Laine should bolt from WPG and come to VAN

[rekker]

Dont want him. Give me a bunch of star players making less than that goof but still stars. EP should and will be our most expensive player soon enough making considerably more than others on the team but deservedly so as an elite player. Goofs like Laine are gonna get elite money but you cant find them on the ice when the going gets tough. Nylander, Laine, Skinner, Stamkos. Not the type of players you win with when playoffs come around. 

[Chickenspear]

11 hours ago, Toews said:

The PA will never agree to that because IMO its a pretty ridiculous suggestion. McDavid is carrying that team, he and Draisatl are the only reason one would bother to even turn on an Oilers game. He is also going to drastically outperform his current contract which IMO underpaid him the moment he signed it. Dock him 30% of his salary so that the likes of Lucic Neal can get paid whatever they do is cause for him to just say "&^@# it, just trade me." The same goes for a guy like Eichel, why would he want to stick around in Buffalo? What if I told you, you had to take a paycut to go live in Somalia? 

 

I would argue that teams already have too much leverage with the way the offer sheet compensation is set up. To me sports is a meritocracy, I understand league economics dictate that the same cannot be reflected in player salaries but the idea of Petey having to take a significant haircut while Eriksson makes 6M just seems like cruel and unusual punishment for the stars that drive this league. 

The maximum salary for a 2nd RFA contract as I meant it wouldn't target existing contracts, it's more likely something that gets grandfathered in with the next CBA, should the NHLPA agree. It's not really taking a pay cut if you were making league minimum on an ELC, then get signed to a $7 million/year contract. Your Somalia line is an extreme example of hyperbole btw... As much as it pains me to say it, Edmonton and Buffalo are miles better. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

The maximum salary for a 2nd RFA contract as I meant it wouldn't target existing contracts, it's more likely something that gets grandfathered in with the next CBA, should the NHLPA agree. It's not really taking a pay cut if you were making league minimum on an ELC, then get signed to a $7 million/year contract. Your Somalia line is an extreme example of hyperbole btw... As much as it pains me to say it, Edmonton and Buffalo are miles better. 

So Betman can grandfather in a new rule like he did with the Lou cap recapture?  

[Chickenspear]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

So Betman can grandfather in a new rule like he did with the Lou cap recapture?  

I wouldn't imagine there being a penalty like that attached to the proposed rule. If you can't sign a 2nd contract to an RFA past a certain $ limit, there'd be nothing to penalize.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

I wouldn't imagine there being a penalty like that attached to the proposed rule. If you can't sign a 2nd contract to an RFA past a certain $ limit, there'd be nothing to penalize.

All the second contract guys who signed previous to the new CBA rule could be targets, just like Lou and the Canucks were.  

[Chickenspear]

Just now, Alflives said:

All the second contract guys who signed previous to the new CBA rule could be targets, just like Lou and the Canucks were.  

 

22 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

The maximum salary for a 2nd RFA contract as I meant it wouldn't target existing contracts, it's more likely something that gets grandfathered in with the next CBA, should the NHLPA agree. It's not really taking a pay cut if you were making league minimum on an ELC, then get signed to a $7 million/year contract. Your Somalia line is an extreme example of hyperbole btw... As much as it pains me to say it, Edmonton and Buffalo are miles better. 

So the limit rule would apply to those who are still on their ELCs

[Alflives]

Just now, Chickenspear said:

 

So the limit rule would apply to those who are still on their ELCs

The league can do pretty much what they want in the next CBA just so long as it’s agreed to by both sides.  

[Chickenspear]

Just now, Alflives said:

The league can do pretty much what they want in the next CBA just so long as it’s agreed to by both sides.  

Yeah, that's kinda my point. Just my opinion on what I'd like to see them do.

[Toews]

12 hours ago, Chickenspear said:

The maximum salary for a 2nd RFA contract as I meant it wouldn't target existing contracts, it's more likely something that gets grandfathered in with the next CBA, should the NHLPA agree. It's not really taking a pay cut if you were making league minimum on an ELC, then get signed to a $7 million/year contract. Your Somalia line is an extreme example of hyperbole btw... As much as it pains me to say it, Edmonton and Buffalo are miles better. 

Oh no i definitely got that. I am just projecting it for whoever the future McDavid is. If you are a generational talent and you end up on a $&!#ty team in a $&!#ty place, would you want your $&!#ty teammates to be making as much or nearly as much dough as you? McDavid is frustrated and he makes 12.5M a year, can you imagine his frustrations if his salary had been capped at 8M a year? More importantly it begs the question why should the players that produce take significantly less so that the team can sign a bunch of slugs who get paid exorbitant amounts of money for doing much of nothing. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

If there's a trade to be done excluding one of our golden core guys then I'd be all over it. Time to trade is now while his stock is as low as it can be. He's a potential future star, big body strong guy amazing shot and can be a consistent 40+ goal scorer. Him alongside with Pettersson and maybe Boeser would be the best future line in the league for a long time to come.

