[Poll] Jim Benning

[189lb enforcers?]

Just now, cuporbust said:

Personally i couldnt care less how much they spent.  They were also one of the most injury riddled teams in canuck history during that time which made a huge difference.  They litterally set injury records. If the owner was willing to spend the money,  and injuries played a massive role in the outcome , why does that matter ?

Cost and pattern/predicable injures are both manageable. 

You must agree, in principle?

 

What’s the over-under on the odds of Tanev and other notable IR mainstays getting injured, again? I asked this last summer too. I doubt the answer changes here. 

[kanucks25]

9 hours ago, spook007 said:

All the expensive third and forth liners you mentioned, are they holding back Bennings ability to pay EP, Boeser or QH?  By the time EP and QH's next contracts are to be signed, a mix of Sutter, Baertschi, Pearson, Spooner, Leivo, Schaller, Hutton, Edler, Tanev and god knows who else will be off the books, with Rousell and Beagle the year after...

The problem with this thought process is the notion that cap space and flexibility aren't important during a rebuild/when you aren't winning. It's simply not true and an extremely shortsighted, uninspired way of thinking.

 

If you're not stockpiling assets during a rebuild when you're supposed to have a ton of flexibility with no expectations of winning, when are you going to? When all your top-10 picks are ready for their next contracts that are going to pay them 8-12M per year each and your fanbase is running out of patience? Good luck with that.

 

Bleeding assets and not using your cap space to acquire more is unacceptable at any part of the organizational cycle, but it can be expected at times when teams are trying to go all in for it. We're not at that stage and definitely weren't anywhere close during Benning's first 2-3 years here.

 

Finishing at the bottom of the standings every year and picking stars with top-10 picks isn't enough to separate yourself from the pack, it's just the bare minimum. This management team has done nothing creative or out-of-the-box to give themselves an edge.

Edited June 29, 2019 by kanucks25

[kanucks25]

23 hours ago, Josepho said:

He'd have to develop superior negotiation skills, a sense of asset management, a better pro-scouting record and a different attitude towards the salary structure of this team. Don't really know what you mean by "realistic".

 

Benning has consistently bled value in all of his transactions. And, though most of them aren't a huge deal in a vacuum, they add up.

 

A 5th for Philip Larsen = Not good, but tolerable in isolation.

A 2nd, Jared McCann, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, Forsling for Pedan, Larsen, Clendening, Gudbranson and Pouliot = bleeding value, value that could've been used in so many other places. I'm not sure any other GM in the history has displayed this kind of track record with acquiring defencemen.

 

Obviously, this is all reflective of his lack of negotiation skills as well. There are multiple pieces of potential evidence supporting the idea that he can't negotiate below.

 

*snip*

 

17 hours ago, Josepho said:

This is a discussion board and I'm more than willing to hear everything you have to say about what I've said.

I understand that these players have an alleged purpose -- they simply aren't very good at fulfilling these purposes. If a plumber was hired to unclog your sink and all he did was loosen the piping, do you think you're going to be happy with him or the person who brought in the plumber?

 

Erik Gudbranson was an abomination of a hockey player who did absolutely nothing to contribute to the teams' success, the fact that he was physical was clearly a bad thing to prioritize and this falls on Benning. As I'm about to show below, the entire team spent more time in the offensive zone and scoring when 44 wasn't on the ice.

 

*snip*

If you keep putting this much sound logic and arguments into your posts and back it up with sources, you're never going to get any debate.

 

When you break it down as clearly as you do there's no real rebuttal and they're just going to run

[cuporbust]

3 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Cost and pattern/predicable injures are both manageable. 

You must agree, in principle?

 

What’s the over-under on the odds of Tanev and other notable IR mainstays getting injured, again? I asked this last summer too. I doubt the answer changes here. 

Well, one key example is Brandon Sutter.  In the 5 seasons before sutter got here , 4 of those he playes 80 games or more a year. How was Benning supposed to see his injury history coming exactly? 

[kanucks25]

Just now, cuporbust said:

Well, one key example is Brandon Sutter.  In the 5 seasons before sutter got here , 4 of those he playes 80 games or more a year. How was Benning supposed to see his injury history coming exactly? 

Or just don't away a good player for a not as good player. And especially don't downgrade a pick on top of that.

 

The thing about the Sutter and Gudbranson trades in particular is that the "well you can't predict injuries" excuse doesn't really work when anybody who watched these players play at all or even just followed their stats would know they just aren't good players. Then, you wonder, who the hell is responsible for the pro scouting in the organization, and how they still have a job.

