[Waivers] Madison Bowey

[Provost]

17 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

This is probably the mentality that everyone has.

 

"Oh, he's on waivers. Claim!"

 

There's no context except the name. As people have already pointed out, he didn't play for Washington much because of their stacked defence. Washington didn't even have to rush him because of it. Now he had been given a FULL opportunity in Detroit, and he's not ready for the NHL. Not saying he's a bust but he seems like he's a Pouliot.

There is plenty of context, I literally put a bunch of it in my post.

He has all the tools to be an NHL defenceman, and is of the same age range as our depth guys like Rafferty, Teves, Sautner, and Chatfield.

The context of his NHL history is being on a really good team with no room for him to play much but was fine in the minutes he played, and then being on historically terrible team where a lot is being asked from him.  On our team and on a lot of teams he would be in neither of those situations.

The context from our side, I clearly stated.  Zero downside risk... like absolutely zero.  He gets carried as a depth guy to take a look at, and if we have an injury that necessitates him going in... the alternative to him would have been Chatfield who has a lot LESS of a resume.  If he ends up being no good, he goes away with no lasting implications.

The upside, a character guy that was a captain in junior, and could end up being a bigger, physical version of Stecher.
 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Provost

[Dazzle]

16 minutes ago, Provost said:

There is plenty of context, I literally put a bunch of it in my post.

He has all the tools to be an NHL defenceman, and is of the same age range as our depth guys like Rafferty, Teves, Sautner, and Chatfield.

The context of his NHL history is being on a really good team with no room for him to play much but was fine in the minutes he played, and then being on historically terrible team where a lot is being asked from him.  On our team and on a lot of teams he would be in neither of those situations.

The context from our side, I clearly stated.  Zero downside risk... like absolutely zero.  He gets carried as a depth guy to take a look at, and if we have an injury that necessitates him going in... the alternative to him would have been Chatfield who has a lot LESS of a resume.  If he ends up being no good, he goes away with no lasting implications.

I'm just saying that for a guy with such a low cap hit. Why did they "give him up"?

 

It's not like they don't have anyone to play defence. In the clip I showed you, he's basically made some Pouliot-like passes and was involved in three of the goals in the first game. Bowey's proven little in the NHL. He's not a noted goal scorer - and even on a stacked Washington team, his stats aren't very good.

No need to get a boner over this guy. To put it into perspective, Hughes has outproduced Bowey in any one of Bowey's years in the NHL. Let that sink in for a moment. They're both defenceman. One is a rookie. The other has like over 100 NHL games of experience.

 

I see you're posting up the physicality aspect of him. I'm sure he has some good aspects. But the last thing we need are defenceman who give up pucks.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Dazzle

[Provost]

10 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I'm just saying that for a guy with such a low cap hit. Why did they "give him up"?

 

It's not like they don't have anyone to play defence. In the clip I showed you, he's basically made some Pouliot-like passes and was involved in three of the goals in the first game. Bowey's proven little in the NHL. He's not a noted goal scorer - and even on a stacked Washington team, his stats aren't very good.

No need to get a boner over this guy. To put it in to perspective, Hughes has outproduced Bowey in any one of Bowey's years in the NHl. Let that sink in for a moment.

I could put up a video montage of mistakes any D made (including Hughes) as well, it is no sort of indication of the player.  Especially since that video was made by a Washington fan right after he was traded out of Washington and in his first days on his new team.

 

Making a comparison like you did to Hughes is honestly idiotic.  No one has suggested that they expect Bowie to be a #1 NHL defenceman.... and guess what, the cost to get Bowie is not a top ten draft pick either!  Let that sink in for a moment.

 

No one is getting “a boner over this guy”, the question is whether there is more benefit than risk.

 

Your post is simply making false straw men arguments that have nothing to do with the conversation anyone is having.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Provost

[the grinder]

so basically alex biega beat him out of his job  , quick claim  bowey now   

[Dazzle]

6 minutes ago, Provost said:

I could put up a video montage of mistakes any D made (including Hughes) as well, it is no sort of indication of the player.

