A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[Bubble Man]

8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I have not looked in that thread sorry.   But who focuses on the negative?  Nice try.  But I did read one of your posts after that looked actually not too bad, your assessment of the western conference teams and it really was pretty good.  So I gave your a heart.  Good job bubbles,  now I think I get it your handle, you think JB is Bubble Man.  Like a bubble team...just on the outside looking in.   Heck could be right, as in that’s where we are at in the rebuild.   The future looks brighter then that though, as long as he doesn’t or someone else doesn’t mess it up, in three years all the cap space comes back from the re-tool and gap/placeholder phase, just when Podz arrives, Tree is hopefully back and all the kids are starting or well into their second contracts.  That’s when this team could do some damage.  For now I agree mostly with your assessment there are a lot of ifs still for the team to make the playoffs and win a round or two.  Not that many to make the show but still some, decent health is one as the team proved the last year and even a little when the Sedins were here that they could play with anyone when healthy and win enough to be a top three team in our division.   Markstrom is also still an if as is Demko, but not a big one.

 

One things for sure prime UFAs like Panarin,  Stone, Duchene, Stamkos, Tavares etc will be much more interested in choosing Vancouver as a destination in three years then they do now and in the recent past (and many of them did anyways) not saying we should do that but at least it’s an option.  

 

Anyways thanks for letting me know I honestly had seen nothing but complaints and negativity and started to pick on you.  Look forward to seeing more like your western conference list. 

 

 

There are certain areas like goaltending where you can’t help but love what our organization is doing. Look at the Calgary flames. They are a goaltender away from being a Stanley cup contender. Look what happened to the blues. Last team In The league until they got a goalie. There are a lot of teams scrabbling for a goalie and we are probably at the top of the league when it comes to goaltending organizational depth. I don’t care what side you are on that is a brilliant strategy. You can see that was a organizational goal from the day they drafted Demko. This kind of long term strategy is what I would like to see in all areas. If you can admit that we are still looking at the post bottom 6, contract frenzy, timeframe as the target window. Why are we trading the futures that will emerge in that timeframe to marginally improve us now? It seems to me that Benning went off course this summer. He should be using the same strategy he uses for building goaltending depth for the entire team. 

[IBatch]

3 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

There are certain areas like goaltending where you can’t help but love what our organization is doing. Look at the Calgary flames. They are a goaltender away from being a Stanley cup contender. Look what happened to the blues. Last team In The league until they got a goalie. There are a lot of teams scrabbling for a goalie and we are probably at the top of the league when it comes to goaltending organizational depth. I don’t care what side you are on that is a brilliant strategy. You can see that was a organizational goal from the day they drafted Demko. This kind of long term strategy is what I would like to see in all areas. If you can admit that we are still looking at the post bottom 6, contract frenzy, timeframe as the target window. Why are we trading the futures that will emerge in that timeframe to marginally improve us now? It seems to me that Benning went off course this summer. He should be using the same strategy he uses for building goaltending depth for the entire team. 

I really think that if OJ came in and was better than McAvoy that every thing would be different.  I hated the pick at the time but understood why he did it.  I’m not that bullish on him as he seems frail and hasn’t made the show yet.   Plus watching him live one game he was good the other he was benched on a play that turned into the game winning goal for Laval (instead of taking the body which he easily could have done he went for the puck and the guy blew by him).  Can’t see how he will be in the NHL this year, maybe late in the season, plus Brisbois was better....of course this is a small sample size.   The flip side is maybe we wouldn’t have EP as a result so things worked out ok. 

 

I was sick to my stomach when I heard the trade and was waiting to here Sergechevs name but it didn’t come.  After some research into JT Miller I wasn’t as sick anymore and after doing the math on what that pick could mean for us actually pretty stoked.   I do get your viewpoint and will even admit that it could be right.   For now and not for a year or two we won’t really know if it was the right move, but I do know that the players themselves must be really stoked to have Myers and Miller and Benn coming in (who is considered a top five value UFA this offseason) could be our Vanek signing but for defense the next couple years.    