[cuporbust]

10 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Cost and pattern/predicable injures are both manageable. 

You must agree, in principle?

 

What’s the over-under on the odds of Tanev and other notable IR mainstays getting injured, again? I asked this last summer too. I doubt the answer changes here. 

He was supposed to be able to predict he would lose Sven to a head hit and post concussion syndrome? Markstrom would get injured in the skills competition? Virtanen would fracture a rib ? Stetcher to a concussion? Roussel to a freak knee injury?  Common man. U are blaming Benning as if he should have seen these injuries coming ? 

[Honky Cat]

10 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

The problem with this thought process is the notion that cap space and flexibility aren't important during a rebuild/when you aren't winning. It's simply not true and an extremely shortsighted, uninspired way of thinking.

 

If you're not stockpiling assets during a rebuild when you're supposed to have a ton of flexibility with no expectations of winning, when are you going to? When all your top-10 picks are ready for their next contracts that are going to pay them 8-12M per year each and your fanbase is running out of patience? Good luck with that.

 

Bleeding assets and not using your cap space to acquire more is unacceptable at any part of the organizational cycle, but it can be expected at times when teams are trying to go all in for it. We're not at that stage and definitely weren't anywhere close during Benning's first 2-3 years here.

 

Finishing at the bottom of the standings every year and picking stars with top-10 picks isn't enough to separate yourself from the pack, it's just the bare minimum. This management team has done nothing creative or out-of-the-box to give themselves an edge.

Obviously Pro scouting has been somewhat poor, but I still believe that amateur scouting is the most imperative quality in a rebuilding team..Picking a player like Elias Pettersson is 'enough' to change everything...That pick alone has changed the way the Canucks are perceived (not here, but elsewhere in the league).

[Honky Cat]

delete

Edited June 29, 2019 by Honky Cat

[cuporbust]

5 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Or just don't away a good player for a not as good player. And especially don't downgrade a pick on top of that.

 

The thing about the Sutter and Gudbranson trades in particular is that the "well you can't predict injuries" excuse doesn't really work when anybody who watched these players play at all or even just followed their stats would know they just aren't good players. Then, you wonder, who the hell is responsible for the pro scouting in the organization, and how they still have a job.

Bonino? Lol. He may have played better elsewhere , but he was Terrible here . There is absolutely zero doubt if sutter had been healthy, there would be zero debate.  I hated Bonino. 

[Josepho]

7 minutes ago, cuporbust said:

Bonino? Lol. He may have played better elsewhere , but he was Terrible here . There is absolutely zero doubt if sutter had been healthy, there would be zero debate.  I hated Bonino. 

Aside from the fact that Bonino was significantly cheaper, he also produced at a higher p/g here than Sutter has in his entire career other than one season.

 

His 5v5 P/60 of 2.02 in 2014-2015 was on par with players like Nathan MacKinnon, Chris Kreider, Blake Wheeler, Nick Backstrom, Marian Hossa and Pavel Datsyuk.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Josepho

[Pure961089]

On 6/25/2019 at 10:38 PM, Tomatoes11 said:

Copy and pasted from another thread but applies here as well. Totally against this regime. It’s has been ran really really bad for the past 5 years and the miller overpayment doesn’t do anything to alleviate my fears. This team isn’t winning jack until he is gone. 

 

I don’t see how people can defend him. Going into our 6th season. We made the playoffs once and a grand total of 0 of his trades will have any bearing on our 6th season and whether or not we make the playoffs or not.

 

clendenning, Bonino, Sbisa, Prust, Leipsic, Vey, Dowd, Poulliot, Baertschi, gudbranson, Granlund , Dorsett, motte, etc will have basically no role in our success of the 6th season. So Benning has been basically spinning his wheels and chasing his tail like a dog for 5 years. How anyone can defend trading high 2nd rnd picks and 3rd rnd picks and much younger prospects for that stuff is beyond me. I know for sure that a few of those picks, or in the very least Mcaan, would contribute to our 6th season and beyond.

 

Just to put things into perspective. We basically traded...

 

Mcaan, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd,2nd, 3rd, and a conditional 1st with not much of condition for Pearson, Vey, Dorsett, Baertschi, and Miller.  Sorry, but that’s terrible asset management. If baerschit goes on LTI like he might, even worse.

1. Benning inherited a team with an empty prospect pool.  Gillis screwed Benning in more ways that one, the Luongo contract just being one example.  All his contracts had no trade or no move clauses.  Benning had to be extremely creative to get anything for the players that he traded. Often limited to only a hand full of teams,  Thank you Gillis.  

