Why the Jake Hate????

[5nothincanucksohno]

Really just prospective on my end now - Jake is likely never going to "figure it out" but on a value contract (like his current one) he is a valuable third or fourth liner who can play with speed, fore-check, and potentially pot 15 to 20 goals. If  he starts trying to demand $2.5MM plus then it's time to consider moving on. Until that point I think the team should keep utilizing him for what he is. 

 

I do think he is the type of play who will be valuable come playoff time (he can offer up punishing hits and for some reason he gets under the skin of opposing players).

[UFCanuck]

Hopefully we pull off a Shmaltz for Strome/Perlini type of deal. Chayka is giving high draft picks away.

 

Virtanen/Goldobin for Chychrun.

[wai_lai416]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:55 PM, Snapshot85 said:

So today I was listening to a popular canucks radio show. The 2 hosts suggested that jake virtanen is one of the 5 canucks being shopped right now. Their view is that if we get offered a second round pick to jump on it. 

 

Seriously that was their view.

 

Now this leads me to believe that us as a whole is sour on the kid. 

 

I like Jake I'll admit, but I'm not in the jake virtanen or bust camp.

 

But a second round pick is ridiculous... he is at least worth a first. In fact hes worth more than a first round pick. 

I will back this up with facts.

 

Forwards are drafted to put the puck in the net. 

Out of Jake's draft class 25 forwards were drafted in the first round. I'll use his draft class alone because they are apples to apples in age and development.

 

Of those 25 forwards drafted in the first round.... only 9 ... count it 9 scored more nhl goals than Jake in 18-19. 15 players found the back of the net less often.  This means hes well above 50% so better than a random first round pick. Also the goals scored and nhl success rate of the second rounders is weak at best.

Adding to Jake's value is.... a few truths... hes improved every year, hes top 3 fastest skaters in the nhl ( subjective I know) and he hits like a moose when he wants to. Hes on a cheap contract !

And to add to his value...he can help a team now... today!!

When he realizes that this is a job.. and hes not just a kid playing a game anymore... he will take it all a bit more serious  and it will all click.  

 

So to suggest hes worth a second round pick is ludacris. 

 

I know we all had super high expectations of him when he was picked..... maybe he hasnt lived up to our lofty expectations.... 

 

But a second round pick. 

Coming from hockey guys like that. 

 

Shows me ... we should all lighten up on jake a bit.

 

Let's see what he does in 19/20 before giving him away. 

 

Thanks all

 

first off he's the second worse player of the top 10 pick behind del colle

production wise goals aside he's he's 17th out of 25 forwards that was drafted points wise

he also happens to have the second lowest points per game of any forward drafted in the 1st round that even played in the NHL

what team will give a 1st round pick for Virtanen who probably doesn't even make the team if he wasn't the 6th overall pick. he pick and chooses when he plays big despite his size. been critized multiple times about his work ethics. 3 of his goals last year were empty net goals so i dunno if that's really much of an improvement? +1 goal a season i guess he'll hit 20 goals when he's in his early 30s. 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, playboi19 said:

Hopefully we pull off a Shmaltz for Strome/Perlini type of deal. Chayka is giving high draft picks away.

 

Virtanen/Goldobin for Chychrun.

Jake for Poolparty?  

[Jester13]

It's like his brain shuts off any sense of hustle as soon as he steps on the ice. If only he would just continue to move his feet at all times.

[Pickly]

I think Jake will go down as a player that had a ton of tools to be a successful top 10 pick in this league but never had it between the ears and ended up having a subpar career mired by what could have been.

You can’t teach work ethic or drive. Everyone around here hates Milan Lucic but I’ll tell you all I played against him many years ago and he was a brutal skater with with a massive frame with a rocket of a shot. That was it. Little did I know this bender playing on the 3rd line in Delta would carve out a fantastic NHL career more or less based on perseverance and determination. 

I still have a bit of hope for Virtanen to pan out but unfortunately I highly doubt the organization is going to give him many more chances for him to prove himself. 

[Snapshot85]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

first off he's the second worse player of the top 10 pick behind del colle

production wise goals aside he's he's 17th out of 25 forwards that was drafted points wise

he also happens to have the second lowest points per game of any forward drafted in the 1st round that even played in the NHL

what team will give a 1st round pick for Virtanen who probably doesn't even make the team if he wasn't the 6th overall pick. he pick and chooses when he plays big despite his size. been critized multiple times about his work ethics. 3 of his goals last year were empty net goals so i dunno if that's really much of an improvement? +1 goal a season i guess he'll hit 20 goals when he's in his early 30s. 

 

Actually jake was number 10/25 in nhl goal production vs those guys in 2018/19.  Points matter far less for forwards than goals.

 

15 goals is reasonable for a first rounder.

 

2nd rounders rarly make the nhl in any permanent fashion 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Snapshot85

[Ballisticsports.]

5 hours ago, Hindustan Smyl said:

I’m not sure what to think about Jake.

