theo5789 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, canuck2288 said: I suppose that is what concerns me the most. The law of averages will catch up when the puck possession and scoring chances are close. It’s concerning when we are constantly in our own end giving up quality goal scoring chances because winning in those circumstances is not sustainable in the long run. what further exasperates it is when our special teams get outplayed..then it’s a real uphill battle this is where coaches come into play. Our penalty killing is poor and powerplay system is awful. I think a lot of people on here do agree that Brown and Baumer need to go (no clue why they were extended). Ultimately Green is in charge and Those 2 report to him. For him to accept that type of play, coaching and lack of structure is on him next is the in game management. Adjusting line matchups, post icing matchups, powerplay lineups. For example, Jake should replace Brock Or Bo in pp line 1. We just stick with the status quo. Until recently Green never used his timeouts. Rarely speaks to the team during the game. that’s the root of my frustration with our coaching staff Our PP is 4th in the league, whatever we are doing "wrong" is working. Our PK used to be very good, but it has slipped and could use some improvement. Sutter helped in this regard being a strong faceoff man. We have two designated "checking" lines. We don't have the system where we have one line focusing on the opposition top line. In today's game, many teams have a couple strong attacks. This is why Green wants responsible play from all 4 lines so anyone can be ready for anyone. Once again, tough when you have some young guys learning the ropes still. IMO the defensive side of the game is harder to fine tune than the spotlighted offense (this is where Podkolzin is going to shine through because he's committed to the defensive side of the game already). Green gets criticized for blending the lines and not allowing chemistry. Now I'm hearing how coaching should be shaking things up. Our PP units are 4th in the league as mentioned, so maybe they're simply letting them get through any funks as they seem to be effective enough. You have your views, they just seem to be very negative. I want to see improvements, but I have faith it'll happen. Sometimes it takes a bit longer to adjust as they try different things first. I'm trusting the process as I've seen growth from the team over the years and I still feel they are headed in the right direction and they are currently where I had projected the to be and they are still well within the fight for a playoff spot over halfway through the year. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 3 hours ago, canuck2288 said: I suppose that is what concerns me the most. The law of averages will catch up when the puck possession and scoring chances are close. It’s concerning when we are constantly in our own end giving up quality goal scoring chances because winning in those circumstances is not sustainable in the long run. what further exasperates it is when our special teams get outplayed..then it’s a real uphill battle this is where coaches come into play. Our penalty killing is poor and powerplay system is awful. I think a lot of people on here do agree that Brown and Baumer need to go (no clue why they were extended). Ultimately Green is in charge and Those 2 report to him. For him to accept that type of play, coaching and lack of structure is on him next is the in game management. Adjusting line matchups, post icing matchups, powerplay lineups. For example, Jake should replace Brock Or Bo in pp line 1. We just stick with the status quo. Until recently Green never used his timeouts. Rarely speaks to the team during the game. that’s the root of my frustration with our coaching staff Some of this may be partially correct. However our "awful " PP is top five league wide and our skilled players, especially EP, are constantly drawing penalties - would call it a strength not a weakness, and after 10 years of dishwashing during the Sedins era it's a breath of fresh air. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it's not a coaching or team problem this year. Our PK does suffer when Edler isn't in the lineup - but he's back, it's missing big ball Sutter too. Coaching staff has to work with what they have. The defensive coaching is one thing I do think needs a change. Not a big fan of collapsing into a box either - depending on how things go the next while it wouldn't be a surprise to see some alterations. In the end we have to work with what we have - our forward group is more or less set for the next five years and will only get better as the team matures and some our better prospects take jobs away from relatively expensive vets. If OJ doesn't work out can't see the team making a trade to bolster the defense. Horvat for Werenksi? Don't know...maybe Tree comes home too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck2288 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 minute ago, IBatch said: Some of this may be partially correct. However our "awful " PP is top five league wide and our skilled players, especially EP, are constantly drawing penalties - would call it a strength not a weakness, and after 10 years of dishwashing during the Sedins era it's a breath of fresh air. Not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it's not a coaching or team problem this year. Our PK does suffer when Edler isn't in the lineup - but he's back, it's missing big ball Sutter too. Coaching staff has to work with what they have. The defensive coaching is one thing I do think needs a change. Not