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5 hours ago, Magikal said:

Truthfully though, just do research online prior to coming down. The internet has brought transparency to the industry. Make no mistake about it the biggest problem for a client buying a car is THEMSELVES. Clients lie 50 times for every time they find a sales person who lies once. Not that anyone should be lying, but clients are much worse than sales people when it comes to being dishonest. Then there are those who have commitment issues to the point where they never do commit to a purchase but are forever unhappy.

Research cars that meet your needs and budget. Go to a store once you have a general idea and it's simply down to test drives and final figures. Be honest with your sales person and you will almost always have a greater experience than if you have your back up, withhold information pertinent to your deal and lie about anything up to and including commitment to purchase. Clients who have poor experiences in today's world are almost always to blame and it's because of their poor attitudes and deceptive buying practices. 


ALSO: Do not ask for a "best price", especially over email. First of all you probably won't get a figure and if you do it most certainly isn't the best price. Go into the store like an adult, present a committed offer to the dealer and get your car. Your presence in the store and commitment are the best bullets in your chamber to get what you want. Otherwise no one takes you seriously and will not give you adequate service......and to be frank, if you try buy cars that way, you don't deserve a good experience.

 

5 hours ago, Magikal said:

FYI cash deals suck for us. We hate them. We want you to finance because the banks give us a kickback for the business. getting a lightly pre owned car, 1 year lease return or rental is hands down the best way to go.

People scared of rentals are hilarious. Most rental companies go through the car with a fine toothed comb and have your CC on file. If you damage their car you're gonna eat the cost. Also most people don't think of the car that gets rented. No one is driving mach speeds on dirt road in a damn Ford Focus.


Things clients lie about that make our job difficult:

-Willingness to do business
-The guy down the road is selling the exact same car for X less than you (Then go buy it you clown :lol:)
-No accidents/damage on my trade
-All decision makers are present
-We are already approved at X by X 
-We haven't shopped our credit around (Equifax has determined THAT was a lie and now your credit is bruised due to multiple submissions)

There are more but those are the big ones

In these 2 posts is a helluva lot of good advice.  Do your research and have reasonable expectations.

 

I've bought a lot of cars over the years and have come by the same conclusions the hard way.  I buy cars based on dollars per year of expected life.  I consider purchase price, fuel economy, insurance costs, maintenance and resale.  Essentially all costs from purchase to eventual disposition of the vehicle even if that is zero.  Used cars are obviously more economical but you have to consider why the seller is selling.  Many are sold for good reasons but many others are sold because the car has problems.  Nobody wants to be buying somebody else's problems.  So you want to know the reason why the car is being sold.  Private sales are cheaper because you can't know this information.  They are cheaper because the risk of purchase is higher.  Used cars purchased from dealers are a little more pricey because dealers need to maintain their reputation and can't screw people over and stay in business and there is some recourse if you buy a bad car from them.

 

Lease returns and rentals are great because you know why the car is on the market.  Lightly used is the next less risky because as the car is newer and there is less liklihood that the car has been either abused or damaged due to poor maintenance.  

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I bought my last two vehicles privately from Craigslist. Both great deals ...sound vehicles with low kms and clean titles. I leased once...never again. I did have a bad experience at the auto mall. I bought a vehicle to be picked up the following day. I took off work only to be told the vehicle still needed to be air cared etc. The car wasn't Air Cared by the end of that day or the next. I had already paid for it with the impression that it was 'ready to go'. I cancelled the sale with a lot of hassle as they didn't want to refund me. After a lot of bs, they finally reversed the sale but it took several days. I had to get my bank involved yada yada....

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13 hours ago, Magikal said:

Truthfully though, just do research online prior to coming down. The internet has brought transparency to the industry. Make no mistake about it the biggest problem for a client buying a car is THEMSELVES. Clients lie 50 times for every time they find a sales person who lies once. Not that anyone should be lying, but clients are much worse than sales people when it comes to being dishonest. Then there are those who have commitment issues to the point where they never do commit to a purchase but are forever unhappy.

Research cars that meet your needs and budget. Go to a store once you have a general idea and it's simply down to test drives and final figures. Be honest with your sales person and you will almost always have a greater experience than if you have your back up, withhold information pertinent to your deal and lie about anything up to and including commitment to purchase. Clients who have poor experiences in today's world are almost always to blame and it's because of their poor attitudes and deceptive buying practices. 


ALSO: Do not ask for a "best price", especially over email. First of all you probably won't get a figure and if you do it most certainly isn't the best price. Go into the store like an adult, present a committed offer to the dealer and get your car. Your presence in the store and commitment are the best bullets in your chamber to get what you want. Otherwise no one takes you seriously and will not give you adequate service......and to be frank, if you try buy cars that way, you don't deserve a good experience.