 

He clearly has the tools, but he’s a mental midget.  He doesn’t think the game well, and his off ice work ethic is clearly questionable.   He’s still young enough to “get it,” but I’m not really sure if he’s going to.   I was very disappointed by his first day at Camp this season.   Jake is and was in a position where he absolutely needed to come to camp guns ablazing, and he showed up like this instead.

 

Jake needs to step up.   I still want to hold onto Jake, given his potential, but I do believe that the tough love being thrown his way is completely justified.

It would be tougher on Benning,  if every right winger was vastly outplaying him and were in superior shape (Boeser.Loui, Goldy, Motte, Miller)

I wonder what he would do?

Would you hold onto him for potential still, over others who were showing up?

Demoting others or putting on waivers players who out performed him would send what kind of message about your training camp?

When you have been a bottom feeder for so long , you want work ethic, tenacity and drive from your players

But would they waive a top draft pick for nothing? (not likely)

8th O.A.Pouliot is now a 25 yr old defenceman and everyone knows that defencemen take longer to develop

Yet at 23 he was traded to the Canucks for Andrey Pedan and a 2018 fourth-round pick (Must have been hard for the Pens to give up that hope as well)

 

[Primal Optimist]

No hate here, when i was at the Friday bag skate in Victoria and then the scrimmages and further bag skates Saturday and SUnday, VIRTS was looking good, a bit maybe, above the body fat index curve, but looking good overall. I honestly thought that two 'regulars' just lost the short straw pull to see who would be on the ice with the youngins as mentors, but people read into it what they will. IMO it was fair and probably a message that a young man needed to get to improve his career. Nothing more. 

 

Love the guy as a Canuck and I think he is going to be a part of something special for us. 

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, Pickly said:

I think Jake will go down as a player that had a ton of tools to be a successful top 10 pick in this league but never had it between the ears and ended up having a subpar career mired by what could have been.

You can’t teach work ethic or drive. Everyone around here hates Milan Lucic but I’ll tell you all I played against him many years ago and he was a brutal skater with with a massive frame with a rocket of a shot. That was it. Little did I know this bender playing on the 3rd line in Delta would carve out a fantastic NHL career more or less based on perseverance and determination. 

I still have a bit of hope for Virtanen to pan out but unfortunately I highly doubt the organization is going to give him many more chances for him to prove himself. 

This, unfortunately, is why a lot of our bubble players are finding themselves fighting for a job. This team has been fighting this type of culture for generations and this unrelentless work ethic and drive has been missing since the Linden/Bure days.

I have said it before that when our team was extremely talented, they would take nights off and lose against bottom feeder teams. This, to me, is inexcusable.

Players such as Goldy,Virt and Baert are extremely talented, but lack that intensity and internal determination to work hard every shift and win at all costs.

Look at the improvements made by our young guys, Petey coming in stronger this year and Boes looking like his skating is greatly improved over last year. 

Remember Bo's accomplishments over the years? Faceoffs?Skating?Board work? These type of players need no one to tell them to work harder or practice more.

Benning and TG know that it takes strong character players to be successful and there actions have shown that.

Love Virt but his time is running out as Hutton and Pouliot know very well. There comes a time when the coaches have tried to motivate long enough and its just time to cut your losses. I am not sure that time has arrived for Jake yet but it is coming very close.

[Hairy Kneel]

Jake needs a shorter leash, maybe more with his off ice professionalism for starters. He can't be warming up as the game goes along. Can that type of desperation be taught? 

[Qwags]

I can't stress enough how much I want Shotgun Jake to succeed. But I've a feeling that patience is running thin within the organization.

[alt kilgore]

The thing is Jake should have already been putting in the effort and consistency two seasons ago. He should have been building up his resume so that today, we'd be talking about the core five, not the core four.  Its come down to the last chance saloon. He'd better strap on his shotguns and step into that saloon all guns blazing.  Its now or never I'm afraid. 

 

I really don't have high hopes though.  Its a character issue. Some players are the opposite, like Petey, or Brock, or Burrows. They are driven to get better every day, and do whatever it takes to get there. Jake plays like he thinks he is already "there".  Its sad to think he may be out of the NHL in a couple of years, and in ten years, will look back thinking "shoulda coulda woulda".

[wai_lai416]

14 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

Actually jake was number 10/25 in nhl goal production vs those guys in 2018/19.  Points matter far less for forwards than goals.

 

15 goals is reasonable for a first rounder.

 

2nd rounders rarly make the nhl in any permanent fashion 

so you are saying Henrik points doesn't matter much compared to Daniel because 80% of his points total are all assist? i'm sure 99 out of 100 GM would take Henrik over Daniel in a heartbeat if they were to choose one or the other. that's like saying Ovechkin is way better than Crosby coz ovechkin's point are mostly goals and crosby are mostly assist... 