 

The question is what else do we have to offer...

 

 

[rekker]

19 hours ago, Chickenspear said:

The maximum salary for a 2nd RFA contract as I meant it wouldn't target existing contracts, it's more likely something that gets grandfathered in with the next CBA, should the NHLPA agree. It's not really taking a pay cut if you were making league minimum on an ELC, then get signed to a $7 million/year contract. Your Somalia line is an extreme example of hyperbole btw... As much as it pains me to say it, Edmonton and Buffalo are miles better. 

I agree. Not sure what the limit should be but it seems players are asking and getting too much when they really have a lot to prove yet. Its touches on a beef I have with pro sports in general. Take a golfer for instance who gets his money as he earns it. Not based on how he may perform. Is what it is and as a fan of the game it really shouldn't matter to me. Best players in the world deserve huge money, they do. I just have issues when guys like Nylander and Ehlers get huge money, long term contracts based on projections. 

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, rekker said:

I agree. Not sure what the limit should be but it seems players are asking and getting too much when they really have a lot to prove yet. Its touches on a beef I have with pro sports in general. Take a golfer for instance who gets his money as he earns it. Not based on how he may perform. Is what it is and as a fan of the game it really shouldn't matter to me. Best players in the world deserve huge money, they do. I just have issues when guys like Nylander and Ehlers get huge money, long term contracts based on projections. 

The Nylander and Ehlers contracts are exactly why JB didn’t draft either one.  I’m sure JB could see a couple of regular season, one way players who would put up points (and as a result eat up big cap dollars) but not help teams win.  Paying these types of players eating up big cap dollars actually hurts teams’ chances of winning in the playoffs.  

[rekker]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

The Nylander and Ehlers contracts are exactly why JB didn’t draft either one.  I’m sure JB could see a couple of regular season, one way players who would put up points (and as a result eat up big cap dollars) but not help teams win.  Paying these types of players eating up big cap dollars actually hurts teams’ chances of winning in the playoffs.  

It brings me back to a quote from one of the best coaches of all time. Coach Belichick. Something along the lines of "The team with the best players doesn't win the championship. The team with the least weaknesses wins it" Marner is a beast but we may well get Bo (a centre) and Brock for the same salary.  I take that trade off every day if we have one elite, paid stud in EP. Call me overly positive but I love the way the Canucks are trending salary wise and I believe they will be contenders if they continue with the current salary structure. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by rekker

[Toews]

59 minutes ago, rekker said:

I agree. Not sure what the limit should be but it seems players are asking and getting too much when they really have a lot to prove yet. Its touches on a beef I have with pro sports in general. Take a golfer for instance who gets his money as he earns it. Not based on how he may perform. Is what it is and as a fan of the game it really shouldn't matter to me. Best players in the world deserve huge money, they do. I just have issues when guys like Nylander and Ehlers get huge money, long term contracts based on projections. 

Eriksson, Ladd, Lucic, Okposo, Backes all hit the UFA market at the same time, how many of those contracts would you take over Nylander or Ehlers? Actually don't answer because anything more than 0 is objectively false. Regardless of your opinion of Nylander or Ehlers, they carry more value on the market than any of the above mentioned players despite all that the older players have "proven". Because "proven" is in the past, projecting who is going to perform, you take the guys that are still in their prime vs the ones that are already over the hill.

 

Quote

Jeff Skinner got $5.75M, Taylor Hall got $6M, and Tyler Seguin got $5.75M in 2012 when the Cap was $64M so 9-9.5% for of the cap for each of them.
Stamkos got $7.5M in 2011 when the Cap was $64M so 11.7% of the cap.
Kane got $6.3M in 2009 when the Cap was $59.4M so 10.6% of the cap.
Crosby got $8.7M in 2007 when the Cap was $56.7M so 15.3% of the cap
Malkin got $8.7M in 2007 when the cap was $56.8M so 15.2% of the cap

Etc...

Draisaitl's got $8.75 when the cap was $75M so 11.6% of the cap.
Eichel got 10M when the cap was $79.5M, so 12.6%
Nylander got $6.9M when the cap was $79.5, so 8.6%
Aho got $8.45M when the cap was $81.5M, so 10.4% 
Matthews got $11.6M when the cap was $81.5M, so 14.2%
McDavid got $12.5M when the cap was $79.5, so 15.7%

I stole this HF but this illustrates the picture with guys that were signed in the past compared to now and we see consistently that RFAs are drastically outperforming their contracts. Even the ones not mentioned on here that people bellyache about like the Nugent-Hopkins contract, I think he will easily outperform that contract considering what Kevin Hayes just signed for this offseason.