[mikeyman109]

8 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

There are certain areas like goaltending where you can’t help but love what our organization is doing. Look at the Calgary flames. They are a goaltender away from being a Stanley cup contender. Look what happened to the blues. Last team In The league until they got a goalie. There are a lot of teams scrabbling for a goalie and we are probably at the top of the league when it comes to goaltending organizational depth. I don’t care what side you are on that is a brilliant strategy. You can see that was a organizational goal from the day they drafted Demko. This kind of long term strategy is what I would like to see in all areas. If you can admit that we are still looking at the post bottom 6, contract frenzy, timeframe as the target window. Why are we trading the futures that will emerge in that timeframe to marginally improve us now? It seems to me that Benning went off course this summer. He should be using the same strategy he uses for building goaltending depth for the entire team. 

this i totally agree with. I believe you build a contender from the net out. This is what Edmonton has done wrong all along. Its exactly what St Louis did wrong until they got lucky and found a goalie in their organization that could solve the issue.  We are strong in net for years to come. Now lets find a Norris caliber D man. Maybe Hughes is the kid, maybe not.Build the depth at all positions before we try to sign our way into contention.

 

[Bubble Man]

16 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

this i totally agree with. I believe you build a contender from the net out. This is what Edmonton has done wrong all along. Its exactly what St Louis did wrong until they got lucky and found a goalie in their organization that could solve the issue.  We are strong in net for years to come. Now lets find a Norris caliber D man. Maybe Hughes is the kid, maybe not.Build the depth at all positions before we try to sign our way into contention.

 

We are becoming the Nashville of goalies. No bigger impact on a game then the guy in net. 

[189lb enforcers?]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Or Horvat instead of Nitsch (how do u spell him again) when posters frequently whined and wanted to trade him because all he could do was win face offs when he came in.  (No I’m not saying this because maybe OJ will end up better then every other D in the draft or because he will make me forget that we passed on MT). 

 

Or JV instead of blank blank.  You crack me up sometimes as does this forum. 

 

( BTW BPA is smart safe and usually works out....glad he’s learning that and picked Podz this year and not the next best D even though we needed one). 

Meh, MT was not a typical either-or dilemma when JB picked OJ. 

Which is why I say this in the first place.

 

Yes, haha, I get the ribbing -you can play that ‘or’ game in many scenarios, but I don’t, expect when JB let’s slide a premier power forward out of his hands. I know he was in need of a Dman, sure, but at the expense of a MT? The move is still the defining moment of my disgust for the Slim-Jim era. 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

3 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

this i totally agree with. I believe you build a contender from the net out. This is what Edmonton has done wrong all along. Its exactly what St Louis did wrong until they got lucky and found a goalie in their organization that could solve the issue.  We are strong in net for years to come. Now lets find a Norris caliber D man. Maybe Hughes is the kid, maybe not.Build the depth at all positions before we try to sign our way into contention.

 

Too late, friend. Too late.

 

I’ve embraced the mismanaged Accidental Tank era-turned spend your way out of trouble to compete with a half-baked rebuild product as to salvage what went well, while turning the page on what went wrong. Might as well get some miles out of EP and the other two or three pillars of this rebuild by trading for it, because drafting it sure as puck hasn’t worked, outside of the obvious few high picks. 

 

 

 

[Borvat]

On 6/30/2019 at 1:02 PM, 189lb enforcers? said:

The Edmonton model is used in this forum as if it’s the only outcome possible to what might have been done differently by a team using its youth during a rebuild. 

We could use the Red Wing model but that hasn't seemed to fair very well either - Chicago has struggled as well among others.  Rebuilds are not easy to complete successfully.  Especially when you have 2 aging superstars (Sedins) who are your best assets that you can not move.  While at the same time trying to prop up the team to make it "reasonably" competitive.  Completely opposing objectives in most regards. 

 

However, I look at the future of this young team and the prospects in the system and have hope.  Just a couple more years of staying the course and I believe the future is bright.  I am hopeful they miss the playoffs this year and make one more complete draft.  The cupboards are no longer bare.

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Meh, MT was not a typical either-or dilemma when JB picked OJ. 

Which is why I say this in the first place.

 

Yes, haha, I get the ribbing -you can play that ‘or’ game in many scenarios, but I don’t, expect when JB let’s slide a premier power forward out of his hands. I know he was in need of a Dman, sure, but at the expense of a MT? The move is still the defining moment of my disgust for the Slim-Jim era. 

