The Gaudette Conundrum

[spook007]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Exactly.  Both sides have merit - why possibly lose a guy to waivers (although Goldobin won’t necessarily get picked up at this time of year) and whittle away some of our new found depth.... but also why go against what’s been said in the past if someone earns a spot room will be made (Gagne for example).  That’s also a big picture precedent.   Both sides affect the big picture.   Playing AG will help the team win at this point - TG was very non-committal if I had to guess I don’t think he will make the team and will be sent down and be the first call-up when injuries inevitably occur but I could be wrong (and hope I am - I think he deserves it and also think we will win more with him in the lineup).   There’s just too many forwards and he can get sent down safely.   I do think based on play so far - he deserves a spot before Leivo, Goldobin, Motte, JV and probably LE.   He also achieved a lot considering he wasn’t gifted top six time like some of the above. 

This was also, what I got from TG's interview... 

[ItTakesAnArmy]

This "problem" has two sides to it.

 

The good side is that finally there is a young player, draft pick, other than the stars, Boeser and Pettersson, that looks to be kicking down the door for a spot on the team. Gaud clearly outplayed over half of the supporting cast of players and SHOULD be on this group, at least to start the season, with a regular $&!#.

 

Now the bad side is that this management group has so screwed up in the signings and contracts that they are capped out AND have players nobody wants, at least not the players that the team might want to let go.

 

Management really painted themselves into a corner.

 

There are only a very few players other teams may want but if they consider moving Virtanen then they are admitting they had an epic failure of evaluating talent and blew another top 6 pick. They would need to recoup another 1rst round pick to make any Jake deal look anything other than another blunder.

 

This management is so chaotic that better players may need left off the team because they couldn't evaluate hockey talent or negotiate contracts. For all that Gillis is still blamed for clause contracts, suddenly these Benning contracts are covered up.

 

Now a good player may have to pay the price for incompetence or the team has to take another hit in moving a player.

Edited September 27, 2019 by ItTakesAnArmy

[alt kilgore]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

It’s his being an alien.  “There can be only one”.  

Them's fighting words Alf.  Don't make me have to strap on my Laser Cat

 

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Edited September 27, 2019 by kilgore

[theo5789]

1 minute ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

This "problem" has two sides to it.

 

The good side is that finally there is a young player, draft pick, other than the stars, Boeser and Pettersson, that looks to be kicking down the door for a spot on the team. Gaud clearly outplayed over half of the supporting cast of players and SHOULD be on this group, at least to start the season, with a regular $&!#.

 

Now the bad side is that this management group has so screwed up in the signings and contracts that they are capped out AND have players nobody wants, at least not the players that the team might want to let go.

 

Management really painted themselves into a corner.

 

There are only a very few players other teams may want but if they consider moving Virtanen then they are admitting they had an epic failure of evaluating talent and blew another top 6 pick. They would need to recoup another 1rst round pick to make any Jake deal look anything other than another blunder.

 

This management is so chaotic that better players may need left off the team because they couldn't evaluate hockey talent or negotiate contracts. For all that Gillis is still blamed for clause contracts, suddenly these Benning contracts are covered up.

 

Now a good player may have to pay the price for incompetence or the team has to take another hit in moving a player.

If we have players that no one wants, then we waive them and they clear and we still have them as call up depth. The cap won't be an issue when we are down to a 23 man roster. Management has a tough decision ahead for what to do with Gaudette, but this is a good problem to have. We have prospects developing well and forcing these tough decisions. If it was easy, it means there's not enough depth. We could trade a decent player rather than a waiver guy and get a decent return. Benning has mentioned he would like to get back that 1st rounder that he dealt. This is just a part of Benning's drafting that has added talent and depth to the team he had inherited that was becoming barebones. Another step in the right direction.

 

The problem is people here are taking it too literally that if they perform well in preseason (7 games), then they are locked for a roster spot for the season. Preseason is a showcase not an audition. Gaudette showed well and could very well make the team, but then management has to decide on another player to waive. Or they can send Gaudette down, get him big minutes and gives them more time to work out a trade (even if it's a lesser return than expected, the value is to get Gaudette into the lineup) or possibly an injury to occur (which we hope doesn't occur, but is a real possibility). This happened to Stecher and he's had a spot locked since, I expect no different for Gaudette. Gaudette, if he's a professional, would understand the situation and continue being a pro about it through the process, Stecher did and has never complained about being sent down.

