Lack of an NHL level Offensive system means lack of even strength scoring

[EdgarM]

6 hours ago, DefCon1 said:

All teams struggle, true. Do all teams also deploy the same players on the ice for the last 3 minutes of the game and give up empty net goals the second the goalie goes to the bench? or how about standing still during PK? How about always being unprepared for the 1st period of the game? Only teams that have this problem would be bottom feeding last place teams. Unless you are ok with this team being last place, this coaching is not ok. Anyone can see that, even people who dont watch much hockey can see it. 

Well said, I am glad I am not the only one that sees these things. This and his line combinations remind me of Willy D antics. The Magma,Weber and Kaput years ewe!! I seen some great chemistry between Miller and Virtanen last game but I am sure it went completely over TG's head and he will return to his regular line ups next game, unfortunately.

[EdgarM]

6 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Well said, I am glad I am not the only one that sees these things. This and his line combinations remind me of Willy D antics. The Magma,Weber and Kaput years ewe!! I seen some great chemistry between Miller and Virtanen last game but I am sure it went completely over TG's head and he will return to his regular line ups next game, unfortunately.

As predicted, TG is back to the same ol' line up that has plagued this losing streak. Oh well.

[RonMexico]

39 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

As predicted, TG is back to the same ol' line up that has plagued this losing streak. Oh well.

 

Frantically switching lines after every mediocre or poor shift is a sign of desperation.

[wai_lai416]

Our offense system is one of the most frustrating to watch... dump and chase.. and when we do get the puck.. we move it around slowly... so defensemen and goalie gets into position to block or make the save.. the good offensive team plays with puck with way quicker pace... watching the canucks on offense 5v5 is like watching the game on TV played at 0.5x speed

[The Colt 45s]

22 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Our offense system is one of the most frustrating to watch... dump and chase.. and when we do get the puck.. we move it around slowly... so defensemen and goalie gets into position to block or make the save.. the good offensive team plays with puck with way quicker pace... watching the canucks on offense 5v5 is like watching the game on TV played at 0.5x speed

It is a time waster.  Just have to have a perfect shot that goes to the back of the net, cause a scramble leading to a shot, or a deflection.  The problem is the Sedins have retired and with the offensive punch we have we need to use our speed to our good.  But I think Coach Green does not want us having to score 8 to win a game either.

[lmm]

On 12/18/2019 at 5:33 PM, coastal.view said:

so you say jb/green are responsible

to accurately forecast player injuries

 

or are you just pointing out the unproductive asset issues

but have no solutions

 

i see loui as an ownership decision

loungo has nothing to do with present management

 

the rest are injury fall out issues

 

so yeah i mostly blame the hockey gods

are you saying you couldn't see the Ferland, Baertschi and Elder injuries coming?

the only surprise about that crew is that Chris Tanev isn't part of it, oh and Brandon Sutter who was signed after his first groin surgery

[stawns]

On 12/17/2019 at 11:11 PM, Dazzle said:

The excessive amount of chase and dumps - and the fact that the coach has been seemingly fine about it - is kind of alarming.

 

Peter DeBoer should be an interesting hire tbh. We need better assistants though.

 

 

 

Anyone who complains about dump and chase doesn't really understand how the game is played, imo.

[stawns]

On 12/21/2019 at 6:32 PM, wai_lai416 said:

Our offense system is one of the most frustrating to watch... dump and chase.. and when we do get the puck.. we move it around slowly... so defensemen and goalie gets into position to block or make the save.. the good offensive team plays with puck with way quicker pace... watching the canucks on offense 5v5 is like watching the game on TV played at 0.5x speed

Every team plays the D&C.........it's a thousand times better than a turn over at the Blue line.  If you come through the nzone and there's no clear path onto the zone, d&c is your absolute best play

[Borvat]

I can't put my finger on it but it seems TG is either playing "not to lose", doesn't have faith in his players or is coaching to keep his job rather than trusting in his players to get the job done.  He leans heavily on the players he feels safe with way too much.  All of those (or any combination) don't bode well for developing young offensively gifted players.  They need the ability to play "their" game to a certain degree and have the confidence of their coaches that if they make a  mistake it won't end in being stapled to the bench.  If not they will get frustrated eventually or worse their development will get stunted. 