a big fan of collapsing into a box either - depending on how things go the next while it wouldn't be a surprise to see some alterations. In the end we have to work with what we have - our forward group is more or less set for the next five years and will only get better as the team matures and some our better prospects take jobs away from relatively expensive vets. If OJ doesn't work out can't see the team making a trade to bolster the defense. Horvat for Werenksi? Don't know...maybe Tree comes home too. We def need Tree back there I am optimistic that some of the younger guys will help as well the biggest issue is our d zone system as a whole. Passive when we don’t have the puck and a tire fire when we do have the puck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toyotasfan Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Boeser scores ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, canuck2288 said: I suppose that is what concerns me the most. The law of averages will catch up when the puck possession and scoring chances are close. It’s concerning when we are constantly in our own end giving up quality goal scoring chances because winning in those circumstances is not sustainable in the long run. what further exasperates it is when our special teams get outplayed..then it’s a real uphill battle this is where coaches come into play. Our penalty killing is poor and powerplay system is awful. I think a lot of people on here do agree that Brown and Baumer need to go (no clue why they were extended). Ultimately Green is in charge and Those 2 report to him. For him to accept that type of play, coaching and lack of structure is on him next is the in game management. Adjusting line matchups, post icing matchups, powerplay lineups. For example, Jake should replace Brock Or Bo in pp line 1. We just stick with the status quo. Until recently Green never used his timeouts. Rarely speaks to the team during the game. that’s the root of my frustration with our coaching staff Who is responsible for the team coach/coaching’s performance? Jim Benning Whatever you perceive the symptoms of poor coaching to be, why haven’t you (and I know it’s not just you yammering away on here about coaching) addressed the root, which is the GM’s apparent failure to understand the role of head coach as well as you and the other experts in here do? What level of coaching certificate do you have and which level of competitive hockey did you last coach? If someone were to describe/define certain hockey tactics relating to systems, could you name them, beyond “drop pass” if applied to the PP, etc? Your knowledge might come in handy, if not tested, soon. Edited January 11, 2020 by 189lb enforcers? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck2288 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Who is responsible for the team coach/coaching’s performance? Jim Benning Whatever you perceive the symptoms of poor coaching to be, why haven’t you (and I know it’s not just you yammering away on here about coaching) addressed the root, which is the GM’s apparent failure to understand the role of head coach as well as you and the other experts in here do? What level of coaching certificate do you have and which level of competitive hockey did you last coach? If someone were to describe/define certain hockey tactics relating to systems, could you name them, beyond “drop pass” if applied to the PP, etc? Your knowledge might come in handy, if not tested, soon. I like what Benning has done for the team from a roster perspective i agree he is to blame for the poor coaching hires as for me, I played to junior b and still play competitively so yes I know just a little about the game I am also a nccp certified coach, so yes I know a little about coaching 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 hour ago, canuck2288 said: I like what Benning has done for the team from a roster perspective i agree he is to blame for the poor coaching hires as for me, I played to junior b and still play competitively so yes I know just a little about the game I am also a nccp certified coach, so yes I know a little about coaching Then why only rip on the coaches? JB is the guy in charge. I don’t see many references to JB when posters are ripping coaching. And cool, good post. FYI to some...? Jr B is one step above Midget rep, RIP “midget”. (Was always a strange word choice, IMO, “Midget”) After minor hockey/midget hockey, kids who still want and can play, tryout for Jr B, or further up, while others go onto other things, like life, employment and university. I like to watch the Jr tournaments. https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/hockey-programs/coaching/essentials/nccp/levels-requirements As the link describes, NCCP certified can mean a lot of things, like being a coach of 6 year-olds in soccer or a perhaps a mentor at a business, it does not mean you are a certified hockey coach at any level, let alone competitively. A Hockey Canada certification is broken down into several tiers. I suppose at some point there is a module for “systems” in the competitive courses, but even then, I’m curious who on here could name any particular “system” being employed around the league. Collapsing, that’s a tactic, not a system. Same with drop-pass, etc. Left Wing Lock, etc. Some of that, like “the trap”, is almost cliche in its generic application here, in my experience. There are a handful of posters here who I think could legitimately describe a system and even label those. A handful. Playing Jr B does not qualify one for this expertise, as I’m certain you’ll agree with. Some players are just