[spook007]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I don’t like Petey, and think he should be traded.  

Blasphemy....

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by spook007

[HockeyHarry]

Gaud is NHL ready. 

 

but this comes down too asset management.

 

Gaud is a 3rd line center unfortunately right now there’s not a 3rd line center spot until Sutter is moved or injuried again as always.

 

Utica is best, he gets top line mins and can special team  pk pp . Until there’s that 3rd line Center spot on the Canucks for him.

 

the message is this is a professional sport and management needs to use all asset wisely and build a cup team. All Players are assets and they should know that, because they get paid big bucks for it. Players need to be professional cash their pay checks and continue to be assets with big bank accounts.

 

Gaud will be fine if he stays in NHL or Utica. 

 

All in all Canucks need to some how trade someone and gain a low pick or anything and keep growing the forever circle of life of player assets. 

 

Its like franchise mode so deal with it.

 

Build a cup team Jimbo.

Edited September 27, 2019 by HockeyHarry

[ItTakesAnArmy]

6 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

If we have players that no one wants, then we waive them and they clear and we still have them as call up depth. The cap won't be an issue when we are down to a 23 man roster. Management has a tough decision ahead for what to do with Gaudette, but this is a good problem to have. We have prospects developing well and forcing these tough decisions. If it was easy, it means there's not enough depth. We could trade a decent player rather than a waiver guy and get a decent return. Benning has mentioned he would like to get back that 1st rounder that he dealt. This is just a part of Benning's drafting that has added talent and depth to the team he had inherited that was becoming barebones. Another step in the right direction.

 

The problem is people here are taking it too literally that if they perform well in preseason (7 games), then they are locked for a roster spot for the season. Preseason is a showcase not an audition. Gaudette showed well and could very well make the team, but then management has to decide on another player to waive. Or they can send Gaudette down, get him big minutes and gives them more time to work out a trade (even if it's a lesser return than expected, the value is to get Gaudette into the lineup) or possibly an injury to occur (which we hope doesn't occur, but is a real possibility). This happened to Stecher and he's had a spot locked since, I expect no different for Gaudette. Gaudette, if he's a professional, would understand the situation and continue being a pro about it through the process, Stecher did and has never complained about being sent down.

if he's a professional, would understand the situation and continue being a pro about it through the process

$925,000 on the big team, $70,000 in Utica, because of others mistakes.

 

This is just a part of Benning's drafting that has added talent and depth - Over 200 losses over the last 4 years, talent and depth? Maxed out cap every year though!

Why is Benning's drafting thought to be so good? Look around the league EVERY team has more draft picks from the last six drafts playing than the Canucks, some from just the last three years. How can teams drafting so much later have so much more success?

In the entire Canuck history there have been 21 top 8 picks Benning has 4 of them, almost 20% of all top 8 picks. Of the other 17 only 3 can be said to have been outright bombs, 3 out of 17.Benning was hired as the scouting guru, the guy that was going to find more players, faster because he had all this insight and evaluating skill superior to others. Hmmmm, maybe not so much eh? Other teams ahead of the Canucks must just be getting lucky all the time or the Canucks just have bad luck.

 

Now go into names of all the players that are not being managed by the Canucks, those without contracts learning systems there than the Canucks play, those not under the watchful eye of the team.

 

Whatever, we wait to see the next incredible move, truly and with hope, it helps the team, I fear he trades a young asset to help move a vet or something. "Hey everyone is happy,  let's throw Tryamkin in with a deal to move Beagle or Schaller, or maybe another draft pick or two, they are just crap shoots anyway"

[Jtutino]

We need every point we can get this year. Let's play the players that give us the best chance of winning right now. In pro sports I'm a firm believer of riding the hot hand and Gaud is playing as well as anyone right now.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Jtutino

[BrockBoester]

5 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

I'm confused.  Where's the Tryamkin for Captain option?  

Regular season is looming. It's all business from here until mid-June for me :D

 

Great discussion here, looks like the majority agree that Gaudette should be sticking around

 

Very interesting points raised by lots of people in here too, great for a mid-afternoon lunchtime read! Thanks guys

Edited September 27, 2019 by BrockBoester

[Tre Mac]

6 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

He’s earned his spot. The guy has outplayed most of the main roster. There’s nothing saying we absolutely have to start him at center. He can play on the wing to start if need be and ease his way into the position. The absolute worst thing we could do is deny him his spot after screaming “Everyone has a shot!” From the rooftops this entire time. Not only could it damage the relationship with the player, but it could hurt the reputation of the franchise.

