Bill Peters/Mike Babcock/Marc Crawford/ETC

[Monty]

Thought having a “catch all” thread might be a good idea, after I read the following story in The Athletic 2 days ago. After not seeing it in either the Bill Peters or Marc Crawford thread, thought it would be better to post is in a new thread, where it could start anew.

 

This is a VERY long read. But this is Robin Lehner’s take on what’s happening with coaches right now. This was an interview he gave to The Athletic, that was published 2 days ago. Shocked this isn’t getting any coverage. I waited two days to post this, as I thought for sure it would gain traction. A very interesting take that nobody else is talking about publicly, as they don’t want to get called out and labeled as “insensitive” or “not supportive”, which is NOT what Lehner is proposing, either.

 

Quote

Robin Lehner: The hockey culture is changing. But we still don’t have close enough tools to be able to self-assess and self-evaluate and learn. That’s what I see with this whole coaches thing that I think is ridiculous at this moment. In my opinion, it only comes down to mental health education. That’s the whole answer, that’s the whole issue, but no one looks at it that way. But in my opinion, all it is is mental health education.

You mean the coaches? That if you’re treating people that way is (a sign of a mental health issue)?

No, it’s not, it’s not — I can say pretty open and honestly that I believe that 95 percent of every type of that type of scenario of the coaches discussion that’s in the moment right now, 95 percent of these coaches, they’re not evil people. Maybe 5 percent are an evil person. These people are not evil people. They’re not bad people. They don’t want to screw people over. But we’re judging people’s actions many, many years ago through today’s society’s glasses, which is highly immoral. So what I mean with that, 10 years ago when I came into the league, 15-20 years ago, those things were the norm. It was the norm. Because these types of people thought that that was the best way of bringing performance. I think in general, hockey and sports systems in general stems from the military quite a bit, on how to get ready your troops to go into battle and what they thought at the time was the best way to prepare someone to become stronger or be able to take pressure. That was the education level back then. That’s what they thought worked. Does that make them a bad person?

It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how people work.

I know, but again, they’re doing what they thought was best to bring out the best performance. And if that was morally good or not, that can’t be discussed today. Because back then, it was. It was not just accepted, it was the norm. Back then, it was the way. In different levels, some were worse, some were not. So if we’re going to sit now and judge people on how things were back then that was totally normal and call them bad people and call them bad human beings and call them out, then people should start asking themselves what type of person they are. Because at the end of the day, it comes back to what I’m saying about mental health education. These coaches, or people in general, will know what type of effects that type of system has on a mental health level. And that it probably has a long line of people that couldn’t handle it, that didn’t make it, that couldn’t stay in the league. But the line of consequences are being highly insecure leads to anxiety and depression and drug abuse and suicide and all these things. If that would be pinpointed and taught back in the day, do you think that these coaches would have continued? They wouldn’t.

But that’s just it. We’re learning more every day.

But now we’re judging the person. We are judging the people and we’re letting the cancel culture, social-media pressure to destroy people lives. When I see people online, and I’ve had personal talks with (Daniel) Carcillo. I agree with Carcillo about a lot of things and I disagree highly with a lot of things, as well. But when I see, well, these coaches need to get rehabilitated and get treatment and say they’re sorry publicly, like, who are we to say that they’re going to have to say they’re sorry? For what? For doing what they thought was right at the moment in that certain point in time? Are they gonna say they’re sorry for that? Yes, they’ve treated people bad. They’ve treated me bad. They’ve treated a lot of us bad. But that was the norm. That was the way. So what do they have to say they’re sorry about? Doing their job?

But there’s a line, even back then, that shouldn’t have been crossed that got crossed.

I mean, yes, I agree with that. There are racist lines, 100 percent agree. And there’s a fine line with the physical abuse. But don’t tell me verbal abuse had a line. Because that’s not (how) it is. Then you go up to an army general and tell him that as well. Because I believe that the whole culture comes from that, how to ready your troops. And they thought at the moment they helped people. I truly believe they thought at that moment, a lot of them — I’m not saying all of them, but a lot of them — tried to help people. But again, we’re judging people for verbal abuse. Look around all the sports leagues. How many domestic violence cases are still playing in every league? How many criminals? How many drug dealers are still playing the game, and they’re being idolized. And how many rappers, singers —

One wrong doesn’t make another wrong right, though.