 

In retrospect, OJ was not the bpa, which makes it the wrong pick.  Even if management didn't "like" MT's character/genes, etc he is still the better choice.  Can you imagine what they could get for him in a trade right now?  Yikes!

 

The 2016 draft was awful for the Canucks; especially if Lockwood doesn't pan out. Not what you want to see for a rebuilding team.

 

I still am hopeful that OJ will become a 2nd pairing dman, but all those injuries may have severely effected his overall devlopment.  Only 66 games over two years is a concern.

 

Anyways, it's all water under the bridge now.  JB has managed to make up for some of his mistakes, so I'd rather focus on the more positive aspects of the team.  Stay in the moment, as they say.  Besides, being negative all the time sucks my energy and comprimises a more optimistic spirit.

 

 

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

In retrospect, OJ was not the bpa, which makes it the wrong pick.  Even if management didn't "like" MT's character/genes, etc he is still the better choice.  Can you imagine what they could get for him in a trade right now?  Yikes!

 

The 2016 draft was awful for the Canucks; especially if Lockwood doesn't pan out. Not what you want to see for a rebuilding team.

 

I still am hopeful that OJ will become a 2nd pairing dman, but all those injuries may have severely effected his overall devlopment.  Only 66 games over two years is a concern.

 

Anyways, it's all water under the bridge now.  JB has managed to make up for some of his mistakes, so I'd rather focus on the more positive aspects of the team.  Stay in the moment, as they say.  Besides, being negative all the time sucks my energy and comprimises a more optimistic spirit.

But was Pettersson the BPA when he was picked? How many fans were like "what?" when that happened? BPA is going to be extremely suggestive and every team and every scout will have different lists on the order of who they should pick. If Juolevi was considered to be about the same as Tkachuk then I don't blame Benning one bit for that pick.

 

None of us are mind readers as evidenced by how we draft compared with how Benning drafts. Sometimes who we want might have been better in the end, but when Benning proves fans wrong by picking a Boeser or a Pettersson, he really proves fans wrong.

Edited July 9, 2019 by The Lock

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Meh, MT was not a typical either-or dilemma when JB picked OJ. 

Which is why I say this in the first place.

 

Yes, haha, I get the ribbing -you can play that ‘or’ game in many scenarios, but I don’t, expect when JB let’s slide a premier power forward out of his hands. I know he was in need of a Dman, sure, but at the expense of a MT? The move is still the defining moment of my disgust for the Slim-Jim era. 

 

Gotcha completely.  In some ways it was pivotal but like I said with MT making the lineup right away perhaps we would have never got EP...because our standings would have gone up...

 

Accidentally tanking.  Ha ha.  If OJ becomes a top four then all will be forgiven.  

[RowdyCanuck]

3 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gotcha completely.  In some ways it was pivotal but like I said with MT making the lineup right away perhaps we would have never got EP...because our standings would have gone up...

 

Accidentally tanking.  Ha ha.  If OJ becomes a top four then all will be forgiven.  

I get what you mean we might have missed out on Petey but a top line of MT Bo and Brock would have been a killer top line and also the draft after that there was D in the later parts of the draft....I like Jim but he really messed up passing on MT......

[Alflives]

4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Meh, MT was not a typical either-or dilemma when JB picked OJ. 

Which is why I say this in the first place.

 

Yes, haha, I get the ribbing -you can play that ‘or’ game in many scenarios, but I don’t, expect when JB let’s slide a premier power forward out of his hands. I know he was in need of a Dman, sure, but at the expense of a MT? The move is still the defining moment of my disgust for the Slim-Jim era. 

 

I was pissed at that draft too.  But JB, in a round about way, did build a really good young core.  I think it’s time to go all in and support that young core with the best players JB can get.  When the Hawks were rebuilding they drafted Cam Barker and Jack Skille at 3 and 8 OA.  Still they got P. Kane and J Toews at 1 and 3 OA.  And they got Keith in round two.  My point is teams make mistakes, and still can win if their hits outweigh those mistakes.  I think JB’s hits way outweigh his mistakes.  Our team is going to be really good for the next decade,  

[Silver Ghost]

1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I get what you mean we might have missed out on Petey but a top line of MT Bo and Brock would have been a killer top line and also the draft after that there was D in the later parts of the draft....I like Jim but he really messed up passing on MT......

