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Did Tampa Provide Tactics To Dismantle Nucks Team D Structure

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4 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I find it hard to believe that Benning (being the former AGM of Boston, who were one of the most physically imposing teams in the last two decades), would want to see the team he's building being pushed around.

This is so true. A former Bruin A/GM with that nasty piece of business team they had 10 years ago. Maybe he's been trying? Drafting Virtanen with his 1st pick and then Tryamkin with the 3rd that first year, then bringing in size/grit (Dorsett, Prust, Gudbranson, Schenn, Schaller, etc), and now Ferland. I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't go after Lucic. I know the speed thing is an issue, but he never gets injured and not too many opponents want to tangle with him.  Not that I really wanted Lucic, but I'm surprised Jim didn't go after his former player.

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32 minutes ago, xereau said:

The Canucks' rinky dink midget level 5 man collapse system

 

+


Tampas speed and puck handling skill

 

=

 

that absolute crapshow from the other night.


We all got to see exactly the level at which our coach operates: base.

so is that because he doesn't think the team has the skill to play any other way? 

 

Its a bit confusing. When I watch the team fumble at the blue line like someone put up a rope it makes me wonder what its is they're being told to do? How can we not have the skill to avoid fumbling our own entries ourselves? and then as you say collapse back. 

 

I dunno, i don't have the coaching knowledge to suggest a solution, but I used Pits as an example as there always seems to be the ability for a set of short crisp passes to get out of trouble and there always seems to be a man ready to either accept the pass or get a team mate out of trouble. I don't see that often with our team and I'm not sure why. 

 

 

Edited by Jimmy McGill
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5 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

This is so true. A former Bruin A/GM with that nasty piece of business team they had 10 years ago. Maybe he's been trying? Drafting Virtanen with his 1st pick and then Tryamkin with the 3rd that first year, then bringing in size/grit (Dorsett, Prust, Gudbranson, Schenn, Schaller, etc), and now Ferland. I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't go after Lucic. I know the speed thing is an issue, but he never gets injured and not too many opponents want to tangle with him.  Not that I really wanted Lucic, but I'm surprised Jim didn't go after his former player.

Jim did but Lucic wanted to play with Mcdavid instead and then we signed Loui. 

 

Edit * rumour is it at last years deadline Jim went after Lucic again. 

Edited by RowdyCanuck
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Yes, the whole Canuck team from Marky out played a very poor game.  However, the fact that Edler and Myers were giving up the puck in their own zone constantly (when pressured) didn't help and lead to at least two of the Tampa goals.  Let's hope everyone learns from this and improves their game from rink end to end.

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37 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

and look at the games we've won , we playe hard and with snarl. 

thats true, look at our best line - Miller has influenced that line to the point that Pettersson is forechecking often (and doing a decent job too). 

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10 minutes ago, xereau said:

There was a shift the other night where Tampa's 3rd or 4th line hemmed in our 3rd line for well over a minute.

 

They walked the puck around the outside with absolute impunity, took shots, got the puck back 4x or so after shots/chances.

 

You could see our line "playing the system" the entire shift.

 

Finally, after over a minute of the nonsense, Jake broke formation, and smashed a guy.


And we got the puck back half a second later, because someone, finally, took the body.

 

The passive defensive system of this team is hilariously lame, and it's a real problem because if this is all they can come up with, we should be looking elsewhere.

 

Ever wonder why we are getting outshot 2:1 by the middle of every game?  It's the system.


The team is being told to sit back, and get in the way of shots and passes, but do not chase the puck or theman.


This is what happens when analytics takes over the game.

I saw the same. An adherence to a system that was passive and clearly wasn't working. Clearly you're not only a fan of the Canucks, but also of hockey in general, and are able to see the system from the team. These defensive systems are pretty bush league and aren't always obvious to the eye, usually because Markstrom or Demko are shutting the door, or the forwards are able to break out and spend time in the opposition's end.

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6 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

This is so true. A former Bruin A/GM with that nasty piece of business team they had 10 years ago. Maybe he's been trying? Drafting Virtanen with his 1st pick and then Tryamkin with the 3rd that first year, then bringing in size/grit (Dorsett, Prust, Gudbranson, Schenn, Schaller, etc), and now Ferland. I'm actually kind of surprised he didn't go after Lucic. I know the speed thing is an issue, but he never gets injured and not too many opponents want to tangle with him.  Not that I really wanted Lucic, but I'm surprised Jim didn't go after his former player.

It seems that somewhere along the line, that physical, pack mentality type of hockey is being stifled.

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8 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Also remember I know Lucic isn't that good but Jim went after him also so I would say Jim isn't the passive one ha

I don't think Jim wants to see his team not fight back, but that's what I'm seeing some nights. An almost complete lack of pushback.

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I watched the Tampa feed for the game and the announcers were flabbergasted at how much space and time the canucks were giving Kucherov. Green's system seems so rudimentary. It reminds me of the Guy Boucher system when he coached Tampa. It doesn't make sense why you wouldn't pressure someone to force them to make a play/mistake. You take away their time and space and no matter how good they are they're going to make a mistake. Green seems to think that if no one moves then no one can get out of position and we can take time off the clock while everything is to the perimeter. It's just too simplistic for the NHL. Markstrom, and at times Demko, is the main reason we win a lot of these games. When he falters the team is exploited.

 

Edited by peaches5
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22 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

so is that because he doesn't think the team has the skill to play any other way? 

 

Its a bit confusing. When I watch the team fumble at the blue line like someone put up a rope it makes me wonder what its is they're being told to do? How can we not have the skill to avoid fumbling our own entries ourselves? and then as you say collapse back. 

 

I dunno, i don't have the coaching knowledge to suggest a solution, but I used Pits as an example as there always seems to be the ability for a set of short crisp passes to get out of trouble and there always seems to be a man ready to either accept the pass or get a team mate out of trouble. I don't see that often with our team and I'm not sure why. 

 

 

Collapsing is great. As long as its not all you do.

 

Green is 100% predictable, pretty much he refuses to or is not able to change things on the fly.

 

And it is MIXING THINGS UP, that keeps other teams guessing.

 

But make no bones, this team has a 5 man collapse defensive structure, and it allows teams like Tampa, with speed and puck handling to the extreme, to absolutely make us look like amateurs. Collapsing is fine, like I said, but when the opportunity presents itself, our guys NEED to take the man, because also like I said, this is not a game played on paper./screens like a lot of those who are running things behind the team seem to think it is.

 

What we are seeing present itself on the ice, is a battle between hockey players and their guts, and an analytical blanket that's been tossed over the entire team.

 

They are playing the 5 man collapse because "it works". about 55% of the time. Which may, or may not be enough to get the team into the playoffs.


What about when you get there and get walked 4 games straight and get bounced to a possession team?

 

This team is 'learning' the coach says. Learning what, exactly?

Edited by xereau
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2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

thats true, look at our best line - Miller has influenced that line to the point that Pettersson is forechecking often (and doing a decent job too). 

Last season we all saw at times petey show snarl with his revise hits and that's one of the reason I see a lite peter Forsberg and I think we have a star player that will lead us to WINNING our first cup. 

 

Miller has been huge though , he strikes me as a kesler like and hates losing even in practice so that's huge too. These are the type of guys we need more of but we do have some in the pipeline guys like Lind hoglander and VP. 

See we have enough players to play with snarl and that's with different guys stepping up and making hits night in and night out. 

I would say adding a Reeves would help but now I'm not sure....and now I question coaching.....cause hitters need freedom to make hits just like skill players need freedom too. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

I watched the Tampa feed for the game and the announcers were flabbergasted at how much space and time the canucks were giving Kucherov. Green's system seems so rudimentary. It reminds me of the Guy Boucher system when he coached Tampa. It doesn't make sense why you wouldn't pressure someone to force them to make a play/mistake. You take away their time and space and no matter how good they are they're going to make a mistake. Green seems to think that if no one moves then no one can get out of position and we can take time off the clock while everything is to the perimeter. It's just too simplistic for the NHL. Markstrom, and at times Demko, is the main reason we win a lot of these games. When he falters the team is exploited.

 

It's a blanket system that's meant to eek out points over a season, and incredible possession teams like Tampa can eat it alive.

 

By the way, did anyone else notice Hedman intercepting essentially every single breakout by the team?

 

Hedman is an incredible player, I will give him that.

 

But he is NOT The Amazing Kreskin.

 

He single handedly dismantled whoever's breakout system it was that got absolutely hung out to dry. Green? Baumgartner?

 

In the end it really doesn't matter whose systems it was, as it was being eviscerated.

 

All that matters is that we got exposed, hard, and the team/coach/system really had no real time solution.