No, it doesn’t. But what I’m saying is it’s a double standard. And why do these people deserve to get their lives canceled because of public pressure without a fair hearing, without being able to tell their side of the story, you understand what I mean? I’m not condoning the behavior. I’m saying they weren’t educated at the time, and at the time it was the cultural norm on how to do things. Go back 20 years and see how people raised their kids. Is that accepted how people raised their kids 20-30 years ago in today’s lenses? We can have a discussion about that, it’s the same thing. Now it piles on on these coaches. They’re just the next ones to take the next blame in the societal shift. It’s not condoning the behavior, but the behavior — listen, it was accepted back then, end of story. And they are not evil people. They did not do it to destroy people’s lives. They didn’t understand that they did do that, because that’s what they were taught. They were shaped by their own experiences. They were treated the same way. And that’s where they learned it from. If you were racist in society — what do you do, you lock them up for life? And you think that his family’s not going to be racist, you think he’s not going to be racist? Or do you rehabilitate him or educate him? How about instead of firing all the people, the NHL and everyone puts in training programs about mental health to show all the coaches what type of consequences that type of behavior can have on mental health. I guarantee you it will stop.

I’d love to see that.

But instead, let the public fire everyone because it’s the public, it’s the cancel culture that’s firing everyone. It is. It’s the pressure from the public when they get one side of the story out and we push the angle that they’re such bad people with the limited information there is. And we don’t talk about the hundreds of people that will say that they love Crawford. I love him. He’s been nothing but great to me. And what he’s done in the past, I can understand — I don’t know all the facts, but what I’m saying is, I also understand in society back then it was acceptable. It was accepted. He’s not an evil person. He did things he thought was going to (make things) better for certain people. And every coach is going to have a few guys that hate them. I hated a bunch of coaches, as well. But do I think they intentionally tried to destroy to me? There are some people like that, absolutely, in the league. Same with players. There’s a lot of bad players, as well. There’s a lot of bad journalists, there’s a lot of bad people in all areas. But the process of the cancel culture that’s going on right now, instead of looking how to make change — because I want change as much as you do. Put in education on what the consequences are (for) this type of behavior and it would stop, and it would have stopped if that was in place 20 years ago and 10 years ago and five years ago, as well. But back then, it was acceptable. And that was the norm. And they did what they thought was best. And now they’re getting punished, and they’re going to destroy their lives and their families and their reputations by a small amount of people coming out and saying some pretty bad stuff, I’m not condoning it, but I understand. Again, physical abuse, not OK. But honestly, to a certain point, and that’s not trying to sound crazy, because I’m not saying you can choke a guy or kick a guy in a certain place, but like, back in the day, it was OK to tell someone to wake up, you know?

We want to create narratives all the time. It’s the same when I yelled at the bench coming off the ice (in Colorado). We want to make a narrative about me yelling at the bench when that happens every shift on every bench. And there’s goalies in the league, every goal they let in, they scream at their defenseman. And I’m a goalie that goes up and taps the boards every play and tries to be positive. We let up five goals in a little bit more than a period, and I tell my bench to wake up and it becomes a thing. You understand what I mean? It’s all about narratives and what we pick and choose. This time it’s the coaches. In half a year, that’s gone and it’s the next unfortunate people. Instead of just, honestly, just talk about it in a good way and talk about what the solutions are. Pressure us as players and the league to work together to put in mental health education and make everyone understand what it leads to if you get verbally abused. And I’ve been verbally abused. No one talks about this when I said in The Athletic article, when I came out of rehab, I had to spend a day with a very, very verbally down-putting bad human being for a whole day when I was talking to one of the teams. Because it’s just how it is, man. And until we change the norms —

But that’s obviously what’s happening here.

But why do we have to change the norms at the cost of people’s lives?

We don’t. There has to be some allowance to allow people to grow, and develop and evolve.

