canuckmunk Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, VforVirtanen said: Let me put it this way. It’s a little like the me too movement where people whined that people would be unfairly maligned for having done nothing, even though it never happened. Answer me this: Who has been called out for their actions or been fired for their past actions that didn’t fully deserve it? Name me one. Otherwise people are getting fired up about a hypothetical fear when people for the most part are able to discern between an unfounded claim and a smoking gun. Jian Ghomeshi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the grinder Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, VforVirtanen said: If I went into the subway station and kicked someone in the ass I am pretty confident I would be facing charges, for example. hell you can be charged for name calling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VforVasili Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, canuckmunk said: Jian Ghomeshi You seriously must be joking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said: You say this happened with me too. What were the high profile public cases that were proven to be false? I can think of one, that was instituted by a trump supporter trying to prove that “me too” was a problem and he was quickly caught. Any others? This is my point. Lots of people whined and complained that would happen but it didn’t actually happen with any of these cases. The people who were convicted were undisputed scumbags. The Aziz Ansari allegations comes to mind. The Chris Hardwick situation is another situation that sped out of control without any actual evidence. The "Jared and Kate" case from sevaral months ago https://quillette.com/2019/04/25/jared-and-kate-a-false-allegation-metoo-saga-that-police-and-prosecutors-got-right/ The Catherine Reddington/Alex Goldman case https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/false-college-rape-allegation-destroyed-my-life-suit/ Point is there are tons of cases that don't get the airplay because false rape allegations don't fit the narrative. How many celebrities in the wake of MeToo have been accused? False allegations (or at least allegations that aren't provable) happen all the time, but, be it for political reasons or what have you, nobody seems to care., with the prevalent mindset being "well, if you're innocent, you have nothing to worry about", which is akin the the mindset that police should have free reign to stop and harass whoever they see fit, and people have a problem with it, it's probably because they have "something to hide". And regardless of what the ratio of false allegations/true allegations is, it doesn't change the fact that guilty until proven innocent is simply not a fair or viable system, be it legally or within the court of public opinion. Blackstone's ratio states "Better that 10 guilty persons escape than one innocent suffer", and I tend to agree with that. Point being that these coaches should be considered "innocent until proven guilty", at least until there's enough verifying evidence to for us to conclusively "Yes, that guy is an abuser". Edited December 4, 2019 by 48MPHSlapShot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaches5 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 hours ago, ItTakesAnArmy said: Condemning people for actions done decades ago even after they corrected or grew as the times did is nothing but a witch hunt. Virtually every successful coach has almost assuredly used bad language, insulted and/or belittled players for a few reasons Maintain discipline "Push" a player to higher performance To break bad habits and others, his job for one. This holier than thou witch hunt is not going to stop I am telling ALL volunteer coaches to quit NOW before some unhappy kid makes an accusation years after that you can sued for. You may do absolutely nothing wrong but an unhappy kid may determine that you are the one that caused him years of mental problems and you can be sued. Your reputation will be ruined regardless of outcome. There is no way I condone hitting a kid, but an adult? "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" Well apparently an adult that can avoid this and doesn't can now come back and get vengeance. This is the tip of the iceberg, going after pro coaches for actions decades old, now that there is traction in social media there will be thousands of opinions from people that don't know about competitive sports but want attention or feel they are part of the herd will comment. Accusations need not be factual. Prove you didn't go through a red light 20 years ago? Or a California stop (rolling stop) 20 years ago when it wasn't as big a hazard. TG is guilty of bad language and physical contact in Portland, does it matter now? Has anyone ever done the selection process by using eeni meenie minee mo? Then you are a racist and bigot. Ever used the term a "black ace", you are a racist. Ever used the term negro, then you are a bigot. 20 years ago I was coaching and one of my assistants says "do you realize what you have done?", I was baffled, then he says "you put all the Asian kids on one line", to me i had put three players that played well together and made the team better, that was all. After that I was always afraid of being called a racist. The damn thing never even entered my consciousness, they were just players, all of them, there was just one color, the color of the jersey. I went through police checks annually I made sure there was always two adults and two others in every room. I had a swear jar, it stayed almost empty all the time I spent thousands of my own dollars coaching multiple teams each year, three was the most in two different associations. I coached for 40 years, my list of bad behavior could be unending ruining a life time of volunteering. The only thing I will have left, is one time a kid should have been on the rep team and he wasn't, I tried to encourage him but he refused, he wanted me as his coach, not understanding I perused to find out why. He said "you talk to me, not at me", As good a coach as I am, I will NEVER coach under this environment of accusation and searching to find imperfection in people. Save yourself, you can not win if you are in a position of authority, you become a target for ALL accusations regardless if true or not or if you have changed your methods or not This witch hunt isn't going after war crimes, unsolved murder mysteries, So Bill Peters did nothing wrong? Marc Crawford did nothing wrong? These aren't just accusations they are factual. Sounds more like you are concerned for something you've done in your past that and don't want to have any consequence for it. Actions have consequences and although they should have happened earlier just because some time went by with no consequence doesn't mean that no consequence should ever be administered. You get what you deserve. Be a good person and you've nothing to be concerned with. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lock Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, canuckmunk said: Jian Ghomeshi So, the person who accused him turned out to be lying later on. Some people are guilty and I don't disagree on that, but research your examples first as you probably picked the worst one that doesn't even support your case. lol Edited December 4, 2019 by The Lock 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, VforVirtanen said: If I went into the subway station and kicked someone in the ass I am pretty confident I would be facing charges, for example. What happen to the days , where you tried that you just got decked or pushed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the grinder Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: What happen to the days , where you tried that you just got decked or pushed.... because someone is going to whip out a phone and film you doing it , then it goes to the news, then the police find you , then you get fired from work and then ruin your life, that's why 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, the grinder said: because someone is going to whip out a phone and film you doing it , then it goes to the news, then the police find you , then you get fired from work and then ruin your life, that's why Ha gotta love technology. Kinda miss those days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the grinder Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Crawford kicking and abusing Patrick o'sullivan has been in o'sullivan book for 4 years already and now he is being investigated by Chicago , wonder how Chicago or the nhl is going to explain that they didn't know about previous allegations against Crawford now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItTakesAnArmy Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, The Lock said: On the flip side, coaches who do a good job ALSO get praised for the most part. Should we not praise coaches for doing a good job since it might be deemed a "superhero hunt"? Hold coaches accountable when they do things wrong and praise them when they do things right. @ItTakesAnArmy If you can't handle being held accountable, then you should have a job where you don't have to deal with other people. This goes beyond hockey. This is everywhere. I would argue that if you stood your ground on those 3 asian kids playing together and stressed the chemistry they had, you would have earned a lot more respect than if you broke that line up. You're the leader, not the people telling you what to do. A personal attack from a person that clearly never had the responsibility necessary for coaching. Accountable? You sound like one of those parents that yell and swear at the kids all the time. This does NOT go beyond hockey, this is about coaching 20 years ago when cell phones weighed only 2 lbs. THIS WITCH HUNT and I call it that because there were no witches only accusations, is about hockey. Bobby Knight a BAD coach? No, but he was a notoriously mean man. If you think this is going to stop because some multi-millionaires put up with some intense scrutiny and were humiliated in the public or in private behind closed doors. These men are not the ordinary run of the mill workers Next thing will be accusations of hate, bigotry or antisemitism because a player didn't make the AHL, NHL or local rep team. Every athlete has been given the platform to go back over their lives or careers to even up a perceived score. The line, what makes you think I broke it up, but I had to explain a bit about why it was a line and it affected every decision after, always to be thought of instead of just thinking of the game. I coached everyone at every level, to me it was just players but the super sensitive people now would find dozens of little things like the "line". And you are right coaching is a no win position now, it was tenuous before with the thoughts of sexual exploitation but now only the naive will think they can coach with absolutely no controversy in the time. Who knows in another 20 years maybe not having equal icetime per game or being on the PP or PK will be considered bullying and not up to the lofty standards that mat come to pass. Understand I am not condoning hitting players at all. But unless you have coached you are speaking from a position of ignorance, and i am not talking about sitting in for a single game. No coach can get 100% agreement 100% of the time or 100% proper behavior without using their voice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the grinder Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said: Ha gotta love technology. Kinda miss those days ya im glad that camera phones weren't around in my youth lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 I'm just more worried about coaches in the position of power to make or break a player, taking advantage of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgyfan Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I agree whole heartedly Higgy But my question is...……………….in regards to your comment...…………...do we punish or educate? Good question, Jan. I guess it depends on the severity of the offence. One would think that sexual or physical abuse would be dealt with by the law. In the less extreme cases, I prefer giving people a second chance and believe that education would help coaches in dealing with these emotionally charged situations. These skills can be learned and are far more effective in motivating people than yelling and insulting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VforVasili Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 57 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said: I agree whole heartedly Higgy But my question is...……………….in regards to your comment...…………...do we punish or educate? Boy these coaches that need so much coddling and gentle treatment sure sound like snowflakes. Maybe we could comfort them with a participation medal? I kid, I kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-23 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) The game is changing, people are changing, society is changing. You either accept that fact or can continue to complain. You guys may not like it, but it is what it is. Edited December 4, 2019 by J-23 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-SN- Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-23 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Alflives said: I like their Canadian Doughnuts. Timbits go hard these days. Doughnuts fell off, don’t enjoy them as much as I did when I was a kid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) Agreed OP This North American society is heading down the drain, towards a bunch of coddled silver spoon-fed adults that will have a mental breakdown anytime anything unfortunate happens to them. Edit: Indeed, there is nothing positive that can come out from being a coach. Having a 1,000 kids grow up to be great athletes and exemplary adults will all be cancelled by 1 person coming out and saying years later that you mistreated them. Nobody will ever look at the 1000 kids that you had a positive influence on. Even if you're found not guilty of mistreating that 1 person, that will never be mentioned after you're accused. So unfortunately you just have to look out for yourself and say F you to the neighbours, friends, family and anything else that requires you to be in a position of any kind of influence and power. Edited December 4, 2019 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 My coach made me feel bad. I want to find him and get his pension taken away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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