 

2. His drafting has been impeccable, the only 2 you can call as misses have mitigating circumstances with them.  OJ has been injured a lot, not Benning’s fault.  And Virtanen potential still hasn’t been reached.  Only 22 and has 20 goal seasons in his future.  

 

3. The ufa’s he’s signed have been hit and miss but nobody could foresee how LE would play here after putting up great numbers in Boston and Dallas.  We had just made the playoffs and Benning thought LE was the missing piece to play with the Sedins.  Nobody can blame Benning for making one last push.  Benning made 3 signings last year, Schaller being the only miss, the other 2, Rousseau and Beagle add an element of grit the Canucks don’t have.  And the Miller trade was great.  If we don’t make the playoffs we still get our pick, but if we make the playoffs will anyone care we gave up a late 1st round draft pick?  Meanwhile we get a top 6 gritty forward with a very friendly cap hit.  

 

You have to ask yourself how long must the Canucks be in a rebuild?  I really think some Canuck fans are so used to losing that they have become content with their misery.    The easiest decisions to criticize are the ones YOU don’t have to make. 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Pure961089

[ItTakesAnArmy]

3 hours ago, Googlie said:

From the noise on the boards I'd have thought 50:50.

But it's the same handful of guys posting the same thing in different words 5 times every ten minutes that create the noise

I am actually amazed it is 10: 1

But it's the same handful of guys posting the same thing with 5 different avatars that create the fantasy

[6string]

4 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

But it's the same handful of guys posting the same thing with 5 different avatars that create the fantasy

List the possible names...

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, 6string said:

List the possible names...

Alflives

Alflived

Alflost

Alffound

Alfnuts

 

there the five Stooges.  

[cuporbust]

1 hour ago, Josepho said:

Aside from the fact that Bonino was significantly cheaper, he also produced at a higher p/g here than Sutter has in his entire career other than one season.

 

His 5v5 P/60 of 2.02 in 2014-2015 was on par with players like Nathan MacKinnon, Chris Kreider, Blake Wheeler, Nick Backstrom, Marian Hossa and Pavel Datsyuk.

 

 

Hos corsi is below 50%. Sutter was better defensively , more consistent, and not a turnover machine at the worst possible times like Bonino was . Sutter , when healthy,  also had just as much offensive upside playing on the third line . He has also never been a minus player once in his entire NHL career,  regardless of playing against other teams top lines on a rebuilding team. They gave up a late second 55th overall that was used to draft gustavson (or however u spell it ), for an early 3rd that they used to draft lockwood. They also picked up what looked to be like a servicable d man and former 2nd rounder in Clendening. I am perfectly fine with that trade at the time . It was impossible for him to predict Sutter s injuries and how it wouuld effect him here . 

Edited June 29, 2019 by cuporbust

[ItTakesAnArmy]

18 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

1. Benning inherited a team with an empty prospect pool.  Gillis screwed Benning in more ways that one, the Luongo contract just being one example.  All his contracts had no trade or no move clauses.  Benning had to be extremely creative to get anything for the players that he traded. Often limited to only a hand full of teams,  Thank you Gillis.  

 

Naive.

Benning got a team with loads of cap space and contracts staggered so there was extra millions each year for the next 3 years.

The Luongo deal was okay, there were 6 other contracts similar in the league, all were penalized AFTER THE FACT

All Benning's contracts have had clauses.

For all that Benning is supposed to refill the prospect pool none are making the NHL

Gillis was 2013, 2020 is 6 months away.

23 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

2. His drafting has been impeccable, the only 2 you can call as misses have mitigating circumstances with them.  OJ has been injured a lot, not Benning’s fault.  And Virtanen potential still hasn’t been reached.  Only 22 and has 20 goal seasons in his future.  

Only 3 of 7 first round picks play on the team, Gaudette came via a Gillis trade. While Virtanen will play in the NHL he is ranked 25th of his draft class. The team was in need of replacing the Sedins and Kesler in 2014 by 2020 he has only two replacements.

26 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

3. The ufa’s he’s signed have been hit and miss but nobody could foresee how LE would play here after putting up great numbers in Boston and Dallas.  We had just made the playoffs and Benning thought LE was the missing piece to okay with the Sedins.  Nobody can blame Benning for making one last push.  Benning made 3 signings last year, Schaller being the only miss, the other 2, Rousseau and Beagle add an element of grit the Canucks don’t have.  And the Miller trade was great.  If we don’t make the playoffs we still get our pick, but if we make the playoffs will anyone care we gave up a late round draft pick?  Meanwhile we get a top 6 gritty forward with a very friendly cap hit

LE was easy to see, this two 30 goal seasons came in contract years and the players he played with were star players in both teams. Benning "thought", he gets paid not to make mistakes. Anyone can make mistakes, getting millions is to not make mistakes. Three signings of older vets two with clause contracts running until those players are 33 and 37 years old.