But we’re not. We’re throwing out a bunch of one-sided stuff online and let the public read it and say how disgusting these people are until the higher echelon of every corporation gets pressured enough that they’re too much of a liability and they lose their job. That’s exactly what’s happening. Where’s all the articles about the hundreds of people that love these guys? I haven’t seen one. I saw one in Ottawa, no one retweeted that. No one in Chicago retweeted the Ottawa article with six players saying good things about Crawford. Where’s that retweet? The narrative is how it is.

A lot of guys don’t want to talk about it because they know that things are — 

No because we only want to talk about the bad stuff about these guys because they’re the ones in line now. It’s hypocrisy. It’s hypocrisy and it bothers me. Why it bothers me and I choose to talk about it even though they don’t want me to talk about it is because I got a second chance. I was lucky enough to get a second chance. If this is the narrative we go by, I should quit today. And another 10 guys on this team. Because none of us are perfect. If these are the norms, you probably should quit, too. You’re not perfect, probably.

Probably not.

No, but we like to just choose certain people, and now we’re going to attack them and you’re gone. Certain things are not OK. But say that it even was with the fullest of bad intent back in the day from one of these coaches. That doesn’t mean that he hasn’t been able to change over the last 10 years.

That’s exactly right. That’s the gray area that’s not allowed to — 

But what’s his way out? What’s his second chance? I don’t like Bill Peters. After what he did to Eddie Lack. I like Eddie Lack and I saw what he did to him in Carolina, I don’t like him. But he apologized, didn’t he? So what’s the way out?

I don’t know.

There is none. Because when you get in the cancel culture, you’re done. Done. And the media have a huge part to play in this because we show only one side of the issue. Not all sides. And there is no second chances. This is the land of second chances — supposed to be. I got a second chance. I was incredibly lucky to get a second chance. But if we change the culture and the real stigma around mental health and all the stuff and understand that mental health is what leads to addiction, and maybe the pressure around a lot of these things, and all those things combined that we’re talking about are leading to those things. People will open their eyes for once. And maybe if GMs, owners, even players can open their eyes and stop judging people about what problems they have when they have the exact same problems, get judged about being an alcoholic or an addict when I know that a lot of owners and GMs and other players are also the same things. But they make decisions about me, you know? It’s so backwards and unfortunately the coaches are just next in line to get the axe. And it bothers me because I got a second chance. I believe everyone deserves a second chance. And now everyone’s just put a microscope on them, and only on the negative, nothing on the positive. Build as bad a case as possible until they’re fired, and then we go to the next issue. It’s highly inappropriate, man. And we need to be able to disagree with one another. I can be your best friend even though you believe totally different than me. That’s OK. But I like you guys. I follow what you guys are saying. I think you tweeted, kind of made the rounds, if you believe these things yesterday, get the fuck out of here, right? Is that what you said?

Mark Lazerus

 

✔@MarkLazerus

 · Dec 3, 2019

 

If one more person laments to me the "wussification" of sports, of boys, of men, of America, I'm going to scream.

Being an asshole is not manly. Inflicting pain is not inspirational.

You know what takes strength? Empathy. Kindness. Humanity.

GTFO with your backward bullshit.

Mark Lazerus

 

✔@MarkLazerus

 

Sports will still exist when all this shit has been rooted out. And it'll be better. Playing hard for a coach you love is a lot easier and a lot more effective than playing hard for a coach you fear.

 

1,236

9:40 PM - Dec 3, 2019

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Mark Lazerus

 

✔@MarkLazerus

 

 

FWIW, I also believe in a coach's capacity to evolve, to adapt, to look within him/herself and change for the better. We should be glad when they do, while staying vigilant and not forgetting what they've done. Though, yes, some things are unforgivable and require zero tolerance.

 

103

9:49 PM - Dec 3, 2019

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I said basically that if you think that coaching through fear is the only way to coach successfully, then yeah.

But again, I think that’s an uneducated opinion. Because that’s what the military does.

I don’t want to see that in civilian life.

I know, I know. But that’s what at the time they thought was the right thing.

I understand that, and I had a third tweet where I said you have to allow people to grow and develop and change. That’s the problem we have. We don’t know how to handle 10-year-old accusations because a guy might have changed (since) then. But what do you do about something that wasn’t punished the first time?