 

Making a comparison like you did to Hughes is honestly idiotic.  No one has suggested that they expect Bowie to be a #1 NHL defenceman.... and guess what, the cost to get Bowie is not a top ten draft pick either!  Let that sink in for a moment.

 

No one is getting “a boner over this guy”, the question is whether there is more benefit than risk.

 

Your post is simply making false straw men arguments that have nothing to do with the conversation anyone is having.

 

 

Actually, we absolutely can. After making it to the NHL, draft position doesn't mean anything anymore. Hence, I didn't point out their draft spots. Using YOUR logic, Gudbranson should be outperforming Bowey, am I correct? Fact is, both defenceman are "fringe".

 

 

This is from Hockey Writer's website from 2013.

 

ETA:

2-3 years

Risk-Reward Analysis:

Risk 1/5, Reward 4/5

NHL Potential:

Top four defenseman.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There were question marks about Hughes size. Yes, Hughes could have potential as a top four but it wasn't going to be soon (or so they thought). There weren't questions like that for Bowey. As noted by the draft projections, most people thought he was a low risk, high reward type player. That was in 2013. Eriksson was amazing during this time. Let that sink in for a moment.

 

So, it's not "idiotic" because it's a different, opposing opinion than yours. I'm just saying that he's not worth adding in because he seems like he's a giveaway machine, which is not what we want.

 

Here is the link where I drew up the above stats. There's a more detailed breakdown on the link.

 

 

 

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/madison-bowey-the-next-ones-2013-nhl-draft-prospect-profile/

 

Madison Bowey THW Close-Up

Date of Birth: April 22, 1995
Place of Birth: Winnipeg, MB
Ht: 6’1” Wt: 195 lbs
Shoots: Right
Position: Defenseman
NHL Draft Eligibility: 2013

Madison Bowey #4 (Marissa Baecker/WHL)

There are trends in every draft class. While the 2013 class will be likely best remembered for the breadth of talented forwards coming out of the QMJHL, there are also a lot of talented blueliners emerging from the Western Hockey League. Madison Bowey of the Kelowna Rockets may not be as flashy as Seth Jones or as highly touted, but he’s been extremely important to his team’s success in 2012-13.

At first blush, Bowey resembles NHL veteran Jay Bouwmeester. He’s a smooth skater, a good passer and generally a very smart positional player. While he may not have the complete package that Bouwmeester has developed into quite yet, he’s got a lot of strong tools. One part of his game that Bowey has that Bouwmeester doesn’t is an under-rated physical game. Bowey’s not afraid to mix it up in the corners or play the body, and he’s even fought a handful of times this season. That added element keeps opponents on their toes when Bowey’s on the ice.

Bowey’s stock may be elevated a bit by playing on a strong Kelowna Rockets club. The Rockets were near the top of the WHL in both team offense and team defense, which may inflate everyone’s numbers a bit. Bowey’s also benefited a bit from playing behind New Jersey Devils prospect Damon Severson, but he’s likely been Kelowna’s number-two blueliner throughout much of the season.

The part of Bowey that likely makes scouts the most optimistic is his general approach to the game. To be blunt, Madison Bowey won’t need to change too much to be an NHL defenseman. He plays a smart two-way game, is physical but doesn’t rely on out-muscling smaller guys, and is a smooth skater that relies on smart positioning. He may need to add a few pounds to his frame to be competitive when battling with the giants in the NHL, but Bowey won’t need to reinvent himself to make the transition.

Scout’s Honour:

“I like his size. I like how hard he works.  I think everyone can become a better skater. When he keeps his game within himself and doesn’t do too much….the best way to impress the coach is to be real simple, real good and make smart sharp plays.”” – Stu MacGregor (Edmonton Oilers head scout; via Regan’s Rant)

Statistics:

Bio/Interview(s)/Link(s):

• The Hockey News
• Dobber Prospects
• Hockey Prospect

International Tournaments:

Bowey has spent a lot of time representing his country and province. He represented Manitoba at the 2011 Canada Winter Games, played on Team West at the 2012 Under-17 Hockey Challenge and won a gold medal with Team Canada at the 2012 Ivan Hlinka Memorial tournament.