This is a good advice, in particular the middle paragraph.

 

But as a buyer, you are always worried about overpaying (unless you have a boatload of money). Suppose the car is being sold for $x and let's say your budget is greater than $x. Should you not try to find a cheaper price? Should you walk in and be honest and say my budget is $x, then the salesperson says "OK, here's the car for $x." A month or two later, you find out that your friend or colleague got the same car for a grand cheaper than $x. How would that feel? To most people a grand is a big sum.

 

I think the buyers need to have proper expectations but also, the difference between MSRP and the actual purchase price paid from one buyer to another makes the car dealership extremely difficult to be honest with. The first two cars that we bought, we didn't try to bargain because we had a decent budget. We were happy with the cars but have had regrets after hearing what others have paid. Just human nature. We were happy with the cars but still had a bitter taste. From there, I learned my lesson and always try to bargain, go in with lower budget that you can actually manage. We purchased cars 2 more times and both times, we got the car at the price lower than our real budget, even if it worked out to be only $30-50 lower per month, it adds up to quite a big sum over a 5-7 year financing plan.

 

As you say, dealers have to struggle against customers' lying and that must be a tiring experience. But you can't really blame the customers for feeling the need to lie to protect their interest, especially considering that most customers are amateur in negotiation whereas you guys are pros. I think this industry can still benefit from further transparency and both parties will struggle less, a lot less. How much is the dealership really making from the sale? If the customers have even a ballpark understanding of that for the car that they are purchasing, that would make the customers be more honest, no? For example, I understand small cars have smaller margin and fancier cars have larger margin but that's all I know so I know I can bargain for more when going for a fancier car compared to say Ford Focus (although I have never bought that one before). When I negotiate a price and say that I can afford $x per month and they come back with $x + y, I don't know where that $y came from. What are you left to say? Something like, well a similar car from another brand is available at $x + y/2, but I really like this car. Can you come close to $x + y/2? Then, they usually say they need to go talk to the manager, then come back with $x + 2y/3 and that point, you say OK... if you really like the car? I've heard a dealer say things like, oh it's only $20 more per payment (say monthly payment), then I said, well but over the 5 year term, that's like over $1000. And if it's only $20 more per payment, then why don't you give it to me for $20 cheaper?

 

On the contrary, I went to the same dealership to see if they wanted to buy my car back after 2 years with less than 20,000KM as I took to public transit far more often than I expected. No accident and not even a scratch, they took it for a test drive and said it was in a good condition. And yet, the price they offered me was less than half of the price that I paid for and 4-5 grand lower than the same cars listed on autotrader. But I couldn't negotiate because they were saying there is another dealership who bought the same car but it's been sitting in their lot for 6 months and I couldn't sell the car because knowing how much it was listed on autotrader, I couldn't sell it at that price. Were they telling me a lie or truth? It's just impossible to tell. When I was buying the car, they were raving about the high resale value of the car so I mention it to them and say, you are saying my car depreciated to half its original value in just 2 years? They nodded. lol. I kept the car and am still happy with it but man it was a bitter experience.

 

Overall, my experience has been neutral with the dealers. They are generally respectable and patient. But I learned to go in with lower budget (to protect myself) against these professional salesmen. I'm actually slightly surprised to hear that the dealers also are stressed over the customers' lying. 

 

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15 hours ago, Magikal said:

FYI cash deals suck for us. We hate them. We want you to finance because the banks give us a kickback for the business. getting a lightly pre owned car, 1 year lease return or rental is hands down the best way to go.

People scared of rentals are hilarious. Most rental companies go through the car with a fine toothed comb and have your CC on file. If you damage their car you're gonna eat the cost. Also most people don't think of the car that gets rented. No one is driving mach speeds on dirt road in a damn Ford Focus.


Things clients lie about that make our job difficult:

-Willingness to do business
-The guy down the road is selling the exact same car for X less than you (Then go buy it you clown :lol:)
-No accidents/damage on my trade
-All decision makers are present
-We are already approved at X by X 
-We haven't shopped our credit around (Equifax has determined THAT was a lie and now your credit is bruised due to multiple submissions)

There are more but those are the big ones

Thats pretty much the only way I want to buy a car.  Bought my first one cash 13 years ago and still have it, best cash I spent especially when it was only 2 years old and barely driven.  Now I want to buy an EV with cash, just got to save up a few more bucks first, hopefully get it before the Cons win the election and take away the rebate.

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2 hours ago, khay said:

so I mention it to them and say, you are saying my car depreciated to half its original value in just 2 years? They nodded. lol. I kept the car and am still happy with it but man it was a bitter experience.

 

Overall, my experience has been neutral with the dealers. They are generally respectable and patient. But I learned to go in with lower budget (to protect myself) against these professional salesmen. I'm actually slightly surprised to hear that the dealers also are stressed over the customers' lying. 

 

this is what people really need to remember too, cars are not vintage wine, they go down in value. You aren't going to see your Nissan Micra at a Barret Jackson auction in 25 years.

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3 hours ago, khay said:

This is a good advice, in particular the middle paragraph.

 

But as a buyer, you are always worried about overpaying (unless you have a boatload of money). Suppose the car is being sold for $x and let's say your budget is greater than $x. Should you not try to find a cheaper price? Should you walk in and be honest and say my budget is $x, then the salesperson says "OK, here's the car for $x." A month or two later, you find out that your friend or colleague got the same car for a grand cheaper than $x. How would that feel? To most people a grand is a big sum.

 

I think the buyers need to have proper expectations but also, the difference between MSRP and the actual purchase price paid from one buyer to another makes the car dealership extremely difficult to be honest with. The first two cars that we bought, we didn't try to bargain because we had a decent budget. We were happy with the cars but have had regrets after hearing what others have paid. Just human nature. We were happy with the cars but still had a bitter taste. From there, I learned my lesson and always try to bargain, go in with lower budget that you can actually manage. We purchased cars 2 more times and both times, we got the car at the price lower than our real budget, even if it worked out to be only $30-50 lower per month, it adds up to quite a big sum over a 5-7 year financing plan.

 

As you say, dealers have to struggle against customers' lying and that must be a tiring experience. But you can't really blame the customers for feeling the need to lie to protect their interest, especially considering that most customers are amateur in negotiation whereas you guys are pros. I think this industry can still benefit from further transparency and both parties will struggle less, a lot less. How much is the dealership really making from the sale? If the customers have even a ballpark understanding of that for the car that they are purchasing, that would make the customers be more honest, no? For example, I understand small cars have smaller margin and fancier cars have larger margin but that's all I know so I know I can bargain for more when going for a fancier car compared to say Ford Focus (although I have never bought that one before). When I negotiate a price and say that I can afford $x per month and they come back with $x + y, I don't know where that $y came from. What are you left to say? Something like, well a similar car from another brand is available at $x + y/2, but I really like this car. Can you come close to $x + y/2? Then, they usually say they need to go talk to the manager, then come back with $x + 2y/3 and that point, you say OK... if you really like the car? I've heard a dealer say things like, oh it's only $20 more per payment (say monthly payment), then I said, well but over the 5 year term, that's like over $1000. And if it's only $20 more per payment, then why don't you give it to me for $20 cheaper?

 

On the contrary, I went to the same dealership to see if they wanted to buy my car back after 2 years with less than 20,000KM as I took to public transit far more often than I expected. No accident and not even a scratch, they took it for a test drive and said it was in a good condition. And yet, the price they offered me was less than half of the price that I paid for and 4-5 grand lower than the same cars listed on autotrader. But I couldn't negotiate because they were saying there is another dealership who bought the same car but it's been sitting in their lot for 6 months and I couldn't sell the car because knowing how much it was listed on autotrader, I couldn't sell it at that price. Were they telling me a lie or truth? It's just impossible to tell. When I was buying the car, they were raving about the high resale value of the car so I mention it to them and say, you are saying my car depreciated to half its original value in just 2 years? They nodded. lol. I kept the car and am still happy with it but man it was a bitter experience.

 

Overall, my experience has been neutral with the dealers. They are generally respectable and patient. But I learned to go in with lower budget (to protect myself) against these professional salesmen. I'm actually slightly surprised to hear that the dealers also are stressed over the customers' lying. 

 

Very fair point but do we get that way when technology goes on sale( phones especially)? The guy who bought the S10+ when it first came out (me) surely paid more than anyone buying one now. Does that mean I should be mad, jaded or upset about it? Hell to the no. I made that decision and I paid a premium to get it early. So then why is it socially accepted to act this way about cars? Very much a double standard.

I absolutely can blame the customer and I do. They make up the assumptions that we are evil cigar smoking sharks who would cut our mothers' throats for a $20. When it couldn't be further from the truth 99% of the time. There are bad apples in every industry but the majority of us in the car business just want to provide good service in exchange for a comfortable living for our families. Same as all of you. Again, no one does this kind of crap in other industry, only cars. Oh and in terms of profit margins in cars, most cars hold less than 5% profit before you come in and try to beat up the store for a better deal.

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1 minute ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

If you have to finance a vehicle, you shouldn’t be driving it.

So is that true about a home as well? That is such a short sighted approach to life and if everyone took that approach economies would crumble world wide. 