We’re shaped by the culture and the society we live in. So they were shaped by back then. And the progress happens and they get re-shaped, otherwise they get canceled out of the league anyways because the younger players aren’t going to respond to them. And you see that with a lot of older-type coaches, they’re getting fired, aren’t they? Because of production, not about a lot of other things. If you don’t change, you fall out anyways. Society shapes you as you go on. What I’m saying is it’s not black and white. And I don’t condone any of this stuff. I’m just saying back then it was OK and that was the norm and they thought they did the right thing. Some of them went too much. But even if they went too much, why can they not get a second chance to change? Because usually when you give a person who’s done wrong in his life a second chance to change, usually he turns it around, learns from experience —

We’re in agreement there. We’re in agreement.

That’s why I talk to you about it. Because I think you have a strong voice about it. But again, you see what I’m saying, though?

That’s what we as a culture are trying to figure out, what do you do with old —

The media is the ones. The media is the ones. You guys have to understand, you are the ones. As players, even as celebrities, we’re not the ones. People really don’t listen to us. They listen to you guys. And what you guys decide to do — that’s why I love The Athletic.Because I believe The Athletic looks deeper into things, shows both sides of the story. That’s what needs to happen, both sides of the story. You need to be able to look at all sides of the facts before making an opinion these days. Unfortunately, that’s not what happens in society. You listen to one outlet and that’s how it is, or the other outlet and that’s what it is. Isn’t that the biggest problem in the U.S. right now?

Absolutely. Of course. It’s the Fox News vs. MSNBC audience.

Exactly, but you know when it’s going to change? When a new outlet comes that shows all sides.

If people watch it. You have to get people to actually watch that.

But there’s no option really out there like that yet. That’s what I think about The Athletic, honestly. That’s why I talk to you about it. And I don’t want to go on a rant, this is a sensitive subject, but I feel very strongly about it because I got a second chance, I believe people need second chances.

Well, that’s the thing. You have a perspective that’s more valuable than others because, like you said, you have gotten that second chance.

Yeah, for sure, I believe everyone deserves a second chance. Even if they’ve been bad people. I’ve been a bad person. Carcillo, who leads this charge right now, he’s been a bad person. And now he gets to cancel people out, because he’s done his career and he’s finally doing good? I really commend him for ending the cycle of abuse, what he’s done now. It doesn’t mean that he and that whole movement and cancel culture in general gets to destroy these people’s lives without a fair process and opportunity to change. Why do you have to lose your whole life, why do you have to lose everything, to be able to come back? Because you can’t come back after that. Don’t tell me that Peters is going to be back in the league.

Oh, he’s certainly not.

And I’m not protecting him.

I feel he shouldn’t come back. There’s enough shit there that he’s admitted to.

I think that he should have a possibility to come back as long as he understands what he’s done. And he has apologized. When you give a person that you think, like Peters, a second chance, he’s the biggest one that can change things. Because he has gotten the axe, he can get his experiences and he can actually change things because he was a bad one maybe that could turn something good. As I said, you don’t just change a racist by just —

But it’s a huge risk. You have to understand as a franchise it’s a huge risk. You’re going to get backlash from fans, you’re going to get backlash from media. No team is going to take the PR risk. As much as anything, no team’s going to take the PR risk.

Now you’re saying the same thing that I dealt with.

That’s why you’re on a 1-year contract.

That’s why I can’t negotiate my contract on the statistics like everyone else in this league. I haven’t been a good person in my past. Have I turned into a pretty good person?

I think so.

Am I showing every day that I’m a good person? And I take responsibility and try to make change, but is it fair that I’m not maybe going to be able to live my life in the same level as everyone else in this league is? Again, it’s because of perception. Risk and reward. There are ways to change those things. It doesn’t need to be black and white. With the right education, with the right things in place, you can figure it out. Again, it’s all lies. Because all these people that make these decisions, that fires these people, that decides about contracts or in the general world that hires people in corporations? How do you think they got there? You think they’re good people? They’re not.

Certainly not in corporations, no (laughs).