ETA:

2-3 years

Risk-Reward Analysis:

Risk 1/5, Reward 4/5

NHL Potential:

Top four defenseman.

Strengths:

• Good passer
• Strong skater
• Not a huge guy, but not afraid to play physical
• Good positional player in all three zones

Flaws/Aspects He Needs To Work On:

• Working to improve his offensive consistency
• Adding some muscle so he can win puck battles

Fantasy Hockey Potential:

Offensive 8/10, Defensive 8/10

NHL Player(s) Comparison:

His ceiling is probably at the level of an Alex Pietrangelo, although he’s more likely to settle into a Cody Franson role. He’s almost a smaller Jay Bouwmeester, albeit with more of a physical edge.

When He’ll Go In June:

Bowey is a first round pick in this year’s draft. Most likely he’ll go in the middle of the first round.

Video(s):

Edited December 9, 2019 by Dazzle

[Dazzle]

More context for @Provost

 

Nomad556

 

 

WSH - NHL

40 points · 28 days ago

 

He was a good guy when he played with WSH. Hope he’s doing ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

level 2

coltron57

 

 

DET - NHL

63 points · 28 days ago

 

He’s not. He’s been absolutely awful the whole year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

level 3

ShanghaiKelly

 

 

DET - NHL

2 points · 28 days ago

 

He's slightly better than Green this year imo but yes still awful. Perhaps we should stop taking WSH dmen

 

 

I think that says a lot lol after fans are bashing him on a page about him scoring a goal.

 

But maybe my arguments are "idiotic" if they don't fit what you're thinking @Provost

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Dazzle

[theo5789]

36 minutes ago, Provost said:

There is plenty of context, I literally put a bunch of it in my post.

He has all the tools to be an NHL defenceman, and is of the same age range as our depth guys like Rafferty, Teves, Sautner, and Chatfield.

The context of his NHL history is being on a really good team with no room for him to play much but was fine in the minutes he played, and then being on historically terrible team where a lot is being asked from him.  On our team and on a lot of teams he would be in neither of those situations.

The context from our side, I clearly stated.  Zero downside risk... like absolutely zero.  He gets carried as a depth guy to take a look at, and if we have an injury that necessitates him going in... the alternative to him would have been Chatfield who has a lot LESS of a resume.  If he ends up being no good, he goes away with no lasting implications.

The upside, a character guy that was a captain in junior, and could end up being a bigger, physical version of Stecher.

But why not give him a chance to build on his resume and see what we've got? If Chatfield is a dud, he's a replaceable piece just like Bowey would be. Players like Bowey are in reality a dime a dozen (obviously felt different when he was drafted, but speaking of today). Chatfield is only one example and he's simply the current call up to let Rafferty steep a little longer in Utica. If there was a real viable option to place someone longer term, Rafferty is next on the depth chart (for right side dmen). And that is after getting past Fantenberg as well for depth. We are uncharacteristically "healthy" this season on D with Fantenberg getting his 1st game in like the 30th game of the season. If we can ride this out and with the possibility of having Tryamkin return (I'm sure management has a good idea and his agent stating it won't take long to negotiate a deal sure makes it seem like it's a high likelihood), then there is no need for him.

 

The downside risk IMO is not allowing our internal depth get a look for a player that has an unlikelihood of being in our long term plans. He will require more "development" which takes away time from other potential players and Bowey simply doesn't have the upside that I feel is worth surpassing what we have in our system already.

 

Stecher has the drive that forces him into the lineup despite his size much like Biega. Bowey has not accomplished this over two teams and was beat out by Biega. If we felt we needed that depth for coverage, we could have simply kept Biega. If Bowey does clear though, I wonder if we trade back a nothing piece to acquire Bowey and it ends up being Biega for Bowey in the end which gives us his depth option and we don't waste a contract spot.