 

I wonder if some of them are at that point already - frustrated.  Bo definitely doesn't look the same for one although I wonder if he is playing through some type of injury.  Maybe this team has outgrown TG's style and need someone else to take the next step.  Time will tell but my fear is that as the younger players are ready to make the jump - Rathbone, Rafferty,  Lind, Madden, Juolevi etc. TG won't trust them and let them develop.  His coaching style is like watching paint dry at times.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Borvat

[bree2]

On 12/18/2019 at 10:46 PM, CptCanuck16 said:

Every hockey commentator identifies the same weaknesses in our system within 20 minutes of watching them play yet Green seems oblivious. Hell, my 90 year old grandma can see the problem and she's only got one good eye! 

every hockey commentator is a stretch

[Baggins]

5 hours ago, stawns said:

Anyone who complains about dump and chase doesn't really understand how the game is played, imo.

You take what the opposition gives you.

[stawns]

42 minutes ago, Baggins said:

You take what the opposition gives you.

Exactly

[stawns]

On 12/19/2019 at 1:52 AM, DefCon1 said:

All teams struggle, true. Do all teams also deploy the same players on the ice for the last 3 minutes of the game and give up empty net goals the second the goalie goes to the bench? or how about standing still during PK? How about always being unprepared for the 1st period of the game? Only teams that have this problem would be bottom feeding last place teams. Unless you are ok with this team being last place, this coaching is not ok. Anyone can see that, even people who dont watch much hockey can see it. 

Most teams do that for stretches during a season.........of course they do.  It's not a video game

[stawns]

6 hours ago, Borvat said:

I can't put my finger on it but it seems TG is either playing "not to lose", doesn't have faith in his players or is coaching to keep his job rather than trusting in his players to get the job done.  He leans heavily on the players he feels safe with way too much.  All of those (or any combination) don't bode well for developing young offensively gifted players.  They need the ability to play "their" game to a certain degree and have the confidence of their coaches that if they make a  mistake it won't end in being stapled to the bench.  If not they will get frustrated eventually or worse their development will get stunted. 

 

I wonder if some of them are at that point already - frustrated.  Bo definitely doesn't look the same for one although I wonder if he is playing through some type of injury.  Maybe this team has outgrown TG's style and need someone else to take the next step.  Time will tell but my fear is that as the younger players are ready to make the jump - Rathbone, Rafferty,  Lind, Madden, Juolevi etc. TG won't trust them and let them develop.  His coaching style is like watching paint dry at times.

Or it's a team dependent on young players.......and young players are inconsistent and streaky.  They are playing almost exactly the way I thought they would be 

[CptCanuck16]

3 hours ago, Baggins said:

You take what the opposition gives you.

Nah, you gotta drive the play if you want to win. Play on your heels and you won't be winning many hockey games.  

 

But anyway, the actual point I wanted to make is that due to the system they play they frequently only have the dump in option.  The Canucks  "break out" consists of two forwards racing up to the blue line and waiting, while the 3rd forward takes the pass from the  D. What typically happens is;

 

1. The 3rd forward is covered so the D try a long stretch pass that often just gets tipped in to the zone. 

2. The 3rd forward trys to carry the puck up ice but gets pressured and then dumps it in.

3. The 3rd forward passes to one of the other two on the wing but since they're standing still they have no time to do anything other than dump it in. 

 

I  was watching the Pen's breakout very carefully last game because they're known for their effective breakout. What I noticed was that more often than not they use 4 players skating pretty much in line with each other.  It gives more passing options and is harder to defend against than our Junior  B strategy. Literally the only reason we aren't dead last in the Western Conference playing that silly system is because we have talent like Hughes and Petterson who can make things happen by themselves. 