 

This article is also worth a look. 

 

Quote

There are various points at which you can say the market for RFAs shifted from guys taking (often far) less than they were worth to guys getting paid market value. I tend to think it happened when William Nylander refused to sign for a penny less than he thought he was worth, dragging the saga until almost the start of December and, in doing so, sorta-kinda torpedoing his own season.

 

But others will contend it was when Leon Draisaitl — who’s often seen as more of a sidekick to Connor McDavid than a great player in his own right, capable of driving his own production — getting $8.5 million from the Oilers. But Edmonton is sometimes implicated going even farther back than that, to when Taylor Hall, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, and Jordan Eberle all got contracts that were, at the time, a bit rich.

 

(This ignores the guys like Alex Ovechkin, Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Auston Matthews, and Connor McDavid. They all cashed in big but they’re rightly seen as generational talents to whom normal rules simply don’t apply.)

 

But apart from Nylander in the list above, doesn’t it seem like almost all those guys ended up having been, I don’t know, underpaid? The idea that Taylor Hall will make $6 million against the cap this season, as he has for the previous six, is at this point silly. Injuries aside, a player that good is worth a hell of a lot more than the $6-million AAV Timo Meier signed for on July 1.

 

Some of that value is, obviously, kind of built the way the salary cap works. When Hall signed his extension, it was worth 10 percent of the cap; today, Meier’s identical cap hit makes up less than 7.4 percent. But let me make a prediction here: If both players stay healthy, Hall’s very likely to be worth that extra 2.6 percent. And more.

 

And you can do this with any of the above. The Draisaitl signing was risky, but even if he only rides in McDavid’s sidecar for the foreseeable future, he’s likely to be worth more than even Sebastian Aho’s comparable cap hit. That’s not a knock on Aho, and certainly the McDavid factor can’t be ignored, but the point remains.

 

So for all the grumbling about these guys resetting the market for RFAs and the Death of the Second Contract, you’d have a hard time arguing they’re not going to meet or exceed the value of their deals. Why? Because as the cap grows and 21- and 22-year-olds sign for big money, they’re doing so for the primes of their careers and maybe a couple years after, depending on the term. There’s a growing understanding in the league that really good players who have “only” been in the league two or three years can be — and often are — more valuable than really good players hitting UFA status at 27 and 28.

 

The former have room to grow, the latter not so much. It’s that simple. So while people around the league apparently feel more than welcome to complain behind demands of anonymity about Mitch Marner trying to get a double-digit AAV, none did the same when Florida gave Sergei Bobrovsky a $10-million AAV. But by the time Marner’s eventual deal ends, which will have been more “worth it” to the team giving out that deal? I have a guess!

 

What GMs are actually mad about is that they have to change the way they’ve done business forever. They can no longer rely on cronyism and whataboutism to get guys in their early 20s to take considerably less than they’re worth just so they can give some 29-year-old too much money for the next six years. Just because Morgan Rielly or Nazem Kadri took less than they deserved doesn’t mean Matthews, Nylander or Marner should.

https://sports.yahoo.com/perception-has-far-too-much-to-do-with-paying-nhl-restricted-free-agents-150902174.html

 

There is also this Athletic article which expounds on the RFA standoff.

 

https://theathletic.com/1140441/2019/08/15/inside-the-rfa-standoff-and-why-it-impacts-nearly-every-nhl-team/

 

40 minutes ago, rekker said:

It brings me back to a quote from one of the best coaches of all time. Coach Belichick. Something along the lines of "The team with the best players doesn't win the championship. The team with the least weaknesses wins it" Marner is a beast but we may well get Bo (a centre) and Brock for the same salary.  I take that trade off every day if we have one elite, paid stud in EP. Call me overly positive but I love the way the Canucks are trending salary wise and I believe they will be contenders if they continue with the current salary structure. 

Ironically Bellichick is notorious for dumping players before anyone realized they'd lost a step. As great of a coach he is, IMO he might be the greatest GM of all time as well. Sentimentality and loyalty aren't part of Bellichick's mentality. It is whether you can do the job or someone else will.

 

 

The proof is in the pudding, you just have to look past the fluff to spot it. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Toews

[rekker]

You cant compare UFA to RFA contracts. Apples to Oranges. 

