Jim Benning on Sportsnet 650

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Where are Petey, Boeser, Hughes and Horvat's replacements coming from? That is is like 8 more years. So far it is taking up to 4 years for half of Benning picks to show up, if the team is a playoff regular where are these players going to be? How many teams will trade away a lottery pick? How many Van GM's will have 6 top ten picks?

 

With Benning at the controls yes it could be another 8 to 10 years before this group has a shot at the cup, other teams are also getting younger and doing better than the Canucks.

Benning picture is building this into a mediocre team, a middle of the road that wil require the trading of Boeser, Horvat and maybe Hughes for draft picks or star prospects.

Horvat might be the Captain but  players used to winning either losing becomes okay and then something is lost or they want to win and start wanting a trade, even if they don't vocalize it the play on the ice starts becoming less intense.

 

But you have kind of hit on a timeline of Benning's plan, it is clear you think it is a 12 to 14 year plan in total. 2014 to 2026.

 

I hate the media in this town, all bought and paid for.

 

Two bad years and we were putting bags on our heads at the arena, end result, they hired Quinn and we went to a cup final within 4 years.

This team isn't even a .500 team.

I think you need to take a break from hockey if this is really how your see things.    If you can’t realize their are 31 soon to be 32 other teams about to be vying for the cup and those odds alone ... well let’s revisit Quin.  21 teams a decade of futility losing to the Oilers and Calgary on a regular basis.   I remember because I was alive then.  

 

Why don’t we compare JB to Holland, who is still considered the best GM the past 30 years (well him and Lou).  Nah What’s the point.  Obviously you think if we can’t be back to the top (which we’ve only been once in fifty years) in four years JBs a bum. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by IBatch

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I don’t get your point here.  We have a great young core.  We have really good support guys here now, who will be replaced by top prospects from our really good prospect pool.  Our winning window is open now, and will be for at least another seven to ten years.  

Look at our core.  Then look at our current support players.  The core stays, and those support guys are going to slowly age out or price out.  Now look at the prospect pool pushing to fill those support player roles.  It looks like a decade of winning that is actually sustainable in the cap era.  

 

Not sure he/she gets the point either.  Some posts make sense - others are so ridiculous that I believe my wife when she says I’m logging on to talk to 11 year olds. 

[theo5789]

1 hour ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

IMO the team has the beginning of a GREAT core, they need another younger stud dman and at least two more under 24 top six forwards of star quality.

Fans here have got so used to this losing team that getting close to .500 is being thought of as finishing the rebuild.

This team with just this core of star forwards and Hughes is still one injury away from collapse.

In 3 years Miller, Roussel, Sutter, Leivo, Pearson, Benn, Edler, Tanev, if they are still here at all, their skill levels will have diminished so much they will be as Eriksson. A big cap number taking up a roster spot and the team just might make the playoffs a couple of years so the good draft picks will be really hit an miss then, certainly no Hughes or Petterssons.

Benning is a GM with his back to the wall, the owner has bent over backwards in giving a free rein but the owner wants his Dad to see a cup before he moves along. Aquilini is not an ignorant uneducated novice to hockey and even Benning must know the consequences of failing now so he would be willing to sell the future, as he already has, to make the playoffs. IMO even if he makes the show he has to do more than a one and done. The team DOES look like they could win a few in the playoffs BUT they are a one line team and still have not much depth on defence.

 

The window is opening but with Benning it is one inch at a time. Two injuries and this team misses the playoffs by 6 to 8 points, if Horvat, Tanev, Edler Pettersson, Boeser, Miller or Myers go down this team is hooped. 23rd or worse overall is a real possibility as they cannot even maintain a .500 record with 3rd and 4th liners injured.

 

And the cap for the next few years is also a disaster. Next year there is 10+ million in extra charges with no roster players Luongo, Spooner and bonuses leaving just under 15 mil for signing over nine roster spots.

 

I think that after Benning the next guy has to trade for draft picks to get star talent, Pettersson could be the best player in the league but even McDavid isn't enough by himself, nor was Ovey or Crosby.

 

This team needs more, every where and the only place to get those it needs for a prolonged future is the draft and more to the point, the first round of the draft where 75% of those drafted are sure things

2014 - all in the top 15 make the NHL.

2015 - all in the top 15 make the NHL.

2016 - .all in the top 15 make the NHL. except OJ

2017 - all in the top 15 make the NHL. except two

2018 - so far all in the top 15 make the NHL. except three

2019 - the top three so far.

It shows that teams will covet 1rst round draft positions.

 

 

You're contradicting yourself quite a bit. So you're complaining about Benning inching along on this rebuild, yet you also complain if we do whatever it takes to make ourselves better now. You complain about our prospect pool not being able to be able to replace players now, yet also complain if we trade any of our current prospect pool to improve the team.

 

You seem to want both worlds that are impossible for anyone to accomplish. You want the next GM to trade for top end draft picks and how is that going to be accomplished? It's going to cost core pieces to draft back core pieces that are younger or in other words, known quantities for unknown ones that could set us back if they don't pan out.

 

We got Demko, Gaudette, Boeser outside of the top 15 picks currently and grooming for more to come (maybe Tryamkin as well). If the criteria is simply to make the NHL, we will likely get a lot from the good drafting Benning has done. It's a no brainer that top 15 picks are covered players and that's why they're ranked where they are, but they aren't easily acquired. Being able to draft outside of the top 15 is what's going to build depth and hopefully finding that gem could also change a franchise. Edmonton got a ton of top 10 picks and look how far that has gotten them.

 

You want another couple of young under 24 top 6 forwards? Well Podkolzin is a potential one that will come in as an ELC at age 20 already with experience playing against men. Hoglander has some potential. Lind could be groomed into one. Madden is looking very good as well. There's a few others with potential as well and all it takes is one to surge in development suddenly and things could change.

 

Another stud dman, well we don't have any surefire ones at the moment. If OJ doesn't pan out, then we have Woo and maybe Tryamkin for possibly top 4 duties. Finding stud dmen in the 2nd round is not uncommon either. Or we simply pay the price for a free agent one or utilize our assets to trade for one which is the benefit of drafting well.

 

No one thinks this team is done rebuilding. Even if we make the playoffs this year doesn't mean we are done. We traded a 1st rounder, but we got a heck of a player in return. The fact that we are even suggesting playoffs now considering the rebuild likely didn't start immediately when JB took over plus the prospect pool that we had when we did, is truly amazing that we are even bouncing back as quickly as we have when you look at teams in the past and even today that struggle for much longer.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

IMO the team has the beginning of a GREAT core, they need another younger stud dman and at least two more under 24 top six forwards of star quality.

Fans here have got so used to this losing team that getting close to .500 is being thought of as finishing the rebuild.

This team with just this core of star forwards and Hughes is still one injury away from collapse.

In 3 years Miller, Roussel, Sutter, Leivo, Pearson, Benn, Edler, Tanev, if they are still here at all, their skill levels will have diminished so much they will be as Eriksson. A big cap number taking up a roster spot and the team just might make the playoffs a couple of years so the good draft picks will be really hit an miss then, certainly no Hughes or Petterssons.

Benning is a GM with his back to the wall, the owner has bent over backwards in giving a free rein but the owner wants his Dad to see a cup before he moves along. Aquilini is not an ignorant uneducated novice to hockey and even Benning must know the consequences of failing now so he would be willing to sell the future, as he already has, to make the playoffs. IMO even if he makes the show he has to do more than a one and done. The team DOES look like they could win a few in the playoffs BUT they are a one line team and still have not much depth on defence.

 

The window is opening but with Benning it is one inch at a time. Two injuries and this team misses the playoffs by 6 to 8 points, if Horvat, Tanev, Edler Pettersson, Boeser, Miller or Myers go down this team is hooped. 23rd or worse overall is a real possibility as they cannot even maintain a .500 record with 3rd and 4th liners injured.

 

And the cap for the next few years is also a disaster. Next year there is 10+ million in extra charges with no roster players Luongo, Spooner and bonuses leaving just under 15 mil for signing over nine roster spots.

 

I think that after Benning the next guy has to trade for draft picks to get star talent, Pettersson could be the best player in the league but even McDavid isn't enough by himself, nor was Ovey or Crosby.

 

This team needs more, every where and the only place to get those it needs for a prolonged future is the draft and more to the point, the first round of the draft where 75% of those drafted are sure things

2014 - all in the top 15 make the NHL.

2015 - all in the top 15 make the NHL.

2016 - .all in the top 15 make the NHL. except OJ

2017 - all in the top 15 make the NHL. except two

2018 - so far all in the top 15 make the NHL. except three

2019 - the top three so far.

It shows that teams will covet 1rst round draft positions.

 

 

Does making the NHL have the caveat of just playing a few games?  For your information - pro scouts consider anything less then 700 games for picks 1-3 a bust, less then 400 for top ten picks a bust and under 200 games for the remainder of the first round a bust. 

 

Honka, Zboril, Senyshin, Bean, Tippet, Valardi, Suzuki, Brown, Foote, Brannstrom, Puljajarvi, McLeod, and OJ are all in the under 20 game or in Puljajarvi’s case the bust category...kind of makes your top 15 narrative look silly right?  Some of these guys will make it, and some of the guys that have played 50 plus games will not.   FYI a study was done in the past couple months that compared the past 30 years ago to the past 15...and the results showed things haven’t changed even though the scouting departments have doubled or tripled in size - and the development programs are way, way better.  The only difference (and it’s in the 1-2%) is the quality is slightly better with the early picks and that’s considered the development more then the actual picking. 

 

We can’t even consider the past five years of drafting yet.  Do you recall the Doughty or Bogosian?  Or more recently the Hirschier or Patrick?  Or how about last years Huges or Kakko? ( and ALL trade proposals to get one of these “sure things “). 

 

So far JB is batting well above average both in number of NHLers,  and the quality of those guys.   If you don’t know this then do the research.   Only 12.5% of all 3rd rounders and beyond play  in the NHL...Brisbois, AG, Tryamkin.  Demko (second)...First rounders ... his only miss so far is OJ but expect him to play some games though...By your criteria he will.   By scouts criteria less then 400 is a bust - so we won’t know for a while but JVs well on his way to not being one.  He’s batting above average on his first rounders even if OJ never plays a single game.   JV, BB, Mcaan, OJ, EP, Hughes and Podz .... we won’t know until these guys are much older yet to know how he did, but early returns are good.  

[Crabcakes]

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

ED after next season..and he’s going to have to protect Demko almost certainly.  Maybe he thinks he can sign JM and they (Seattle) will pick him up most definitely and that will take care of him having to pay two goalies but I don’t think that’s a wise decision personally - think they will likely pick Holtby for their number one.  It’s far from a foregone conclusion that they’d pick JM.  My biggest worry is we sign JM long term with the hope he gets picked.   We’d either have to add like PIT did just to make sure he picked him or be over a barrel and trying to trade Demko who definitely looks like the goalie of our future.   It would be awesome to have them both long term but that’s a lot of money tied up for two goalies - and don’t know if we have the cap for it (certainly doesn’t look that way with both EP and Hughes also up next year).  Some guys will be off the books and we will have to find cheaper options for them...likely lesser ones at that unless our prospect pool can carry us somewhat.   I know JB says he wants to sign him (JM)....not convinced it’s the right move all things considered - glad he’s paid the big bucks to figure this one out and not me ha ha. 

If they can sign Markstrom to a good contract with a reasonable term and cap hit, it's only going to make him an attractive trade piece.  He'll only be 30 so a term as much as 5 years will be fine.  I don't think that Markstrom's contract will affect Bennings decision either on who to keep unless Demko demands too much.  The plan has got to be to trade one of the goalies rather than let one go for nothing.  

[Salacious Crumb]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Does making the NHL have the caveat of just playing a few games?  For your information - pro scouts consider anything less then 700 games for picks 1-3 a bust, less then 400 for top ten picks a bust and under 200 games for the remainder of the first round a bust. 

 

Honka, Zboril, Senyshin, Bean, Tippet, Valardi, Suzuki, Brown, Foote, Brannstrom, Puljajarvi, McLeod, and OJ are all in the under 20 game or in Puljajarvi’s case the bust category...kind of makes your top 15 narrative look silly right?  Some of these guys will make it, and some of the guys that have played 50 plus games will not.   FYI a study was done in the past couple months that compared the past 30 years ago to the past 15...and the results showed things haven’t changed even though the scouting departments have doubled or tripled in size - and the development programs are way, way better.  The only difference (and it’s in the 1-2%) is the quality is slightly better with the early picks and that’s considered the development more then the actual picking. 

 

We can’t even consider the past five years of drafting yet.  Do you recall the Doughty or Bogosian?  Or more recently the Hirschier or Patrick?  Or how about last years Huges or Kakko? ( and ALL trade proposals to get one of these “sure things “). 

 

So far JB is batting well above average both in number of NHLers,  and the quality of those guys.   If you don’t know this then do the research.   Only 12.5% of all 3rd rounders and beyond play  in the NHL...Brisbois, AG, Tryamkin.  Demko (second)...First rounders ... his only miss so far is OJ but expect him to play some games though...By your criteria he will.   By scouts criteria less then 400 is a bust - so we won’t know for a while but JVs well on his way to not being one.  He’s batting above average on his first rounders even if OJ never plays a single game.   JV, BB, Mcaan, OJ, EP, Hughes and Podz .... we won’t know until these guys are much older yet to know how he did, but early returns are good.  

I’m in grade 5 and when you post walls of text without pictures it makes we want to attack all of your posts with the same argument.

[ItTakesAnArmy]

The GM is ultimately responsible for the team.

He built this team

He fired and hired coaches

He manages the cap

He signs the contracts

This is still the worst team in the league over the last 4+ NHL seasons, the most losses.

Nothing will change until fans demand more.

Just look at the excuses every year, they are the same, injuries, Gillis lack of draft picks, individual players, no cap to do deals, three draft picks playing.

250 losses out of 436 games, a win record of 0.414

 

It is Eriksson's fault he was offered that contract

It was Torts fault - fired

It was Willie's fault - fired

It was Linden and Benning didn't get along as shown by Benning being resigned by the owner.

It was the owner's fault

It was bad luck at the draft

It is currently Green's fault

It is bad reffing

It is just one game

It is a bad schedule

It is all the clause contracts fault - Benning has given out more than Gillis

It is injuries - except in Tort's super compressed season where ALL the core players were injured

It is the lack of depth - drafting was supposed to take care of that and development in Utica

Utica not working - Takes players leaving before there is a look - nobody's fault though

Two top 6 picks not living up to the average - several selected after are far superior and in one case, playing.

Capped out so bad wrong players demoted to meet the limit.

Trading away the future to get talent that should have been drafted

 

What are today's excuses? Who is to blame today? Who besides Benning can be blamed for all of this?

Nothing will change until fans demand more

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by ItTakesAnArmy

[CupIsComing]

On goaltenders:

"Markstrom has not only been a good goaltender for us but he’s a really good person and a guy that we want around. A leader in the room and someone we want to have around going forward. When the time is right we’ll have the conversations but he’s a guy that all things being equal we’d like to sign him and continue to be our number one goalie and work with Thatcher. We don’t want to rush Thatcher and goaltending is a tough position – he’s a young player but we want to have two good goalies."

 

Sounds to me like JB is setting up for a sign-and-trade (before expansion draft) with Marky.

[Jester13]

On 11/28/2019 at 12:24 PM, ItTakesAnArmy said:

The GM is ultimately responsible for the team.