I dont think there is any doubt left on that tbh.

[higgyfan]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

But was Pettersson the BPA when he was picked? How many fans were like "what?" when that happened? BPA is going to be extremely suggestive and every team and every scout will have different lists on the order of who they should pick. If Juolevi was considered to be about the same as Tkachuk then I don't blame Benning one bit for that pick.

 

None of us are mind readers as evidenced by how we draft compared with how Benning drafts. Sometimes who we want might have been better in the end, but when Benning proves fans wrong by picking a Boeser or a Pettersson, he really proves fans wrong.

I would say in retrospect, yes. Just like what I said about MT vs OJ.

 

[IBatch]

14 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I was pissed at that draft too.  But JB, in a round about way, did build a really good young core.  I think it’s time to go all in and support that young core with the best players JB can get.  When the Hawks were rebuilding they drafted Cam Barker and Jack Skille at 3 and 8 OA.  Still they got P. Kane and J Toews at 1 and 3 OA.  And they got Keith in round two.  My point is teams make mistakes, and still can win if their hits outweigh those mistakes.  I think JB’s hits way outweigh his mistakes.  Our team is going to be really good for the next decade,  

This thanks Alf.  I read an article today predicting the best playoff teams over the next few years...and was pleasantly surprised to see Van at 14.   This was also written BEFORE Myers and Miller and Benn (who’s considered a bargain) came by THN before the playoffs started this year.    I’m sure they’d move us up a few places now and bump a few teams around since the draft and free agency.

 

No GM hits on all their firsts, and no GM misses out on a surprise pick either (assuming they make a few drafts and your not EDM). 

 

Benning has picked the BPA the past three drafts or since OJ, so maybe he learned his lesson.   He’s also been cautious when it comes to UFA signings since LE so maybe he learned from that too.  For our case as fans, let’s hope so.

[Dr. Crossbar]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

Benning has picked the BPA the past three drafts or since OJ, so maybe he learned his lesson.   He’s also been cautious when it comes to UFA signings since LE so maybe he learned from that too.  For our case as fans, let’s hope so.

We've nearly had back-to-back Calder winners with Boeser coming close before his injury. Next season we could have that same trajectory with Hughes. This is a first in Canucks history. 

 

If OJ pans out, Tryamkin returns and excels, Podcolzin becomes a star, etc, Lockwood, Woo ... it'll make up for certain UFA frustrations and that 1st with Miller. We are playing a numbers game between drafting and UFAs. The Miller signing is a much better bridge to a higher level of competitiveness as the drafted emerge.

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Too late, friend. Too late.

 

I’ve embraced the mismanaged Accidental Tank era-turned spend your way out of trouble to compete with a half-baked rebuild product as to salvage what went well, while turning the page on what went wrong. Might as well get some miles out of EP and the other two or three pillars of this rebuild by trading for it, because drafting it sure as puck hasn’t worked, outside of the obvious few high picks. 

 

 

 

It’s too early to be sure about that.  I’ve said before only 7 guys past the second round have played 200 games for the Canucks or other teams that we’ve drafted since 2001 and half those guys were chumps.  Benning has Tree, AG, and a few other possibilities out there that could break that measly trend.     It’s those guys that usually make or break a rebuild.  EDM for example despite their wealth of early picks, and Buffalo for that matter and even CAR haven’t (of course their on the rise now) don’t have much to 

speak of either past round two.

 

Of course you can’t hit on a good one if you don’t play but the odds are bad.  7.5% of all picks combined past the second round haven’t made it (for us).  And only 4% have been decent-good.

 

I really wish some CDCer would be willing to spend the time to illustrate this in a way to make people understand that picks can be overrated.  

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

We've nearly had back-to-back Calder winners with Boeser coming close before his injury. Next season we could have that same trajectory with Hughes. This is a first in Canucks history. 

 

If OJ pans out, Tryamkin returns and excels, Podcolzin becomes a star, etc, Lockwood, Woo ... it'll make up for certain UFA frustrations and that 1st with Miller. We are playing a numbers game between drafting and UFAs. The Miller signing is a much better bridge to a higher level of competitiveness as the drafted emerge.