[Alflives]

10 hours ago, kilgore said:

The thing is Jake should have already been putting in the effort and consistency two seasons ago. He should have been building up his resume so that today, we'd be talking about the core five, not the core four.  Its come down to the last chance saloon. He'd better strap on his shotguns and step into that saloon all guns blazing.  Its now or never I'm afraid. 

 

I really don't have high hopes though.  Its a character issue. Some players are the opposite, like Petey, or Brock, or Burrows. They are driven to get better every day, and do whatever it takes to get there. Jake plays like he thinks he is already "there".  Its sad to think he may be out of the NHL in a couple of years, and in ten years, will look back thinking "shoulda coulda woulda".

Maybe we need to accept it’s just not in Jake’s DNA to compete?  If he was a competitor, would he show up to camp not in tip top shape!  

[Snapshot85]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

so you are saying Henrik points doesn't matter much compared to Daniel because 80% of his points total are all assist? i'm sure 99 out of 100 GM would take Henrik over Daniel in a heartbeat if they were to choose one or the other. that's like saying Ovechkin is way better than Crosby coz ovechkin's point are mostly goals and crosby are mostly assist... 

I wont comment on the sedins.

As for crosby/Ovechkin...... Crosby brings alot of things to the table....but in terms of points only.... Yeah Ovechkin is more valuable .

 

The only things that wins hockey games is goals.

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Snapshot85 said:

I wont comment on the sedins.

As for crosby/Ovechkin...... Crosby brings alot of things to the table....but in terms of points only.... Yeah Ovechkin is more valuable .

 

The only things that wins hockey games is goals.

lol what? so a player with 15 goals 10 assist is more vaiulable than a guy with 10 goals and 40 assist? so i guess if a player does all the hard work making all the plays happened but a player bangs in the garbage goal or rebound is the valuable one and the other guy is not as valuable even though without him the goal wouldn't even happen? what kind of flawed logic is this? i love ovechkin and i'm not a big fan of crosby.. but to say ovechkin is more valuable than crosby? i'm sure 100% of all hockey people out there would take crosby over ovechkin no questions asked

 

if goal scoring is the most important stats.. then why is Winnipeg not eagered to sign him to a massive 10mil+ contract coz according to you he's more valuable to the team then say mitch marner is

[Snapshot85]

3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol what? so a player with 15 goals 10 assist is more vaiulable than a guy with 10 goals and 40 assist? so i guess if a player does all the hard work making all the plays happened but a player bangs in the garbage goal or rebound is the valuable one and the other guy is not as valuable even though without him the goal wouldn't even happen? what kind of flawed logic is this? i love ovechkin and i'm not a big fan of crosby.. but to say ovechkin is more valuable than crosby? i'm sure 100% of all hockey people out there would take crosby over ovechkin no questions asked

 

if goal scoring is the most important stats.. then why is Winnipeg not eagered to sign him to a massive 10mil+ contract coz according to you he's more valuable to the team then say mitch marner is

No.... it's not flawed logic. Points are great.... and assists are good...hits are good...defensive play is good... leadership is good. There's lots of traits that make a player good. But most important stat for value for a forward is goals plane in simple. 

 

Without goals you simply cannot win.

A player can score by himself

But a player needs at least one other player to put up a assist..... 

In theory... the assist was not needed to score the goal in the first place , giving a assist no value.

 

Yes I know it's a bit abstract and not real world .

 

But the point is that goals are what win hockey games.

 

I challange you to tell me one time in the history of hockey that a assist by itself ever one a hockey game...... because I can sure tell you countless times where a goal without a assist won a game.

 

In my opinion

Edited September 25, 2019 by Snapshot85

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 minutes ago, Snapshot85 said:

No.... it's not flawed logic. Points are great.... and assists are good...hits are good...defensive play is good... leadership is good. There's lots of traits that make a player good. But most important stat for value for a forward is goals plane in simple. 

 

Without goals you simply cannot win.

A player can score by himself

But a player needs at least one other player to put up a assist..... 

In theory... the assist was not needed to score the goal in the first place , giving a assist no value.

 

Yes I know it's a bit abstract and not real world .

 

But the point is that goals are what win hockey games.

 

In my opinion

 

Tell that to hank who won the Hart trophy while being outside the top 25 in goals scored.

 

Draisaitl out scored McDavid last year. Guess that’s why Leon makes more....wait.....yeah you’re opinion is wrong. 

 

 

 

 

[Snapshot85]

7 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Tell that to hank who won the Hart trophy while being outside the top 25 in goals scored.

 

Draisaitl out scored McDavid last year. Guess that’s why Leon makes more....wait.....yeah you’re opinion is wrong. 

 

 

 

 

When's the last time a trophy won a hockey game??? 

 

Look I'm not sayin other stats dont matter. And mcdavid brings so many things to the table other than points. What I'm saying that for forwards goals matter significantly more in general .

 

I challange you to tell me when a assist by itself ever won a hockey game in the history of hockey.?? Never once.

 

Goals by themselves have won many's of hockey games.