He built this team

He fired and hired coaches

He manages the cap

He signs the contracts

This is still the worst team in the league over the last 4+ NHL seasons, the most losses.

Nothing will change until fans demand more.

Just look at the excuses every year, they are the same, injuries, Gillis lack of draft picks, individual players, no cap to do deals, three draft picks playing.

250 losses out of 436 games, a win record of 0.414

 

It is Eriksson's fault he was offered that contract

It was Torts fault - fired

It was Willie's fault - fired

It was Linden and Benning didn't get along as shown by Benning being resigned by the owner.

It was the owner's fault

It was bad luck at the draft

It is currently Green's fault

It is bad reffing

It is just one game

It is a bad schedule

It is all the clause contracts fault - Benning has given out more than Gillis

It is injuries - except in Tort's super compressed season where ALL the core players were injured

It is the lack of depth - drafting was supposed to take care of that and development in Utica

Utica not working - Takes players leaving before there is a look - nobody's fault though

Two top 6 picks not living up to the average - several selected after are far superior and in one case, playing.

Capped out so bad wrong players demoted to meet the limit.

Trading away the future to get talent that should have been drafted

 

What are today's excuses? Who is to blame today? Who besides Benning can be blamed for all of this?

Nothing will change until fans demand more

 

The bold part is where you go wrong right from the beginning: your premise is skewed. You simply cannot look at the standings during Benning's tenure and claim he's a bad GM. We have been a rebuilding team during his tenure and not a contender, so of course our record has been horrible. 

 

However, Benning has turned this organization around drastically in a relatively short time. We now have one of the best and deepest prospect pools in the league, Brock, Petey, Hughes, Demko, etc. on the team. Your narrative is simply wrong. 

[BlastPast]

17 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

The bold part is where you go wrong right from the beginning: your premise is skewed. You simply cannot look at the standings during Benning's tenure and claim he's a bad GM. We have been a rebuilding team during his tenure and not a contender, so of course our record has been horrible. 

 

However, Benning has turned this organization around drastically in a relatively short time. We now have one of the best and deepest prospect pools in the league, Brock, Petey, Hughes, Demko, etc. on the team. Your narrative is simply wrong. 

I have that guy on ignore but the post you quoted might be one of the dumbest I've seen on here in some time. Very impressive in its breadth of ignorance. No credit given for significant progress made. 

[spook007]

On 11/27/2019 at 10:41 PM, IBatch said:

Not sure he/she gets the point either.  Some posts make sense - others are so ridiculous that I believe my wife when she says I’m logging on to talk to 11 year olds. 

+100.... in tears

[Tre Mac]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

You simply cannot look at the standings during Benning's tenure and claim he's a bad GM. We have been a rebuilding team during his tenure and not a contender, so of course our record has been horrible. 

 

He (the user) has the right to do so and he's not off base on that one.  He does have a point with that post, JB has made an abundant of mistakes like running out of goalies last year.  We should as fans hold this team(which hasn't been good for quite some time) to a higher standard - I still haven't bought tickets in a couple of years(to be fair I can't find any friends that want to go to one lol.

 

I've seen some asinine posts and have a good 30 people on ignore but I don't see whats so off base with his post.  If this team doesn't make the playoffs I guarantee JB is canned, unfortunately that'll mean Green will likely be gone as well as the new guy will probably want his own choice as coach.  

[joe-max]

On 11/28/2019 at 9:24 PM, ItTakesAnArmy said:

 

This is still the worst team in the league over the last 4+ NHL seasons, the most losses.

Nothing will change until fans demand more.

Just look at the excuses every year, they are the same, injuries, Gillis lack of draft picks, individual players, no cap to do deals, three draft picks playing.

250 losses out of 436 games, a win record of 0.414

 

 

What are today's excuses? Who is to blame today? Who besides Benning can be blamed for all of this?

