s contract hasn’t really provided a whole lot of positive value in the time he’s been here. To try to spin it to see solely positive value, while commendable, is merely an exercise is tiptoeing past his clear deficiencies. His penalty killing was decent but the team on a whole was quite solid in that department. In the end though, this breaks down to Eriksson not being a player worthy of his contract. I doubt you'd get an argument from anyone about that. However, it's really irrelevant, ATM, what his contract is worth, in relation to his play. He is here, he's going to be extremely difficult to move, and they don't, truly, "need" to move him yet. He might not be an integral part of the team, but he's not a liability either, no matter how much hate people want to spew at him. I'd bet my bottom dollar his coach and teammates couldn't care less what his contract is, or what he said in some Swedish interview.........JB certainly didn't think it was a big deal. Hopefully JB can find him a new start, but I'm expecting to see him in Van come Oct. Edited July 24, 2019 by stawns 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 38 minutes ago, oldnews said: It's not 'my definition' - it is what is meant in hockey when people refer to young players being 'sheltered'. Not all young players are sheltered - or require, sheltering - there are obvious outliers and exceptions. It has a lot to do with how developed their two way game is, how capable they are of handling more challenging situations and/or the intent of their coach(es). Virtanen has scarcely been sheltered in his young career - and even less so the past few years. He's been in the 45% ozone start range, while tending to play on shutdown units with Sutter (when Sutter is healthy). So while he is paired with a solid veteran - one aspect of sheltering - both his situational use / dzone starts and quality of competition / matchups indicate a player that is in fact not 'sheltered'. Part of that, imo is Green's intent to develop a complete player - which is also part of the reason Virtanen's offensive production isn't quite what some people would hope (his minutes haven't always been conducive to production) but on the other hand, he is developing his game without the puck, and that will serve him - and production - in due course. Personally I think Green has walked a really fine, intelligent line with Virtanen and Virtanen appears to have really bought in and embraced what Green is doing with his development. Likewise, Horvat was never really sheltered in his young career - came in as a relatively developed two way player. Young Canucks that are sheltered = guys like Hughes, Goldobin, Gaudette - something that fades out if/when/as they develop. By developing his game the way he has, TG has pretty much paved a path to long career for Jake going fwd. He might never be the scorer he could have been had they given him those kinds of mins, but he will be the kind of player that will always find a place somewhere in the league. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, GhostsOf1994 said: With all the changes made since he signed he still has not produced points. Even since last years opening roster, Leipsic, likely goldy, gagme, archie, granlund, delzotto, gudbranson, pouliot, hutton and gaunce the canucks will be better with or without loui. If he didnt do well on the pk he would have been in the pressbox. So why did he produce fifth in forwards and sixth in total regarding points. Sure, he didn't do as good as Boeser/Petey but regarding how Green use the team and compared with his team mates he did quite well. Especially since he played a defensive role most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanSeanBean Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Timråfan said: So why did he produce fifth in forwards and sixth in total regarding points. Sure, he didn't do as good as Boeser/Petey but regarding how Green use the team and compared with his team mates he did quite well. Especially since he played a defensive role most of the time. No. He did not. He has been a completely and utter disappointment since joining this team. I don't think anyone in the media, organization, I don't think he himself would even disagree with that statement. You are literally the only person I have ever heard try to argue that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 21 minutes ago, shayster007 said: No. He did not. He has been a completely and utter disappointment since joining this team. I don't think anyone in the media, organization, I don't think he himself would even disagree with that statement. You are literally the only person I have ever heard try to argue that. Before the interviewhe as valued around 3 mill. do you only have the 6 mill in your head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 How bad were the canucks last year? Add in injuries too. Petey brock horvat miller ferland pearson baer Virtanen will all out produce loui from last year. He had all the chances in the world and did squat. If sutter can stay healthy 15G+, motte should be 10+ same with roussel albeit missing a major part of season. Loui was defensive forward because he sucked !%@ offensively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said: Loui was defensive forward because he sucked !%@ offensively. And yet fifth forward in points... Isn't it amazing with all his defensive work. your argument is that Loui sucks... So why wasn't he producing like a 4th liner? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Timråfan said: And yet fifth forward in points... Isn't it amazing with all his defensive work. your argument is that Loui sucks... So why wasn't he producing like a 4th liner? Because he was gifted top 6 minutes and didn't produce, so he was deployed 3rd or 4th line, if a scorer is not scoring he better be able to play bottom 6 and PK, again which many new and current canucks are better then loui. Eriksson had 29 points 16 of those points came in 6 games spread over the season. 9 of those 16 points came against Ottawa, Florida and Buffalo over 3 games. Loui went 7, 8, 10 and 14 games without a point for 39 games, also smaller scoring slumps. So Eriksson with 81gp - 6 games = 75 games where he scored 13 points. 78 games he scored 20 points, is that not 4th liner or AHL fodder? Roussel was on 40p pace over 82 games. Goldobin was on pace for 35p over 82 Games. Motte was on pace for 20ish over 82Games. Baer was on pace for 45-50 over 82games Pearson was on pace for 50 points over 82 games, after trade to van. Ferland 40-50 over 82 games. Miller 47 points in 75 games as a 3rd liner in Tampa, should improve on that total. Boeser will be 70+ points if he plays 82 Pettersson 80+ Horvat 60-70+ Leivo since trade on pace for 30 Virtanen On pace for 35 over 82, should improve. Sutter 30-40 if he stays healthy with better linemates. Beagle 20-25. Who does loui out perform? Ferland Petey Boeser Miller Horvat Pearson Baer Sutter Virtanen Roussel/motte Beagle Leivo Goldobin Eriksson, in the AHL where he belongs. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts