Question- Signing Precedent

[Howisthishappening]

Just because a team decided to overpay their RFA doesnt mean that other RFA and their agents have a case.

 

Basically if someone robs a bank and gets away with it doesnt make it okay to copy that and try to get away with that. You will be hated, you will develop a bad reputation etc.

 

Players hold their pride and reputation above money, as such just because Phoenix for example overpaid for Keler it has 0 impact on rest of RFAs because the GMs can shrug it off as a dumb signing.

 

Would you agree?

Edited September 5, 2019 by Howisthishappening
Updated

[soosoodeff]

i think other gms could see what u see and make offer base on that

Edited September 5, 2019 by soosoodeff

[lmm]

I disagree.

In the real world I would agree, up to a point but this is the NHL.

The NHL is designed for inflation, and is a copy cat league.

Arbitration is designed by the use of "comparable contracts", the opposite of what you are suggesting.

RFA qualifying offers have built in raises.

Every team is competing for the best players or they are not competing for the Stanley cup.

 

What you suggest "should" be true, but who is going to be the GM that says "I know you outscored WIllie Nylander, but we are going to pay you 30% less because Willie is not worth the contract". It is not the way the league is set up. 

I expect many of the current group 2 free agents to hold out.

I do not expect Brock to sign until late November.

THere is going to be bad blood, and the rich teams will probably win the best players at the end of all this.

[Kragar]

57 minutes ago, Howisthishappening said:

Would you agree?

If a co-worker, who gets hired for the same job as you at the same time at the same starting pay, and you both do the job equally well, but your co-worker gets a big raise, do you think you should get it too?

 

Sure, other factors can come into play here (personal greed, sacrifice money over desire for the team to win, etc.) but agents won't shrug it off as a dumb signing, and it takes two parties to sign the contract.

 

Here's hoping this doesn't mess it up for Boeser's deal, and both sides come away happy when the ink dries.

[King Heffy]

It's gotta be within reason.  You don't see AHLers demanding 6 million because that's what LE is making.

[the grinder]

1 hour ago, Howisthishappening said:

Just because a team decided to overpay their RFA doesnt mean that other RFA and their agents have a case.

 

Basically if someone robs a bank and gets away with it doesnt make it okay to copy that and try to get away with that. You will be hated, you will develop a bad reputation etc.

 

Players hold their pride and reputation above money, as such just because Phoenix for example overpaid for Keler it has 0 impact on rest of RFAs because the GMs can shrug it off as a dumb signing.

 

Would you agree?

lol robbing a bank ,  its not robbing anyone if they hand you a check ,   it business now  , its a young mans game now , after an elc you would want to make as much money as you could  too , every rfa signing affects the next rfa signing,  it called market value .,  7.25 for keller   8.5 for aho   kiss that 7 at 4 years for boesser good bye now  it gonna be 7.5 to 8 now 

[Azzy]

5 hours ago, Howisthishappening said:

Just because a team decided to overpay their RFA doesnt mean that other RFA and their agents have a case.

 

Basically if someone robs a bank and gets away with it doesnt make it okay to copy that and try to get away with that. You will be hated, you will develop a bad reputation etc.

 

Players hold their pride and reputation above money, as such just because Phoenix for example overpaid for Keler it has 0 impact on rest of RFAs because the GMs can shrug it off as a dumb signing.

 

Would you agree?

I wouldn't agree, because that Keller deal is a fantastic one for Arizona. The most troublesome RFA signings in the last couple of years have been William Nylander (who by that point should have settled for a bridge deal with reduced term) and Kevin Labanc (who was just plain stupid, signing for such a low AAV when even $4m would have looked like a bargain).

 

Were I Jim Benning, I would use examples such as:

 

Teuvo Teravainen (signed January 21st 2019)

Contract: 5 years, $5.4m AAV

GP: 360 (Boeser 140)

G: 76 (Boeser 59)

A: 150 (Boeser 57)

Pts: 226 (Boeser 116)

Reason: Last two seasons has outscored Boeser, and has 40 games of playoff experience

 

Dylan Larkin (signed August 10th 2018)

Contract: 6 years, $6.1m AAV

GP: 318 (Boeser 140)

G: 88 (Boeser 59)

A: 125 (Boeser 57)

Pts: 213 (Boeser 116)

Reason: Last two seasons has outscored Boeser, and is the future Red Wings' captain

 

While inflation can account for a slight increase to Boeser's contract, who would you rather have - Teravainen on that deal, or Boeser on some 8x8 deal?

 

[Free-Unit]

 @AzzyYour details are moot. Teravainen > Boeser. I would take Teuvo at 8x8 over Brock at 5x5.4 any day of the year.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Free-Unit

[goalie13]

9 hours ago, Howisthishappening said:

Players hold their pride and reputation above money, as such just because Phoenix for example overpaid for Keler it has 0 impact on rest of RFAs because the GMs can shrug it off as a dumb signing.

That only works if the one contract is an outlier.  If there are several players with similar stats being paid $6M, but then there's one guy making $8M, then the argument can be made that the market is at the $6M level.

 

A good example of that is in 2008 when the Leafs signed Jeff Finger to a 4 year, $14M deal.  His comparables were nowhere near that price and it didn't really affect the rest of the free agent market.

 

Another good example is when the Oilers started signing guys coming off their ELCs to 7x$6M deals.  It can be argued that did have an impact on the market.

[mpt]

Yes, I agree, but it gives a base for the agent to start at.  Just because someone overpays doesn’t mean someone else will pay it, but realtor’s will still use it as a comparable asking price, then you see which side folds, depend son how much they like the house, or the player, versus how desperate is the player to play or the house needing to be sold

[Toews]

1 hour ago, goalie13 said:

That only works if the one contract is an outlier.  If there are several players with similar stats being paid $6M, but then there's one guy making $8M, then the argument can be made that the market is at the $6M level.

 

A good example of that is in 2008 when the Leafs signed Jeff Finger to a 4 year, $14M deal.  His comparables were nowhere near that price and it didn't really affect the rest of the free agent market.

 

Another good example is when the Oilers started signing guys coming off their ELCs to 7x$6M deals.  It can be argued that did have an impact on the market.

Can't conflate RFA and UFA contracts. RFA contracts are negotiated based on precedent. UFA contracts are negotiated based on highest bidder wins. 

[Tre Mac]

Which is why asked in the Keller thread are GM's really this daft or spineless?  And people wonder why this league shuts down every 8 years.  

[Dr. Crossbar]

14 hours ago, Howisthishappening said:

Just because a team decided to overpay their RFA doesnt mean that other RFA and their agents have a case.

 

Basically if someone robs a bank and gets away with it doesnt make it okay to copy that and try to get away with that. You will be hated, you will develop a bad reputation etc.

 

Players hold their pride and reputation above money, as such just because Phoenix for example overpaid for Keler it has 0 impact on rest of RFAs because the GMs can shrug it off as a dumb signing.

 

Would you agree?

The way I see it, you're thinking too much with your emotions. You've got three things here that each have unique dynamics and shouldn't be lumped together.

 

1. If a team overpays their RFA, it doesn't mean other RFAs and agents HAVE a case. But because of what the market bears in an overpayment and sets a new ceiling, other RFAs and agents CAN make a case. There's a difference. And depending on the RFA, others may have better cases to make.

 

2. The players aren't robbing anyone. They have a right to negotiate what the market will bear and what they believe is fair value. It's business, not personal. It is absolutely okay for a player to make comparisons (copy) and try to get as much money as possible. The consequences of that may have a negative impact but that's on the player. If a team is willing to overpay, that's on the team and they need to own the consequences good or bad.

 

Depending on the circumstances, it may not make it morally right, fans may not like it, it may not be good for the game, but it is okay to use other RFAs to make a case.

 

Also, when you use words like "make it okay" and "they will be hated" or "develop a bad reputation" ... those are rooted in personal emotions.

 

3. Some players hold their pride and reputation above money, others are more motivated by money. It's just human nature. Some players want to maximize their window of opportunity to make as much money as possible while others are more flexible. The Keller signing has some impact but that also depends on individual situations and dynamics. Some GMs may shrug it off while others may feel a greater impact. It depends.

 

I see what you're getting at and agree with an underlying principle or moral theme you're trying to convey, but there's so much more to the reality of it all. 

[Duodenum]

10 hours ago, Azzy said:

I wouldn't agree, because that Keller deal is a fantastic one for Arizona. The most troublesome RFA signings in the last couple of years have been William Nylander (who by that point should have settled for a bridge deal with reduced term) and Kevin Labanc (who was just plain stupid, signing for such a low AAV when even $4m would have looked like a bargain).

 

Were I Jim Benning, I would use examples such as:

 

Teuvo Teravainen (signed January 21st 2019)

Contract: 5 years, $5.4m AAV

GP: 360 (Boeser 140)

G: 76 (Boeser 59)

A: 150 (Boeser 57)

Pts: 226 (Boeser 116)

Reason: Last two seasons has outscored Boeser, and has 40 games of playoff experience

 

Dylan Larkin (signed August 10th 2018)

Contract: 6 years, $6.1m AAV

GP: 318 (Boeser 140)

G: 88 (Boeser 59)

A: 125 (Boeser 57)

Pts: 213 (Boeser 116)

Reason: Last two seasons has outscored Boeser, and is the future Red Wings' captain

 

While inflation can account for a slight increase to Boeser's contract, who would you rather have - Teravainen on that deal, or Boeser on some 8x8 deal?

 

TT is definitely severely underpaid but his contract is an outlier compared to all the other RFA's. 

Carolina got a gift there. 

[Howisthishappening]

Everyone in the hockey world is baffled by this summers RFAs.

 

Money is never been an issue or a object for these guys, they just played  a kids game longer than others when others dropped out for family or girlfriend or school or career prospects these guys kept playing. They play cause they are addicted to the game,  cause their heart is in the game.

 

Money is a nice bonus but its never been a conversation because hockey players love hockey first. Its disgusting to see players wanting money when they need to realize they are playing a fun game for a living and being paid what the owners says what they are worth. Pathetic to hold out for money, ppl will hate them for it, fans will never accept greedy pos for players.

[Howisthishappening]

The players aren't robbing anyone. They have a right to negotiate what the market will bear and what they believe is fair value. It's business, not personal. It is absolutely okay for a player to make comparisons (copy) and try to get as much money as possible

7 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said:

The way I see it, you're thinking too much with your emotions. You've got three things here that each have unique dynamics and shouldn't be lumped together.

 

1. If a team overpays their RFA, it doesn't mean other RFAs and agents HAVE a case. But because of what the market bears in an overpayment and sets a new ceiling, other RFAs and agents CAN make a case. There's a difference. And depending on the RFA, others may have better cases to make.

 

2. The players aren't robbing anyone. They have a right to negotiate what the market will bear and what they believe is fair value. It's business, not personal. It is absolutely okay for a player to make comparisons (copy) and try to get as much money as possible. The consequences of that may have a negative impact but that's on the player. If a team is willing to overpay, that's on the team and they need to own the consequences good or bad.

 

Depending on the circumstances, it may not make it morally right, fans may not like it, it may not be good for the game, but it is okay to use other RFAs to make a case.

 

Also, when you use words like "make it okay" and "they will be hated" or "develop a bad reputation" ... those are rooted in personal emotions.

 

3. Some players hold their pride and reputation above money, others are more motivated by money. It's just human nature. Some players want to maximize their window of opportunity to make as much money as possible while others are more flexible. The Keller signing has some impact but that also depends on individual situations and dynamics. Some GMs may shrug it off while others may feel a greater impact. It depends.

 

I see what you're getting at and agree with an underlying principle or moral theme you're trying to convey, but there's so much more to the reality of it all. 

Uh hockey isnt business to players, its a business to the owners. Hockey players arent business ppl they are jocks, plain and simple. They are kids who stuck around the hockey rink when  everyone else went to get real jobs and an education.

 

Business has nothing to do with it, the owners should decide what they make period. Its like saying a McDonalds employee is a businessman cause he works for McDonalds its not business they are playing  a game and having fun doing it. Take what you are given and dont ask for more  tons of mellenials these days think they deserve high salaries but they dont.

[Fan since 82]

2 hours ago, Howisthishappening said:

Everyone in the hockey world is baffled by this summers RFAs.

 

Money is never been an issue or a object for these guys, they just played  a kids game longer than others when others dropped out for family or girlfriend or school or career prospects these guys kept playing. They play cause they are addicted to the game,  cause their heart is in the game.

 

Money is a nice bonus but its never been a conversation because hockey players love hockey first. Its disgusting to see players wanting money when they need to realize they are playing a fun game for a living and being paid what the owners says what they are worth. Pathetic to hold out for money, ppl will hate them for it, fans will never accept greedy pos for players.

While agree that it's disgusting how much athletes and others in the entertainment industry are paid, they deserve what the market will pay them. Why shouldn't they get paid! These guys aren't just the ones who lasted longest playing a game. The guys in the NHL, even the fringe guys, are among the most talented players in the world. They didn't just get there by fluke.

[Howisthishappening]

10 minutes ago, Fan since 82 said:

While agree that it's disgusting how much athletes and others in the entertainment industry are paid, they deserve what the market will pay them. Why shouldn't they get paid! These guys aren't just the ones who lasted longest playing a game. The guys in the NHL, even the fringe guys, are among the most talented players in the world. They didn't just get there by fluke.

Uh not sure i agree..its pretty much certain that the parents who can put up with 5 am practices and are crazy enough to stick through their kids hockey dedication from about 6 through high school and college will end up in the nhl.. huge odds for those who actually want to do it, its not necessarily talent its time invested if you do something for 10000 hours youll be an expert.

[Fan since 82]

3 minutes ago, Howisthishappening said:

Uh not sure i agree..its pretty much certain that the parents who can put up with 5 am practices and are crazy enough to stick through their kids hockey dedication from about 6 through high school and college will end up in the nhl.. huge odds for those who actually want to do it, its not necessarily talent its time invested if you do something for 10000 hours youll be an expert.

Don't think so. I could spend 1000s of hours studying physics, and while I would certainly learn a lot about it I would never reach the elite of that discipline. Not sure if you are being super sarcastic or if you really don't have a clue. It sounds like you don't have a clue.