I really think that like it or not, Benning has locked in his core and has pushed things forward.   Also think that how well we do will depend on how well the guys that are just starting to play and will soon be arriving in Utica do over the next two years and which ones turn out good enough to play a decent-good role in the NHL as support players for the core.  CHI had Kane, Toews, Hossa, Seabrook, Keith, Crawford and Sharp as their main guys.  That’s seven players.  Plus a young Byfuglien as a forward and a medley of support players over the years.   We have Boeser, EP, Horvat, Hughes, Podz and Demko.  Plus a few hopefuls in OJ, JV plus plus...Madden, Woo etc.  Hard to say if it’s enough but it is a good start. 

[mikeyman109]

19 hours ago, Borvat said:

We could use the Red Wing model but that hasn't seemed to fair very well either - Chicago has struggled as well among others.  Rebuilds are not easy to complete successfully.  Especially when you have 2 aging superstars (Sedins) who are your best assets that you can not move.  While at the same time trying to prop up the team to make it "reasonably" competitive.  Completely opposing objectives in most regards. 

 

However, I look at the future of this young team and the prospects in the system and have hope.  Just a couple more years of staying the course and I believe the future is bright.  I am hopeful they miss the playoffs this year and make one more complete draft.  The cupboards are no longer bare.

The Red Wing model wasn't very good until  Mike Ilitch took over as owner. They floundered like many teams until they drafted Yzerman in 1983 i believe. Then they just out spent everyone else to become and stay competitive. If you want a better example of how to go about a good rebuild have a look at Colorado who are building a massive talent base especially at D.

Every team will go about rebuilding differently. Trying to build from the Center Ice position and drafting what some call BPA every year without regard for positional needs will get you a good team but will leave you with holes. At some point you need to find the pieces you are missing and draft them regardless of the criticism you may face.

Yzerman did it this year with a selection of the Defenseman they wanted.  Benning did it with OJ. The big issue has been Juolevi's injuries that have held him back. If he had been healthy and played well people would have less issue with the pick.

I agree the future is brighter today than a few years back. You are spot on when you say it is difficult to balance an aging core with trying to stay competitive. We are past that now. Now we need a few of the prospects to over perform.

[Bubble Man]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

It’s too early to be sure about that.  I’ve said before only 7 guys past the second round have played 200 games for the Canucks or other teams that we’ve drafted since 2001 and half those guys were chumps.  Benning has Tree, AG, and a few other possibilities out there that could break that measly trend.     It’s those guys that usually make or break a rebuild.  EDM for example despite their wealth of early picks, and Buffalo for that matter and even CAR haven’t (of course their on the rise now) don’t have much to 

speak of either past round two.

 

Of course you can’t hit on a good one if you don’t play but the odds are bad.  7.5% of all picks combined past the second round haven’t made it (for us).  And only 4% have been decent-good.

 

I really wish some CDCer would be willing to spend the time to illustrate this in a way to make people understand that picks can be overrated.  

 

This is why teams load up on picks. Its still premature to nail down a success rate of JBs drafting. If we look at who we still have in the system and who is still a potential asset, our success rate is profound. Let’s include the late 1st round because everyone is downplaying the significance of a late 1st. Due to TJ Miller narrative. 

2014

McCann - full time NHL -core 

Demko - Has  Vez potential - Core

Tree - NHL Bottom pair

Forsling - NHL Bottom pair

 

2015

Boeser - Core

Brisebois - NHL Bottom Pair

Gaudette - NHL 3rd Line C - core

 

2016

Lockwood - NHL 4th line

* note, this is the year he really threw away a lot of picks

 

2017

Lind - NHL top 9 Forward

Gadjovich - NHL 4th line 

DiPietro - NHL Solid 1B or tandem Goalie

Rathbone - NHL Depth 

Palmu - NHL 4th line/ Depth

 

2018

Woo - NHL top 4 - potentially core 

Madden - NHL 3rd Line C potentially core

 

Do not underestimate this teams amateur scouting bro. I will put this up against any other teams late round success in the same time period. Imagine if we kept those 2nds. Imagine if he loaded up on picks. Imagine if he kept those picks in 2016. Our 2-5th round draft picks are worth (to our team) more than anything else we have It’s how we are built. 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Bubble Man