 

Now for the controversial part...

 

It needs to be added that NOTHING outside of goaltending has developed in Utica. Our development, quite frankly, has been crap for a long time now. No impact NHL skater has actually been developed in our farm system since about the mid 00’s, when the core of the 2011 team was just starting to come together. Every player since has either been a total bust, partial bust, or is a work in progress, with the exception of Markstrom and possibly Demko (and goaltenders are anomalies themselves, so they don’t really count, since we’re talking about skaters). Every impact player to come along since then has arrived NHL ready.  I have absolutely no faith in our ability to develop young players from the farm team. Maybe that will change in the next few years, but as of now, if a player looks to be NHL ready, there’s no sense in risking exposing said player to a farm system with such a terrible track record.

Agreed

[Tre Mac]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

Them's fighting words Alf.  Don't make me have to strap on my Laser Cat

 

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[Monteeun]

46 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

if he's a professional, would understand the situation and continue being a pro about it through the process

$925,000 on the big team, $70,000 in Utica, because of others mistakes.

 

This is just a part of Benning's drafting that has added talent and depth - Over 200 losses over the last 4 years, talent and depth? Maxed out cap every year though!

Why is Benning's drafting thought to be so good? Look around the league EVERY team has more draft picks from the last six drafts playing than the Canucks, some from just the last three years. How can teams drafting so much later have so much more success?

In the entire Canuck history there have been 21 top 8 picks Benning has 4 of them, almost 20% of all top 8 picks. Of the other 17 only 3 can be said to have been outright bombs, 3 out of 17.Benning was hired as the scouting guru, the guy that was going to find more players, faster because he had all this insight and evaluating skill superior to others. Hmmmm, maybe not so much eh? Other teams ahead of the Canucks must just be getting lucky all the time or the Canucks just have bad luck.

 

Now go into names of all the players that are not being managed by the Canucks, those without contracts learning systems there than the Canucks play, those not under the watchful eye of the team.

 

Whatever, we wait to see the next incredible move, truly and with hope, it helps the team, I fear he trades a young asset to help move a vet or something. "Hey everyone is happy,  let's throw Tryamkin in with a deal to move Beagle or Schaller, or maybe another draft pick or two, they are just crap shoots anyway"

You seem to be picking things from anywhere to fit your narrative.

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, Tre Mac said:

Agreed

CDC is full of them today. First endless Corrado paradoxes, and now chicken salad ones.

Edited September 27, 2019 by aGENT

[Junkyard Dog]

I personally think he should be a winger and would be our best option as our last top 6 winger.

 

He hasn't nearly been as good at defense and he is our worst option on the dot. Playing wing eliminates both those factors and allows him to flourish more offensively.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I personally think he should be a winger and would be our best option as our last top 6 winger.

 

He hasn't nearly been as good at defense and he is our worst option on the dot. Playing wing eliminates both those factors and allows him to flourish more offensively.

So then, is he better served continuing to develop his play at C in Utica or on wing in Vancouver?

 

I don't think that's as obvious of an answer as a lot of CDC seems to think it is.

Edited September 27, 2019 by aGENT

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, aGENT said:

So then, is he better served continuing to develop his play at C in Utica or on wing in Vancouver?

 

I don't think that's as obvious of an answer as a lot of CDC seems to think it is.

It really depends on what the organization wants to develop him as.

 

Up here he can play a top 6 role on the wing but as a C he will be restricted offensively and relegated to more of a checking role since, with all due respect to Gaudette, that 3rd line won't be as good the top 2 lines offensively. There's only so much offensive opportunity to give. I get we want 3 lines that can score but having Sutter healthy and a solid 3rd line is gonna make Horvat's line much more effective offensively which would benefit the team IMO.

 

In Utica he can develop better overall as a C as he can be used in a match up role on top of being the #1 option offensively. Rack up a ton of special team minutes and will probably take a ton of faceoffs. I don't think developing him as a C is a bad idea but if he makes the team this year he should be thrown on the 2nd line RW with Bo and Miller.

 

I see a place for him at #2 RW moving forward though Pod can play LW down the road which could push Ferland to the 3rd line and in we have another winger step up we can push Miller to the 3rd line C.

 

A lot of options to consider. The problem we're having is a pretty good one.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

It really depends on what the organization wants to develop him as.