[Provost]

25 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Actually, we absolutely can. After making it to the NHL, draft position doesn't mean anything anymore. Hence, I didn't point out their draft spots. Using YOUR logic, Gudbranson should be outperforming Bowey, am I correct? Fact is, both defenceman are "fringe".

So, it's not "idiotic" because it's a different, opposing opinion than yours. I'm just saying that he's not worth adding in because he seems like he's a giveaway machine, which is not what we want.

 

 

Well after cutting out all the random Hughes and Bowey scouting reports you posted...

It is not idiotic because it is a differing opinion, it is idiotic to use the logic that we shouldn't get players unless they are as good as Hughes.  It isn't any sort of rational or reasonable standard to use.

If Hughes was on waivers, teams would probably pick him up... if it cost a 7th overall pick to acquire Bowey right now... teams probably say no to that.  It is apples to oranges and random nonsense to compare the two, the situations, cost, and expectations have zero overlap.  The only meaningful comparison is Chatfield (or Rafferty/Teves) and Bowey... because that is the same spot on the roster we are talking about.  Does Benning think Bowey has enough more upside than those guys to make a claim that otherwise costs us nothing.

Also, the stuff about Gudbranson and "my" logic is pretty incoherent and also entirely unrelated to anything I said.  Gudbranson is not a very good D, but if he was making a million dollars per year on an expiring contract.. he isn't a bad pick up for a team looking for a depth piece... AND he has had a lot more years of NHL development to show what he is.  Bowey still hasn't had that time and still has way more upside than Gudbranson.

 

[Gaudette Celly]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

This is probably the mentality that everyone has.

 

"Oh, he's on waivers. Claim!"

If it's a player on a good team, "Gotta pick him up, they just don't have room for him with all their good players."

If it's a player on a bad team, "Gotta pick him up, he's not the reason they're doing poorly."

 

Jayson Megna may be the only player ever to go on waivers that someone here didn't want to pick up.

[xereau]

This is just one line in the fingerprint Yzerman will put all over this team.

 

In 3 seasons, I predict 90% turnover, and another complete rebuild on his terms.

S1 tank is underway.

[aGENT]

16 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

Well after cutting out all the random Hughes and Bowey scouting reports you posted...

It is not idiotic because it is a differing opinion, it is idiotic to use the logic that we shouldn't get players unless they are as good as Hughes.  It isn't any sort of rational or reasonable standard to use.

If Hughes was on waivers, teams would probably pick him up... if it cost a 7th overall pick to acquire Bowey right now... teams probably say no to that.  It is apples to oranges and random nonsense to compare the two, the situations, cost, and expectations have zero overlap.  The only meaningful comparison is Chatfield (or Rafferty/Teves) and Bowey... because that is the same spot on the roster we are talking about.  Does Benning think Bowey has enough more upside than those guys to make a claim that otherwise costs us nothing.

Also, the stuff about Gudbranson and "my" logic is pretty incoherent and also entirely unrelated to anything I said.  Gudbranson is not a very good D, but if he was making a million dollars per year on an expiring contract.. he isn't a bad pick up for a team looking for a depth piece... AND he has had a lot more years of NHL development to show what he is.  Bowey still hasn't had that time and still has way more upside than Gudbranson.

 

I don't think we should pick him up as we've got a bunch of our own guys already in that AHL-8th D spot that have similar current upside etc but there's certainly an argument for someone to pick him up, for the reasons you pointed out. It's an entirely low risk gamble on a toolsy guy who could still turn in to a decent, likely bottom pair, NHL D.

 

I agree the comparisons to Hughes are baffling though 

[Provost]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

I don't think we should pick him up as we've got a bunch of our own guys already in that AHL-8th D spot that have similar current upside etc but there's certainly an argument for someone to pick him up, for the reasons you pointed out. It's an entirely low risk gamble on a toolsy guy who could still turn in to a decent, likely bottom pair, NHL D.

 

I agree the comparisons to Hughes are baffling though 

Yep, that is absolutely the decision.  I have no issue with someone who says they think our existing guys are a better bet... maybe true.  I am more bullish on Bowey, thinking he has a pretty good chance of being a legit 6-7 guy and possibly even a 4-5 guy who can play in lots of different situations.  I actually really like the idea of seeing how he and Benn would look as a pairing (assuming a RD injury).