Edited by xereau
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14 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I don't think Jim wants to see his team not fight back, but that's what I'm seeing some nights. An almost complete lack of pushback.

To me that's a coaching thing.....all it would take is Green tapping guys on the shoulder and giving them the green light , like when av would tell glass to go fight someone....the coach gets the feel for the game and he can either set the tone or answer back but green isn't doing either right now....

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32 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

It seems that somewhere along the line, that physical, pack mentality type of hockey is being stifled.

I think part of it is the change in the world and the change in the game.....

now it's rare to find a MT or Jake so guys like them go higher in the draft, I would be willing to bet money that guys like Jamie Benn and Lucic wouldn't fall in a todays draft cause look at guys like max Jones and Nolan Foote going in the first round. 

Meanness is now the rare skill and just skill guys are common now. 

Dont get me wrong there's different levels of skill so not all skill is common but guys like Ehlers and Willie are in pretty much every draft now. ( playing style) 

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1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said:

I think part of it is the change in the world and the change in the game.....

now it's rare to find a MT or Jake so guys like them go higher in the draft, I would be willing to bet money that guys like Jamie Benn and Lucic wouldn't fall in a todays draft cause look at guys like max Jones and Nolan Foote going in the first round. 

Meanness is now the rare skill and just skill guys are common now. 

Dont get me wrong there's different levels of skill so not all skill is common but guys like Ehlers and Willie are in pretty much every draft now. ( playing style) 

True. With all the talk about skill and speed, the game is still a physical one. Teams that have players who are willing to do anything to win, and coaches willing to let them do it, will always be successful. Players that don't want to get their hands dirty and coaches that muzzle physical players, wont.

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Personally, I think it was just one of those games....

 

....however, I'd say that "dismantling" is a bit of an understatement. TBL "dismantled" the 'Nucks' D in much the same manner that Little Boy "dismantled" Hiroshima.....

 

As a former coach myself, I don't believe that film of a laugher like that helps the team that got beaten, or any team that might be playing them in the future. If you're the Panthers and expect that game film to provide any insight on how to exploit the Canucks' defense, I think you're going to be disappointed.

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30 minutes ago, xereau said:

Collapsing is great. As long as its not all you do.

 

Green is 100% predictable, pretty much he refuses to or is not able to change things on the fly.

 

And it is MIXING THINGS UP, that keeps other teams guessing.

 

But make no bones, this team has a 5 man collapse defensive structure, and it allows teams like Tampa, with speed and puck handling to the extreme, to absolutely make us look like amateurs. Collapsing is fine, like I said, but when the opportunity presents itself, our guys NEED to take the man, because also like I said, this is not a game played on paper./screens like a lot of those who are running things behind the team seem to think it is.

 

What we are seeing present itself on the ice, is a battle between hockey players and their guts, and an analytical blanket that's been tossed over the entire team.

 

They are playing the 5 man collapse because "it works". about 55% of the time. Which may, or may not be enough to get the team into the playoffs.


What about when you get there and get walked 4 games straight and get bounced to a possession team?

 

This team is 'learning' the coach says. Learning what, exactly?

OK so it begs the question - do we have the skills to do anything else effectively? If the answer is yes, then why isn't Green doing it?

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3 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

True. With all the talk about skill and speed, the game is still a physical one. Teams that have players who are willing to do anything to win, and coaches willing to let them do it, will always be successful. Players that don't want to get their hands dirty and coaches that muzzle physical players, wont.

I agree and in the pasted a team like the Hawks took advantage of the drafting style or system and now you cant predict where mean guys go in the draft cause they thinned the herd big time since ever player has to be able to skate at a higher level now. 

 

We we have the players to be an a hole team but Green needs to green light players to make hits and scrum it up cause fighting isn't really in the game anymore and if Jake or rooster piss off one enough to fight , it's not like it's either of their first fights.....

reminds me of DD when he shut down and got under the skin of mcdavid didn't have to fight but ever time mcdavid had the puck DD would make him pay.

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12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

OK so it begs the question - do we have the skills to do anything else effectively? If the answer is yes, then why isn't Green doing it?

You could say our players made that system work and look way better and cause we have such a deep team or balanced team we win....also how many of those games we won did petey or Hughes take it over...

honestly I think even WD could coach this team and we probably have a similar record......our team overall skill level has gotten higher this year and if you look at this team on paper it should be a pain in the rear every night. 

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