Nothing will change until fans demand more

 

The premise is so wrong and I am not surprised that Canadian teams with such impatient, rabid and demanding fanbases have a tough time developing long term-success. There is so much pressure, so much hate, so many harassing fires - as if it helped anyone to perform better.

[iceman64]

On 11/27/2019 at 7:04 AM, IBatch said:

OJs polarizing and for good reasons - only EDMs and VANs picks from that draft haven’t made the show in the top ten, and five of them are stars - two picked after us including MT.    Hard to wait forever....and he’s never been able to stay healthy going back to the CHL (was missing games even back then).   What’s he going to be like at the NHL level if he can’t handle physically the lower levels?   Like you and probably all other fans - we hope he can make it and hope he can be a top four as advertised.  

 

He should get his shot this year when he’s back.   Watched him last year and he wasn’t great but wasn’t bad either.   But he’s perfect for today’s game, a silky skater, great hands and sees the ice well.

 

The best thing going for him at this point is that he’s been able to move up each level, take some time to acclimate, and then dominate over a relatively short time (actual games played).  His injuries have gotten in the way big time.   IF he comes in and does the same thing and IF he can stay healthy for the remainder....he will be one of the best picks in franchise history as by taking his time we’ve added EP, Hughes and Podz.   No way we would have if he came in right away and dominated.   Probably somewhere in between...but I still hope...

You said..  if he can't handle the physicality of the minors, how could he handle the NHL?

Seriously? C'mon, have a look at the nature of the injuries and tell me that they were only from hits and not some plain old fashion bad injury luck and then go ok for awhile.. most players go through it in both leagues so you can't say he's not worth the wait and will probably be almost where we want him to be in 3 years after we dump LE's and Luongo's cap and have our rebuild done and ready for a serious shot at Stanley.. and seldom do you see a shot like his in a Dman so a huge upside!  

[ItTakesAnArmy]

BLAME EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING ON ANYONE BUT THE ONE GUY RUNNING THE WHOLE TEAM!

 

You two faced posters that blame players for not performing up to their contracts, over and over and over, yep your right every one of those players took advantage of poor naive Jimmy making him pay too much and they all threatened to beat him up if they didn't include a clause, poor Jimmy.

It isn't his fault that someone gets injured, that never happens usually, poor unlucky Jimmy.

Those coaches and players are just trying to get him fired that is why they loose, they are all big meanies.

Look, Look Jimmy got a C today, what progress, at this rate he will graduate in only 8 more years that is good progress for him.

It isn't fair for anyone to expect Jimmy to pass all his tests the first time, patience is needed some people just learn at a slower pace, be nice to him.

 

Hockey is hard to figure out, it is rocket science requiring several degrees in Physics, Biology and Statistics, a bit of psychology too.

 

For me I will continue to blame the guy that signs bad contracts, makes bad trades, over estimates talent, under estimates effects of age, hire the coaches, fires the coaches, the power and responsibility  to hire and fires virtually every person involved in hockey, a results sports.

IT DOES NOT TAKE 12 YEARS TO DO A REBUILD, IT DOES NOT TAKE 7 YEARS TO DO A REBUILD

TEAM SUCCESS IS NOT JUST NIGHTLY, IT IS MEASURED BY SEASON'S

 

Some of you have it made, you  can blame up to 40+ people for failure because it just can't be the only constant. Guess it will be Goldy's turn again, then followed up by Virtanen and if they trade away any of them, the future youth, it is a good thing.

Heck you can even blame me for posts just to deflect on repeating Jimmy's four scucces's

Edited November 30, 2019 by ItTakesAnArmy

[elvis15]

On 11/26/2019 at 7:50 PM, goalie13 said:

Baertschi was at the end of the stretch where he could be returned to Utica without having to clear waivers again.  It was probably planned this way all along.  Not much to discuss really.

And Goldobin had been on fire in the AHL so earned a chance to switch it up. Not much else too it. I'm sure the team talked with Baertschi, but none of that means they have to talk to us about it. Pat Quinn would have said the same.