Miller trade great, TO gave up a 1rst to shed cap and Tampa even more cap stressed gets a top ten pick to shed cap space.

Miller has never been a top six player in the NHL and now doesn't have to earn it, he is given it.

34 minutes ago, Pure961089 said:

You have to ask yourself how long must the Canucks be in a rebuild?  I really think some Canuck fans are so used to losing that they have become content with their misery.

Due to the erratic nature of the rebuild the team should be taking another two years to stock pile first round picks, really one more year with a couple of 2020 firsts could do it that draft class is that strong.

At this point the team does not have the depth to do more, if other teams tank for next years draft class, a one and done, they will not win a round unless Markstrom actually plays even better their defense doesn't have enough size and experience to defeat SanJose, Calgary or a resurging Edmonton, certainly not Colorado. For all that Anahiem finished 2 or 3 points behind the Canucks with all those injuries they might have a come back in them.

 

July 1 is DEADLINE day for Benning, who will he sign? Duchene? Panarin? either are 11 mil max term deals. One of them and Myers? That locks the cap space up until 2026, what about the Seattle expansion? Any thought being given that? Cap space could yield another Karlsson on the block, just look at TO's players, there will be a good one available.

 

It is a coincidence but Seattle no longer has a GM and don't need one for a year, Benning's contract runs out in a year, Benning lives just a few hours down the road in Portland Oregon, the most northern county of California :D. Benning will have lots of teams "owing" him for helping them out, favors to be returned.

57 minutes ago, Honky Cat said:

Obviously Pro scouting has been somewhat poor, but I still believe that amateur scouting is the most imperative quality in a rebuilding team..Picking a player like Elias Pettersson is 'enough' to change everything...That pick alone has changed the way the Canucks are perceived (not here, but elsewhere in the league).

That pick should be expected in the top five, every top ten pick should be playing in the next season if not the one after, picks 3+ years should be essential players on those teams. Just because a player plays up to expectations is not a reason to celebrate and forgive top ten misses especially multiple top tens', this forum uses Edmonton as an excuse constantly but this team is getting a worse record, while theirs didn't live up to expectations either, most did play

[iceman64]

17 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

You countered his argument with zero factual evidence.  Literally all you did was call someone a "fool" for not agreeing with you, even though you provided absolutely nothing for anyone to even agree upon.  

 

2/10 

It made no sense to you bc you cant get your head around the fact if our deals had of worked out as planned, we'd be in the playoffs. Take LE for instance, the whole league, fans.. thought that would be a killer line, and it should have been. There was no one who thought otherwise yet look what happened, could any GM in the league known? No... any other GM would have done that deal, Guddy for toughness was another one, he was playing ok there... Vey was insanely lighting it up but failed to be Bure 2.0... why? Who knows but a team looking for scoring that would have perfect but JB made these moves to try and make the crappy team he took over better, and it is but no one could have known those things would happen but if you blame JB for trying to improve us before we had a fairly clean slate of players with no clauses to work with, then go be a fan of the oilers or flames.

[iceman64]

1 hour ago, Pure961089 said:

1. Benning inherited a team with an empty prospect pool.  Gillis screwed Benning in more ways that one, the Luongo contract just being one example.  All his contracts had no trade or no move clauses.  Benning had to be extremely creative to get anything for the players that he traded. Often limited to only a hand full of teams,  Thank you Gillis.  

 

2. His drafting has been impeccable, the only 2 you can call as misses have mitigating circumstances with them.  OJ has been injured a lot, not Benning’s fault.  And Virtanen potential still hasn’t been reached.  Only 22 and has 20 goal seasons in his future.  

 

3. The ufa’s he’s signed have been hit and miss but nobody could foresee how LE would play here after putting up great numbers in Boston and Dallas.  We had just made the playoffs and Benning thought LE was the missing piece to play with the Sedins.  Nobody can blame Benning for making one last push.  Benning made 3 signings last year, Schaller being the only miss, the other 2, Rousseau and Beagle add an element of grit the Canucks don’t have.  And the Miller trade was great.  If we don’t make the playoffs we still get our pick, but if we make the playoffs will anyone care we gave up a late 1st round draft pick?  Meanwhile we get a top 6 gritty forward with a very friendly cap hit.  