[Chickenspear]

On 8/20/2019 at 5:39 AM, Toews said:

Oh no i definitely got that. I am just projecting it for whoever the future McDavid is. If you are a generational talent and you end up on a $&!#ty team in a $&!#ty place, would you want your $&!#ty teammates to be making as much or nearly as much dough as you? McDavid is frustrated and he makes 12.5M a year, can you imagine his frustrations if his salary had been capped at 8M a year? More importantly it begs the question why should the players that produce take significantly less so that the team can sign a bunch of slugs who get paid exorbitant amounts of money for doing much of nothing. 

While I can understand that sentiment, I'll give you the flipside. If you're on said sh***y team in a sh***y place with sh***y team mates, would you really want to tie yourself down with a long term high $ contract that basically guarantees you staying there, or would you rather have a tradable contract that'll give you an out? There wouldn't be a lot of teams in the position to make that kind of a deal. If Mcdavid is frustrated with a $12.5 million contract, kinda shows that he cares more about winning and playing good hockey than contract value. 

 

Say the cap would be $8 million. Mcdavid would be making the max, Draisaitl would probably be making ~$7 mill or so. That would be  $6 million off the current cap, allowing you to sign supporting players to help fill holes in your roster, something like a top 6 forward, a couple bottom 6 forwards, a top 4 d-man, depth players etc... 

 

A 2-3 year $8 million contract isn't anything to scoff at, imo.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Chickenspear

[Toews]

37 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

While I can understand that sentiment, I'll give you the flipside. If you're on said sh***y team in a sh***y place with sh***y team mates, would you really want to tie yourself down with a long term high $ contract that basically guarantees you staying there, or would you rather have a tradable contract that'll give you an out? There wouldn't be a lot of teams in the position to make that kind of a deal. If Mcdavid is frustrated with a $12.5 million contract, kinda shows that he cares more about winning and playing good hockey than contract value. 

 

Say the cap would be $8 million. Mcdavid would be making the max, Draisaitl would probably be making ~$7 mill or so. That would be  $6 million off the current cap, allowing you to sign supporting players to help fill holes in your roster, something like a top 6 forward, a couple bottom 6 forwards, a top 4 d-man, depth players etc... 

 

A 2-3 year $8 million contract isn't anything to scoff at, imo.

To us? Of course it isn't, but I don't know about you but most people want to get paid relative to their production. McDavid imo gave Edmonton a discount when he signed the deal to begin with. 12.5M is still less than what was his true worth. Some have argued that he stayed close to the 15% range that Crosby got so that he could avoid criticism. Whatever it is it now looks like McDavid a player who is much better than Matthews will likely end up making quite a lot less that what he should have received. Players do compare bank accounts and lets not forget Matthews plays on a much better team in a much more visible market. There is a reason we are sitting here in August and no one has signed and its because the cat is out of the bag and players realize their worth and are not taking a penny less because it isn't the job of the player to figure out the cap. We shall see but I see this as a precedent setting summer at least as far as contracts for star players. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Toews

[Chickenspear]

Just now, Toews said:

To us? Of course it isn't, but I don't know about you but most people want to get paid relative to their production. McDavid imo gave Edmonton a discount when he signed the deal to begin with. 12.5M is still less than what was his true worth. Some have argued that he stayed close to the 15% range that Crosby got so that he could avoid criticism. Whatever it is it now looks like McDavid a player who is much better than Matthews will likely end up making quite a lot less that what he should have received. Players do compare bank accounts and lets not forget Matthews plays on a much better team in a much more visible market. There is a reason we are sitting here in August and no one has signed and its because the cat is out of the bag and players realize their worth and are not taking a penny less because it isn't the job of the player to figure out the cap. We shall see but I see this as a precedent setting summer at least as far as contracts for star players. 

I just hope cooler heads prevail and value team performance vs. personal gain.

[Toews]

6 minutes ago, Chickenspear said:

I just hope cooler heads prevail and value team performance vs. personal gain.

We shall agree to disagree. But I don't believe that Marner or for that matter Boeser should have to take even a penny less. Its the GMs job to not mismanage the cap and put a team together that can win, its not the responsibility of the player. 

[rekker]

4 hours ago, Toews said:

We shall agree to disagree. But I don't believe that Marner or for that matter Boeser should have to take even a penny less. Its the GMs job to not mismanage the cap and put a team together that can win, its not the responsibility of the player. 

This. It's a business and for those who say they would play for way less......no one wants to watch you. Take Marner for example. Easy for fans to say just take a million less than your worth. Over 6 or 8 years that's a lot of money. Then consider he will eventually be retired and it doesnt matter how much he's made the extra he would of given away will be missed. I'm all for players taking all they want. They are the best in the world and they entertain me. I would give up everything else on my TV set to keep my NHL games. I live for them.