 

[wai_lai416]

10 hours ago, stawns said:

Every team plays the D&C.........it's a thousand times better than a turn over at the Blue line.  If you come through the nzone and there's no clear path onto the zone, d&c is your absolute best play

lol if dump and chase a few time in a game means every team plays dump and chase.. i guess?? they are basically taught to dump and chase no matter what unless it's a odd man rush.. they ain't a great forechecking team.. and wasting energy to try to get the puck back every shift is not a recipe for success.. dump and chase works if your team is full of grinders.. not when your team is full of skill players.. just like this team is programmed to do the drop pass on every single zone entry on the power play no matter what..

[stawns]

18 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol if dump and chase a few time in a game means every team plays dump and chase.. i guess?? they are basically taught to dump and chase no matter what unless it's a odd man rush.. they ain't a great forechecking team.. and wasting energy to try to get the puck back every shift is not a recipe for success.. dump and chase works if your team is full of grinders.. not when your team is full of skill players.. just like this team is programmed to do the drop pass on every single zone entry on the power play no matter what..

They hardly dump and chase every time......at most it's 60/40.  If there's nothing there, a dump and chase is a far better play than trying to force something out of nothing and turning the puck over at the blue line and getting caught on odd man rushes.  If you've got nothing, you advance the puck deep and try and force turnovers.

[VancouverHabitant]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:54 PM, *Buzzsaw* said:

 

The question is, why is this team challenged to score at even strength?

 

Quite simply, the coaching style that Green is promoting is not up to the standards of the NHL.

 

That's your opinion, man  

[Dats hockey]

4 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

That's your opinion, man  

It’s not like it’s not a valid point, we went through a massive stretch were we just couldn’t score 5v5.

[Phat Fingers]

On 12/18/2019 at 2:54 AM, *Buzzsaw* said:

There is no question this team has plenty of firepower and players who can shoot the puck and score.

 

When you consider Pettersson, Boeser, Miller, Horvat, Hughes, Pearson, Sutter and Virtanen, there is no reason to doubt we have players will puck skill.

 

We have also got a team with plenty of speed, considering Virtanen, Horvat, Miller, Pearson, Pettersson, Hughes, Roussel and Gaudette.

 

But this team is challenged to score at even strength.

 

Let's look at the facts.... below is a list of the top 5 NHL teams as well as their overall goal scoring and percentage PP scoring.

 

Washington  101 even strength goals  -  24 PP goals,   total goals125...   19.2 % of total from PP.

Boston  91 even strength goals - 27 PP goals, total goals 118...   22.9% of total from PP. 

St Louis  83 even strength goals -  24 PP goals,  total 107 goals...   22.4% of total from PP.

NY Islanders  80 even strength goals - 15 PP goals, total 95 goals...  15.8% of total from PP.

Colorado  96 even strength goals -  23 PP goals, total 119 goals...  19.3%  of total from PP.

 

Now look at Vancouver:

Vancouver 79 even strength goals... 32 PP goals, total of 111 goals...  28.8% of goals from PP.  

 

The Canucks have a significantly higher percentage of their goals from the PP.... and they are fortunate to have had a huge number of PP opportunities... otherwise they would be much worse in the standings.  The Canucks have less even strength goals than notoriously defensive minded teams like St Louis and the Islanders.

 

Look at the total of even strength goals per game for Washington and Vancouver:

 

Washington:    2.89 goals per game even strength

Vancouver:      2.25 goals per game even strength

 

Depending on your PP to win games does not have a long term sucess record.  Other teams can avoid taking penalties... and in the Playoffs, the whistles get put away.

 

The question is, why is this team challenged to score at even strength?

 

Quite simply, the coaching style that Green is promoting is not up to the standards of the NHL.

 

It is not allowing the team to consistently gain the O-Zone in possession of the puck.

 

If you look at the even strength goals the Canucks have scored in the last two months... most of them have not resulted from Dump and Chase... they have resulted from players gaining the O-Zone in possession... Adam Gaudette's last two goals are perfect examples.