 

You have to ask yourself how long must the Canucks be in a rebuild?  I really think some Canuck fans are so used to losing that they have become content with their misery.    The easiest decisions to criticize are the ones YOU don’t have to make. 

IF you don't have a lot of players with clauses like we did, it probably would take 3 yrs under good circumstances but that wasn't the case here... glad some folks see how it really was, ty

Edited June 29, 2019 by iceman64

[Pure961089]

50 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Naive.

Benning got a team with loads of cap space and contracts staggered so there was extra millions each year for the next 3 years.

The Luongo deal was okay, there were 6 other contracts similar in the league, all were penalized AFTER THE FACT

All Benning's contracts have had clauses.

For all that Benning is supposed to refill the prospect pool none are making the NHL

Gillis was 2013, 2020 is 6 months away.

Only 3 of 7 first round picks play on the team, Gaudette came via a Gillis trade. While Virtanen will play in the NHL he is ranked 25th of his draft class. The team was in need of replacing the Sedins and Kesler in 2014 by 2020 he has only two replacements.

LE was easy to see, this two 30 goal seasons came in contract years and the players he played with were star players in both teams. Benning "thought", he gets paid not to make mistakes. Anyone can make mistakes, getting millions is to not make mistakes. Three signings of older vets two with clause contracts running until those players are 33 and 37 years old.

Miller trade great, TO gave up a 1rst to shed cap and Tampa even more cap stressed gets a top ten pick to shed cap space.

Miller has never been a top six player in the NHL and now doesn't have to earn it, he is given it.

Due to the erratic nature of the rebuild the team should be taking another two years to stock pile first round picks, really one more year with a couple of 2020 firsts could do it that draft class is that strong.

At this point the team does not have the depth to do more, if other teams tank for next years draft class, a one and done, they will not win a round unless Markstrom actually plays even better their defense doesn't have enough size and experience to defeat SanJose, Calgary or a resurging Edmonton, certainly not Colorado. For all that Anahiem finished 2 or 3 points behind the Canucks with all those injuries they might have a come back in them.

 

July 1 is DEADLINE day for Benning, who will he sign? Duchene? Panarin? either are 11 mil max term deals. One of them and Myers? That locks the cap space up until 2026, what about the Seattle expansion? Any thought being given that? Cap space could yield another Karlsson on the block, just look at TO's players, there will be a good one available.

 

It is a coincidence but Seattle no longer has a GM and don't need one for a year, Benning's contract runs out in a year, Benning lives just a few hours down the road in Portland Oregon, the most northern county of California :D. Benning will have lots of teams "owing" him for helping them out, favors to be returned.

That pick should be expected in the top five, every top ten pick should be playing in the next season if not the one after, picks 3+ years should be essential players on those teams. Just because a player plays up to expectations is not a reason to celebrate and forgive top ten misses especially multiple top tens', this forum uses Edmonton as an excuse constantly but this team is getting a worse record, while theirs didn't live up to expectations either, most did play

And what was Benning going to do with all that cap space?  Sign more LE’s?  Benning is a Hockey GM not a Seer.  You say it was easy to predict, that’s easy to say after the fact.  

 

Yes Benning contracts have clauses, every NHL contract have clauses including incentive clauses.  No Trade and No Move clauses are different.  Who’s being Naive?  

 

None (of our prospects) are making the NHL? Our entire core with the exception of Horvat was drafted by Benning.  Fact is many HAVE made the NHL.  Gaudette was still drafted by Benning.  Many Canuck prospects project to make the NHL in 2 or 3 years.  

 

Only three 1st round picks play for the mean? They were all drafted by Benning and it’s 4 not 3. Virtanen, Hughes, Pettersson And Boeser. OJ could be as soon as this year which would make 5.  

 

Benning’s “Job” is to do the best job he can.  Mistakes is part of the occupation.  Name me a GM that hasn’t made 1? 

 

On a deep team like Tampa it’s not surprising Miller hasn’t been given an opportunity to prove for any length of time to he’s a top 6 guy. He has though had multiple 20 goal seasons for someone who turned 26 not 3 months ago.  

 

Im just glad you’re not the GM LOL. 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Pure961089

[cuporbust]

On 6/25/2019 at 9:33 PM, kingofsurrey said:

Great results....

 

2015–16	82	31	38	13	75	191	243	6th, Pacific	Did not qualify
2016–17	82	30	43	9	69	182	243	7th, Pacific	Did not qualify
2017–18	82	31	40	11	73	218	264	7th, Pacific	Did not qualify
2018–19	82	35	36	11	81	225	254	5th, Pacific	Did not qualify

In the words of craig button , " the next quick rebuild will be the first one".