But we pretend they are. We pretend they are. It’s as much as we pretend that no one has issues and no one has mental health problems. We all deal with something. But we pretend that we’re so much better than everyone else. The cancel culture is killing me because the hypocrisy is out of this world. It really is. And I feel bad that the coaches are the ones next in line to get destroyed with no fair hearing, no fair structure. And we as a league and players haven’t given them an opportunity to change. We haven’t talked to them, we haven’t educated them, we haven’t educated ourselves. No one in this league has mental health education. Which is the biggest, most important thing.

Well, that’s why your voice is important.

Yeah, but, the right people have to listen.

 

[Bure_Pavel]

Most of the coaches I can think of that have won Stanley cups are hot heads, it seems to work. 

[NUCKER67]

Nice coaches and nice teams don't win, but as long as everyone's having fun

 

[250Integra]

Let's sit a hall of fame player for 14 games so he doesn't get to game 1500. That'll motivate him!

[Dazzle]

I really do agree with Robin Lehner's take.

 

It's the same with history. There's good things that Hitler did (believe it or not). Yet because we focus all the negative, we fail to see the OVERALL contribution a person has done. There's also the issue with motives. It doesn't mean Hitler was right to kill all the 'crippled'/mentally disabled & Jews, as well as the Poles and other minorities.

 

We can agree/disagree on the motives. We can also interpret things differently too based on the same pieces of evidence.

If we go back far enough, we can dig up enough dirt on almost everybody, just because it came to light. Does it mean that the past should be ignored? No. But at the same time, judging people based on the past which DOES NOT NECESSARILY reflect their present is fallacious.

 

We've heard of previously racist people that have renounced their past. People DO change. But if we are to go back to what they did or said in the past, we fail to see who they have become.

[jackofwind]

12 minutes ago, Bure_Pavel said:

Most of the coaches I can think of that have won Stanley cups are hot heads, it seems to work. 

Most of the hothead coaches that I can think of that have won Stanley Cups haven't been the deciding factor in their runs (ex: Babcock with his all-star Detroit team).

 

Coaches who lift their players up inspire them to play hard out of love are the ones who get their team to make unexpected Cup runs. Those are the coaches that actually make a difference rather than just being carried by a cast of all-star players.

[jackofwind]

3 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

We've heard of previously racist people that have renounced their past. People DO change. But if we are to go back to what they did or said in the past, we fail to see who they have become.

Sure, but those people also need to acknowledge their mistakes and take responsibility for them. Peters, for example, did not. Taking responsibility also means understanding that if an organization wants to sever ties with you because of your past actions (if they didn't know about them when they hired you) that's their prerogative and completely fair.

[Dazzle]

Just now, jackofwind said:

Sure, but those people also need to acknowledge their mistakes and take responsibility for them. Peters, for example, did not. Taking responsibility also means understanding that if an organization wants to sever ties with you because of your past actions (if they didn't know about them when they hired you) that's their prerogative and completely fair.

You're absolutely right. From the investigation, it didn't seem like Peters was truly "sorry" until he was caught.

 

My statement above is referring to people who have "screwed up" but have tried to make amends for their past behaviour. Let's face it. Everyone has &^@#ed up.
 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Dazzle

[Bure_Pavel]

1 minute ago, jackofwind said:

Most of the hothead coaches that I can think of that have won Stanley Cups haven't been the deciding factor in their runs (ex: Babcock with his all-star Detroit team).

 

Coaches who lift their players up inspire them to play hard out of love are the ones who get their team to make unexpected Cup runs. Those are the coaches that actually make a difference rather than just being carried by a cast of all-star players.

Not every player is motivated by love, a good coach can identify the best way to motivate different players. Like I said a lot of the best coaches in history were hotheads, not just in Hockey. Motivating players to give that extra 10%, who are making millions of dollars and in a league were every player is already giving close to 100% every night is tough. 

[xereau]

The hyperbolic bloodlust of the public is what concerns me.

Why can these guys simply not apologise and move on?

 

Forgiveness is a virtue many on the far left have forgotten exists.

[jackofwind]

2 minutes ago, xereau said:

Why can these guys simply not apologise and move on?

That's a good question - why can't they?

 

Because they're not apologizing in any meaningful way.

[xereau]

14 minutes ago, jackofwind said:

That's a good question - why can't they?

 

Because they're not apologizing in any meaningful way.