 

Up here he can play a top 6 role on the wing but as a C he will be restricted offensively and relegated to more of a checking role since, with all due respect to Gaudette, that 3rd line won't be as good the top 2 lines offensively. There's only so much offensive opportunity to give. I get we want 3 lines that can score but having Sutter healthy and a solid 3rd line is gonna make Horvat's line much more effective offensively which would benefit the team IMO.

 

In Utica he can develop better overall as a C as he can be used in a match up role on top of being the #1 option offensively. Rack up a ton of special team minutes and will probably take a ton of faceoffs. I don't think developing him as a C is a bad idea but if he makes the team this year he should be thrown on the 2nd line RW with Bo and Miller.

 

I see a place for him at #2 RW moving forward though Pod can play LW down the road which could push Ferland to the 3rd line and in we have another winger step up we can push Miller to the 3rd line C.

 

A lot of options to consider. The problem we're having is a pretty good one.

AFAIK, they still want to develop him as a C. So IMO, the bolded is likely where we're headed.

 

That said, I'm fine either way they go. Kid can certainly play.

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

if he's a professional, would understand the situation and continue being a pro about it through the process

$925,000 on the big team, $70,000 in Utica, because of others mistakes.

He won't be in Utica forever (or even the entire season). Stecher was back in the NHL after like 4 games in Utica. Also don't forget he has like a 100k signing bonus with that salary and performance bonuses to make up for any losses.

 

1 hour ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

This is just a part of Benning's drafting that has added talent and depth - Over 200 losses over the last 4 years, talent and depth? Maxed out cap every year though!

Why is Benning's drafting thought to be so good? Look around the league EVERY team has more draft picks from the last six drafts playing than the Canucks, some from just the last three years. How can teams drafting so much later have so much more success?

In the entire Canuck history there have been 21 top 8 picks Benning has 4 of them, almost 20% of all top 8 picks. Of the other 17 only 3 can be said to have been outright bombs, 3 out of 17.Benning was hired as the scouting guru, the guy that was going to find more players, faster because he had all this insight and evaluating skill superior to others. Hmmmm, maybe not so much eh? Other teams ahead of the Canucks must just be getting lucky all the time or the Canucks just have bad luck.

 

Now go into names of all the players that are not being managed by the Canucks, those without contracts learning systems there than the Canucks play, those not under the watchful eye of the team.

 

Whatever, we wait to see the next incredible move, truly and with hope, it helps the team, I fear he trades a young asset to help move a vet or something. "Hey everyone is happy,  let's throw Tryamkin in with a deal to move Beagle or Schaller, or maybe another draft pick or two, they are just crap shoots anyway"

It's called a rebuild. These prospects come to prospects camp and get training programs. They are being watched in their respective leagues. Not every player has to go through Utica.

 

Funny that you're complaining about our prospect pool in a thread about a prospect that was drafted in the 5th round ready to crack the NHL roster and it being a blunder if he goes to our farm team in Utica that you want more prospects to go through. You complain about the idea of trading Tryamkin while he was a 3rd round pick being developed in the KHL currently, so you acknowledge that we have good young talent that we may or may not trade that aren't the gimmes of the top 8 picks, but our prospect pool sucks?

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, BPA said:

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

However, JV playing 3rd line minutes can pop in 10-15 goals is a good thing to have.

We need scoring from all lines, not just the top 2.

If you think 10-15 goals is good 3rd line production then maybe you should spend some time looking around the league and see what else is going on.  AG is producing so far this pre-season like a top third liner.   You have to go a long way down both CAL and TBs lineup before you get to 30 points...like right to the bottom pretty much - and that’s still ahead of JV and most of our bottom six.

 

 

I agree we need scoring from three lines, that’s one of the reasons we got so many this preseason - and we finally have the guys to set that up.  Bear - AG - Sutter makes a lot of sense to me.  But in the end I’m sure that the team will play it safe - not wanting to lose a bubble guy who’s been gifted PP time and first line minutes but yet can’t break 30 points (Goldobin/Leivo)  just to keep a little more depth for injuries. 

 

An AG breakout can’t happen if he’s in the AHL.  To me he’s definitely earned a spot - and don’t care if we lose someone to waivers - we have so much bubble depth at this point it hardly seems worth it.  Plus the teams used to playing half the year without Sutter at this point anyways - play him on the wing and let him help AG learn the little things. 

[5Fivehole0]

I feel like unless you're a specialist in an area, you need at least 20 with 10 goals to at least stick on the 4th line.