 

When you gain the O-Zone in possession, it almost always results in a shot... and the opportunity for a rebound.

 

In fact, Green's system, which heavily relies on Dump and Chase, requires more effort... it is a fact Dump and Chase requires more energy to execute than pass to enter or carrying the puck into the zone... Players must forecheck to regain possession.  And even if they regain the puck, they are on the boards, not moving with speed, and away from a clear shot at the front of the net.

 

This team did well at the start of the season with Green's system... when they had lots of energy and the other team's were loosey goosey.  But things have tightened up, goals have gotten scarcer, and Green has not adapted.

 

With the exception of moment's of genius by Quinn Hughes, the team does not have a system in place to gain the O-Zone in possession. 

 

Green's basic system is dump and chase... the players will try to gain the zone in possession, but they have not been coached in the systems and structures which will allow them to do that consistently.

 

What we see is:

 

-  Dump in at the Red line

 

-  Defenseman shoots the puck at a forward standing at the opposing blueline and he deflects it in

 

-  One player tries to carry the puck in without support

 

-  Two or three players line abreast try to move in together.... if they get across the blue line the puck is usually dumped to the wing, followed by a shot on net with the hope for a rebound.

 

-  Single winger enters and button hooks, but almost never has support

 

What you don't see:

 

-  Canuck players criss cross prior to the blue line to confuse the defense.

 

-  Timed drop pass to a follow up forward or D after the initial player crosses the blue line.

 

-  Timed button hooks to the follow up player moving at speed through the center of the ice.

 

-  Spacing of entries to allow the followup on the wing to receive a drop pass from the initial winger entry... followed by a cut to the middle of the ice.

 

In most cases it comes down to positioning and lack of support.... which are the basics.... they should be on any Coaches playbook.

 

Green says he wants to simplify the Canuck's game... but he has simplified it to the point it is completely predictable.

This is a young team, really as a group, completely revamped, retooled, rebuilt going into this season.  

 

That you are referencing the top 5 teams in the league and we are in the conversation is itself a revelation from the previous 4 years.  

 

5v5 scoring is tougher and it needs to improve of this group it to be successful.  Okay.  I bet the whole club from the ice clearing crew to Aqua man would say the same thing.  

 

All great points and alot of work went into your research.  All valid.  

 

Looking at the clubs on your list, they have been playing together for years.  They have the ability to know what the other is doing without thinking.  That takes time, practice and repetition.  

 

Signs of great chemistry are all there for this group, but they have to work at it, process it a micro second that the top 5 teams dont need due to their time together.  

 

Adapting to adversity is the current hump.  Green has made adjustments and players are getting healthy, Edler is back and we won.  Not an outlier.  He eats minutes that Hughes didn't have to play, Hughes has a great night.  Less defensive lapses and the big oilers line is held pointless and is -3.  

 

This team can beat the top teams in the west.  If we make the playoffs, it would be as a wc team.  This group has worldbeater darkhorse potential.  

 

One huge positive that is not being talked about in your OP is secondary scoring.  We have scoring threats in our top 3 lines.  We have 7 players on pace to score 20 goals this season. Ep40, Brock, JT, Bo, Pearson, Jake and Gaudette. 

 

Almost 8 had Lievo not been injured (he was picking up his pace just prior to being hurt)  Hughes is on pace for a 60 point rookie campaign.  With Edler back, Quinn should be able to focus on his offence more.  The shot production that Hughes creates is insane. 

 

Markstrom has had a really emotionally rough first half.  His demeanor is far more intense than previous years and he is stopping the right pucks.  No back breakers this year and he is stealing games.  

 

Our 5v5 scoring is in need of improving.  In the last 3 games the club has scored first.  That was a huge issue in the 5 game skid.  Green made adjustments and the team responded.  Green still has the room.  

 

The first half is over and I still see this team as a playoff team.  Although with the JT deal, maybe we just miss this year and for fracking once, we move up in the Lotto.