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1 minute ago, Magikal said:

So is that true about a home as well? That is such a short sighted approach to life and if everyone took that approach economies would crumble world wide. 

It’s created this bubble we’re living on, and it’s about to burst. 

 

 And I was able to come up with $42,000 (for a 4yo vehicle) in a matter of 6 months, anyone should be able to(over 18 months if it takes that long for them) 

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Just now, beni said:

Lol, what?

 

Must be nice to have a spare 30-60g lying around. :huh:

People live beyond their means... if you can’t afford a 30g vehicle, you shouldn’t be buying it. You should buy something for $10,000 then save for a couple years until you can buy the 30G one.

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Just now, Standing_Tall#37 said:

It’s created this bubble we’re living on, and it’s about to burst. 

 

 And I was able to come up with $42,000 (for a 4yo vehicle) in a matter of 6 months, anyone should be able to(over 18 months if it takes that long for them) 

The entire world is on that so called bubble. Financing isn't the issue however over allowance on financing is a problem I can acknowledge for sure. Someone making $45K a year should be financing an Escape not an Escalade. The problem is everyone wants to be a peacock and show off to their friends, neighbors and randoms on the street in order to obtain some type of validation.

The thing I see the most that puzzles me is single young adult males coming in buying trucks with no work need for one, no off roading habits or any other reason for it to be a necessity. They just want to flex in front of their "bros". 

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Just now, Magikal said:

The entire world is on that so called bubble. Financing isn't the issue however over allowance on financing is a problem I can acknowledge for sure. Someone making $45K a year should be financing an Escape not an Escalade. The problem is everyone wants to be a peacock and show off to their friends, neighbors and randoms on the street in order to obtain some type of validation.

The thing I see the most that puzzles me is single young adult males coming in buying trucks with no work need for one, no off roading habits or any other reason for it to be a necessity. They just want to flex in front of their "bros". 

When I make the 10 hour drive south I often wonder that too. To me a 4x2 truck is completely useless, same with a v6. But southerners seem to have them in abundance.  I mean it’s not like they’re loading firewood, or hauling bails with these pavement princess’. Hell, even if the south has more than a few days of snow/year I could understand it.

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2 minutes ago, Magikal said:

The entire world is on that so called bubble. Financing isn't the issue however over allowance on financing is a problem I can acknowledge for sure. Someone making $45K a year should be financing an Escape not an Escalade. The problem is everyone wants to be a peacock and show off to their friends, neighbors and randoms on the street in order to obtain some type of validation.

The thing I see the most that puzzles me is single young adult males coming in buying trucks with no work need for one, no off roading habits or any other reason for it to be a necessity. They just want to flex in front of their "bros". 

Champagne taste on a beer budget, it's shocking how common that is in the automotive industry.

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Just now, falcon45ca said:

Champagne taste on a beer budget, it's shocking how common that is in the automotive industry.

In everything man.

People take the bus because they cant afford a car but need the latest IPhone. Can't invest for a damn but have the latest Yeezys and Beats headphones. The majority of people are suckers for peacocking and there will always be someone waiting to profit from their stupidity. 

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2 minutes ago, Standing_Tall#37 said:

When I make the 10 hour drive south I often wonder that too. To me a 4x2 truck is completely useless, same with a v6. But southerners seem to have them in abundance.  I mean it’s not like they’re loading firewood, or hauling bails with these pavement princess’. Hell, even if the south has more than a few days of snow/year I could understand it.

a 4x2 v6 in the city is ideal for landscapers and small construction jobbers. 

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45 minutes ago, Magikal said:

 Oh and in terms of profit margins in cars, most cars hold less than 5% profit before you come in and try to beat up the store for a better deal.

very similar to the appliance business. 

 

Just to further the discussion a bit, I've been very loyal to where I get my service done. Thats actually got me a long way on negotiations and other issues. E.g., I had a transmission go on a Jeep Liberty and the cause was not initially clear and it could have been linked to poor driving habits (which i don't have, turns out after a lot of forensics it was a super rare master cylinder failure issue). Because I had gone to that dealer for years they gave me the benefit of the doubt right away and fixed it no charge. 

 

 

Edited by Jimmy McGill
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4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

very similar to the appliance business. 

 

Just to further the discussion a bit, I've been very loyal to where I get my service done. Thats actually got me a long way on negotiations and other issues. E.g., I had a transmission go on a Jeep Liberty and the cause was not initially clear and it could have been linked to poor driving habits (which i don't have, turns out after a lot of forensics it was a super rare master cylinder failure issue). Because I had gone to that dealer for years they gave me the benefit of the doubt right away and fixed it no charge. 

 

 

Yup, that's a regular thing in our world. We reward loyal clients all the time.

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