[the grinder]

7 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

Well after cutting out all the random Hughes and Bowey scouting reports you posted...

It is not idiotic because it is a differing opinion, it is idiotic to use the logic that we shouldn't get players unless they are as good as Hughes.  It isn't any sort of rational or reasonable standard to use.

If Hughes was on waivers, teams would probably pick him up... if it cost a 7th overall pick to acquire Bowey right now... teams probably say no to that.  It is apples to oranges and random nonsense to compare the two, the situations, cost, and expectations have zero overlap.  The only meaningful comparison is Chatfield (or Rafferty/Teves) and Bowey... because that is the same spot on the roster we are talking about.  Does Benning think Bowey has enough more upside than those guys to make a claim that otherwise costs us nothing.

Also, the stuff about Gudbranson and "my" logic is pretty incoherent and also entirely unrelated to anything I said.  Gudbranson is not a very good D, but if he was making a million dollars per year on an expiring contract.. he isn't a bad pick up for a team looking for a depth piece... AND he has had a lot more years of NHL development to show what he is.  Bowey still hasn't had that time and still has way more upside than Gudbranson.

 

maybe 2 years ago the canucks would be putting in a claim for bowey  ,  when we had pouliot , hutton  guddy etc  ,  but again today we don't have the CAP SPACE for waiver wire pick ups  , We need to TRADE A FOWARD  to gain cap space  ,  then we can pick up from the scrap heap,   . there was a reason we sent beiga to Detroit , for a guy in echl  again for CAP reasons  .  Benning can ponder all he wants about guys on waivers , but the cost you say  is free ?   it isn't free  we need to make a trade first so that is gonna cost something  right?    loui plus   , baer plus  , sutter plus  just to make a deal to pick up bowey   now that's idiotic

[Alflives]

7 minutes ago, xereau said:

This is just one line in the fingerprint Yzerman will put all over this team.

 

In 3 seasons, I predict 90% turnover, and another complete rebuild on his terms.

S1 tank is underway.

Is Bowey too good to be on a tanking team, but not good enough to be part of the future, so Stevie Y cuts him?

[Provost]

Just now, the grinder said:

maybe 2 years ago the canucks would be putting in a claim for bowey  ,  when we had pouliot , hutton  guddy etc  ,  but again today we don't have the CAP SPACE for waiver wire pick ups  , We need to TRADE A FOWARD  to gain cap space  ,  then we can pick up from the scrap heap,   . there was a reason we sent beiga to Detroit , for a guy in echl  again for CAP reasons  .  Benning can ponder all he wants about guys on waivers , but the cost you say  is free ?   it isn't free  we need to make a trade first so that is gonna cost something  right?    loui plus   , baer plus  , sutter plus  just to make a deal to pick up bowey   now that's idiotic

Not true at all, we traded Biega because the team wanted to try to find him a landing spot where he could play in the NHL and not AHL.  There are no cap implications to either Biega or Bowey.  Their salaries are less than what can be buried in the minors so there is no cap downside at all.  They simply replace another player who has that much or more salary buried and gets waived to the minors.

As a matter of fact, there is slight cap relief by waiving a guy like Eriksson and carrying 8D instead of 14 forwards.  You get to bury $1.075 million of Eriksson's salary and replace it with $1 million of Bowey's salary for a cap savings of $75,000.

The only possible cap issue is if we find ourselves needing to only carry 22 players on the roster and not 23 players... so having both Fantenberg and Bowey would mean we couldn't carry a 13th forward.  In that case, we can waive Bowey with no cap implication anyways and aren't worse off than if we didn't claim him.

[Dazzle]

50 minutes ago, Provost said:

 

Well after cutting out all the random Hughes and Bowey scouting reports you posted...

It is not idiotic because it is a differing opinion, it is idiotic to use the logic that we shouldn't get players unless they are as good as Hughes.  It isn't any sort of rational or reasonable standard to use.