Nebulous.

[Rick Blight]

31 minutes ago, jackofwind said:

That's a good question - why can't they?

 

Because they're not apologizing in any meaningful way.

I suspect they are getting legal advice not to talk about these past issues until the legal implications get sorted out.

[-AJ-]

42 minutes ago, jackofwind said:

That's a good question - why can't they?

 

Because they're not apologizing in any meaningful way.

What could they do to convince you it was meaningful? It seems to me that no matter what they did, critics would claim ulterior motives, which of course do exists to some degree in all these situations, but it seems to me there's almost no credence given to the possibility of a meaningful, honest apology.

[xereau]

7 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

What could they do to convince you it was meaningful? It seems to me that no matter what they did, critics would claim ulterior motives, which of course do exists to some degree in all these situations, but it seems to me there's almost no credence given to the possibility of a meaningful, honest apology.

The important part of my post above was ignored heh.

 

Hyperbolic bloodlust is the real problem. Rabid virtue signallers. Its gross, and dangerous.

[NUCKER67]

A crow, a cock and a dodo bird walk into a bar...

[Shift-4]

7 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

A crow, a cock and a dodo bird walk into a bar...

Did they all hit their heads at the same time?

[Down by the River]

2 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Nice coaches and nice teams don't win, but as long as everyone's having fun

 

But is anyone even asking for "nice" coaches? It seems like a false equivalency to say that not wanting Mike Babcock to manipulate players with no evidence that what he was doing had any improvement in on-ice performance with wanting some camp counselor to coach a hockey team. 

 

Guys want coaches that are hard on them if they also feel that that coach respects them and is doing everything to make them a better player. 

[RUPERTKBD]

I'm not, nor have I ever been a fan of Chris Chelios, but this story (if true) makes me like him just a little bit:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/chris-chelios-pounded-beers-on-bench-after-mike-babcock-benched-him-at-winter-classic/ar-BBXS831?li=AAggNb9

Quote

 

Lace up the skates and crack open a few beers. 

It's a rite of passage when a player gets benched in front of his hometown friends and family during an outdoor NHL game. 

Wait, what?

That's exactly what ex-Detroit Red Wings star Chris Chelios says happened during the 2009 Winter Classic, after being benched by ever-scrutinized coach Mike Babcock at Wrigley Field in Chelios' hometown of Chicago. 

"He tried to healthy scratch me in the outdoor game in Wrigley Field against Chicago because he knew it was my hometown," Chelios, who played 26 seasons in the NHL, including 10 in Detroit, said on Barstool Sports' Spittin' Chiclets podcast. "Just things that were so unnecessary."

The Free Press was not immediately able to verify Chelios' claim. There's no apparent video of the incident and an email to the Red Wings was not immediately returned. 

Chelios, who last played in 2009-10, said he played the first shift before being benched. 

And then he said he started pounding beers.

"Again, and you know it’s funny," Chelios continued. "I’m sitting there. Second period and my two sons were about 40 feet, you know, sitting on the boards and they’re looking at me going, 'What’s going on?'

"And I look at them. I tip my glass like you know my cup, to get me a beer. So my two boys were handing me beers the whole game. And then (Brad) McCrimmon tried to get me to go out there with a minute left to kill a penalty. I said, 'Not a chance.' "

 

I've heard stories about Guy Lafleur smoking a cigarette in the penalty box, but Chelly drinking beer on the bench takes the prize.

 

One problem with the story though: Where wer his kids getting the beer from? Was Mom in on it?

[jackofwind]

52 minutes ago, -AJ- said:

What could they do to convince you it was meaningful? It seems to me that no matter what they did, critics would claim ulterior motives, which of course do exists to some degree in all these situations, but it seems to me there's almost no credence given to the possibility of a meaningful, honest apology.

Showing an understanding of the severity of their actions and apologizing publicly and directly to the person(s) without the addition of legalese, excuses that detract or deflect blame, or hiding behind a corporate curtain.

 

I'm all for giving people another chance when they demonstrate that they understand the errors they've made and own up to them fully, without trying to worm out of them at all, and show that they've changed the way that they conduct themselves. None of the coaches so far have done those things.