If Hughes was on waivers, teams would probably pick him up... if it cost a 7th overall pick to acquire Bowey right now... teams probably say no to that.  It is apples to oranges and random nonsense to compare the two, the situations, cost, and expectations have zero overlap.  The only meaningful comparison is Chatfield (or Rafferty/Teves) and Bowey... because that is the same spot on the roster we are talking about.  Does Benning think Bowey has enough more upside than those guys to make a claim that otherwise costs us nothing.

Also, the stuff about Gudbranson and "my" logic is pretty incoherent and also entirely unrelated to anything I said.  Gudbranson is not a very good D, but if he was making a million dollars per year on an expiring contract.. he isn't a bad pick up for a team looking for a depth piece... AND he has had a lot more years of NHL development to show what he is.  Bowey still hasn't had that time and still has way more upside than Gudbranson.

 

Actually, the aspect I wanted to draw on Hughes versus Bowey was the fact that Hughes MAY have to work hard to stay in the NHL (size being an issue), whereas Bowey, as quoted from that article, may not have to do a lot to transition in the NHL. Skill wise, yes, they are no comparison. They also play different styles.

 

Yet the benefit of adding Bowey, from what I see, is not significant enough to waste a roster spot for him. I cite the fact that he is not particularly good in any one area, aside from physicality. We can see this from his gaming samples around the league. You say we can add him as a "depth option", but we don't really need him.

 

The commentary from current DET fans seems to suggest that he isn't good enough for a BAD team. What makes you think he'll be good for a middling team? As people have said, Yzerman is no fool. He would've shopped Bowey around for anyone interested in him. Winnipeg out of all places needed a defenseman. What a great way to bring him back home, right?

Nothing.

 

Maybe Winnipeg will claim him for free though.

 

Regarding Gudbranson being mentioned, I wasn't the one that emphasized draft position on a player. (You were quick to mention Hughes being a high draft pick). Instead, I said that once a player has made the NHL, the draft position becomes quite meaningless. I do agree that Gudbranson ISN'T a very good defenseman, and his draft pick (also a high one - number 4) makes him look worse.  Bowey is essentially a much cheaper Gudbranson. A fringe defenceman with character. Gudbranson's character is very high, and from Bowey choosing 74 to honour Carlson (former teammate), I would say he can be comparable.

 

Given the fact that Bowey has seen much more NHL time than Hughes, we can generally see what type of player Bowey has become. I don't think he's worth claiming. The rational is that he's not good enough in any one area to warrant taking a risk. And yes, there IS a risk in putting him into the lineup when he's not ready (yet).

Edited December 9, 2019 by Dazzle

[the grinder]

lol 75.000 is nothing for cap relief  that we need   ,  and the canucks are still paying loui  so again getting bowey isn't free  ,  spin it any way you want   we cannot afford bowey until a trade is made   , which again is going to cost a prospect , a pick  or a good roster player   for a waiver wire pick up   ,   biega was traded because we couldn't afford him as a 7th dmen hence fantenberg  making league minimum as our 7th dmen  ,   

Edited December 9, 2019 by the grinder

[Bure_Pavel]

The Detroit team looks god awful on paper this year, after their first line its is essentially all plugs. Dennis Cholowski is a -21 in 28 games, Filppula is -27, and Athanasiou is -33 this year. 

[Dazzle]

Just now, the grinder said:

lol you don't get to bury 4.075 million dollars of loui salary  that his cap hit on the team once he is sent to the minors  and that still doesn't solve the cap problems we have  now  . we traded beiga because we couldn't afford his cap hit as a 7th   , hence fantberg making league minimum as our 7th dmen  ,    if loui is sent down to the ahl  the canucks save around a million dollars , and boweys contract is a million  so again no cap relief  and the canucks are paying more money for your free pick up and in cap hell still  

Also the fact that Bowey isn't really that good. People remember him as the WHL defenseman, not the NHL defenseman he has become so far.

[canuck73_3]

I remember when cdc was ready to sell the farm for this dud.