players, like at any job. I think this is an important distinction. I do think you have to have played some level of competitive sports to get sport. This is not to say that if you haven’t, your opinions are void, not at all. Hitchcock was a hell of a coach, but not a player, etc. Also, like broken clocks, some guys are real students of the game and one or two of these guys will surprise with their understanding of a sport without having played. For those criticizing the coaching of the Canucks, credibility is important if that’s your entire shtick as a poster, which some posters definitely fit into. Hence my questions. If you have some level of professional hockey coaching knowledge, you’re a master at generic or vague description then, because I’ve not read anything beyond the basics. Your persistence that our coaching is dreadful in your posts is what has caught my attention. When I first tagged you, I figured either I’d learn something about the sport and our Canucks coaches from you or I wouldn’t. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Who is responsible for the team coach/coaching’s performance? Jim Benning Whatever you perceive the symptoms of poor coaching to be, why haven’t you (and I know it’s not just you yammering away on here about coaching) addressed the root, which is the GM’s apparent failure to understand the role of head coach as well as you and the other experts in here do? What level of coaching certificate do you have and which level of competitive hockey did you last coach? If someone were to describe/define certain hockey tactics relating to systems, could you name them, beyond “drop pass” if applied to the PP, etc? Your knowledge might come in handy, if not tested, soon. I'd like it if you started a coaching related thread, its an area I don't know much about and would love to learn from it if you're willing to start it. I know what I like when I see it (e.g. the way Pitsburg moves the puck) but it would be interesting to read actual coaching breakdowns of what Green is doing and what you think he should be doing. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 8 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: @189lb enforcers? you brought up a good point. What if Jim's only good skill is drafting.... It scares me to think of if we did fire Jim, I can't go back to watchin horrible drafting and hoping we trade our picks cause the rentals do more..... I like Jim but I wonder what a guy like Burke could do with this team and I think burkes first move would be to bring in a vet HC. Young team older coach , it works for a reason. But I do give Jim a pass on somethings cause he has brought in a few pests but Green doesn't use them, to stir the pot. I realized something when Green coaches he coaches a pussy version of torts style..... also what is with this ahl coaches that think they have to roll four lines....what happen to match ups....I'm all for four strong lines but match ups matter, Pearson bo and rooster should be a shut down line. ( I put rooster there cause I have ferland moving up to play with Guad and Jake once his healthy) Also so it's not easy to change a culture in a season or two but I'm starting to think Green is to peaceful , torts system works cause they play hard two way hockey and scrum it up and we may not have Anderson but a lot of teams don't have a tough guy like him and we arnt roughing up those teams either..... its not, he's been good at RFA extensions as well. His trade history was "OK" other than the Miller trade which is a revelation for the top 6. Free agency is where Jims made his big mistakes, and maybe hiring Willie D but I think he maybe did that as a stealth hire. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: its not, he's been good at RFA extensions as well. His trade history was "OK" other than the Miller trade which is a revelation for the top 6. Free agency is where Jims made his big mistakes, and maybe hiring Willie D but I think he maybe did that as a stealth hire. Yea your right, I was looking at an area everyone can agree upon, I've liked his signing but there's a lot of posters that don't. Same goes for his trades, I would say the Miller trade is looking like a home run and the Sven trade was something we needed to fill in the wholes gillis's drafting left us. I wonder if Green is a stealth hire too, I've never been a fan of young coaches and young teams together and im not even sure if Green even has the stomach to coach a mean team...... look at torts , his team embodies him ha hard working and a pain. Green coaches similar style but we have no push back......hmmmm 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 1 minute ago, RowdyCanuck said: Yea your right, I was looking at an area everyone can agree upon, I've liked his signing but there's a lot of posters that don't. Same goes for his trades, I would say the Miller trade is looking like a home run and the Sven trade was something we needed to fill in the wholes gillis's drafting left us. I wonder if Green is a stealth hire too, I've never been a fan of young coaches and young teams together and im not even sure if Green even has the stomach to coach a mean team...... look at torts , his team embodies him ha hard working and a pain. Green coaches similar style but we have no push back......hmmmm the way Petey plays a 200' game and even forechecks would make Torts smile I'm sure My position on Green hasn't changed, I'm meh on him but don't dislike him the way I did Willie D. If there was an upgrade out there I'd be fine with it but I'm not sure that coach is really out there, or would want to be in this market. Benning has been picking character guys so I think they will take it upon themselves and get more physical come playoff time. No one is going to hold Miller back in the post season. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: the way Petey plays a 200' game and even forechecks would make Torts smile I'm sure My position on Green hasn't changed, I'm meh on him but don't dislike him the way I did Willie D. If there was an upgrade out there I'd be fine with it but I'm not sure that coach is really out there, or would want to be in this market. Benning has been picking character guys so I think they will take it upon themselves and get more physical come playoff time. No one is going to hold Miller back in the post season. I know it makes me smile lol i agrees with you on Willie D but Green is making similar mistakes and why I've stated we need a caching vet to help Green and we can see if it's Nolan or Green or brown that is the problem , I think Nolan and brown should go first. Benning has has been picking future warriors for use , guys that play like kes and burr but Jim still needs a juice ha oh I agree Miller reminds me of a cleaner kes ha I can't wait to see him in the playoffs to see if he can live up to my hype ha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 35 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I'd like it if you started a coaching related thread, its an area I don't know much about and would love to learn from it if you're willing to start it. I know what I like when I see it (e.g. the way Pitsburg moves the puck) but it would be interesting to read actual coaching breakdowns of what Green is doing and what you think he should be doing. Heck on idea, actually, for some other forum probably. I’d get on it now, but have people about to arrive here. Anyone else reading and are also interested in learning, maybe we can create a reference section with relative material and informal learning from each other and who can sort through the trash and misconceptions out there our google army, as I affectionately call our killer creative posters who can find info. Great thread idea, Jimmy. Can think of a few others that would be good for the site/community. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 47 minutes ago, RowdyCanuck said: @189lb enforcers? you brought up a good point. What if Jim's only good skill is drafting.... It scares me to think of if we did fire Jim, I can't go back to watchin horrible drafting and hoping we trade our picks cause the rentals do more..... I like Jim but I wonder what a guy like Burke could do with this team and I think burkes first move would be to bring in a vet HC. Young team older coach , it works for a reason. But I do give Jim a pass on somethings cause he has brought in a few pests but Green doesn't use them, to stir the pot. I realized something when Green coaches he coaches a pussy version of torts style..... also what is with this ahl coaches that think they have to roll four lines....what happen to match ups....I'm all for four strong lines but match ups matter, Pearson bo and rooster should be a shut down line. ( I put rooster there cause I have ferland moving up to play with Guad and Jake once his healthy) Also so it's not easy to change a culture in a season or two but I'm starting to think Green is to peaceful , torts system works cause they play hard two way hockey and scrum it up and we may not have Anderson but a lot of teams don't have a tough guy like him and we arnt roughing up those teams either..... You know, I thought this myself and actually would include AV’s must shoot upon entry crap too. AV also playing some pussified hockey, even when he had options not to. Analytics changed everything. My eyes and the eye test must not be worth a rat’s ass anymore. Cherry knew the game, not stats. I’ll take him over any runt on TSN writing those silly reports, but I can say that from the comfort of my couch as I do the Al Bundy sit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck2288 Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) 16 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Then why only rip on the coaches? JB is the guy in charge. I don’t see many references to JB when posters are ripping coaching. And cool, good post. FYI to some...? Jr B is one step above Midget rep, RIP “midget”. (Was always a strange word choice, IMO, “Midget”) After minor hockey/midget hockey, kids who still want and can play, tryout for Jr B, or further up, while others go onto other things, like life, employment and university. I like to watch the Jr tournaments. https://www.hockeycanada.ca/en-ca/hockey-programs/coaching/essentials/nccp/levels-requirements As the link describes, NCCP certified can mean a lot of things, like being a coach of 6 year-olds in soccer or a perhaps a mentor at a business, it does not mean you are a certified hockey coach at any level, let alone competitively. A Hockey Canada certification is broken down into several tiers. I suppose at some point there is a module for “systems” in the competitive courses, but even then, I’m curious who on here could name any particular “system” being employed around the league. Collapsing, that’s a tactic, not a system. Same with drop-pass, etc. Left Wing Lock, etc. Some of that, like “the trap”, is almost cliche in its generic application here, in my experience. There are a handful of posters here who I think could legitimately describe a system and even label those. A handful. Playing Jr B does not qualify one for this expertise, as I’m certain you’ll agree with. Some players are just players, like at any job. I think this is an important distinction. I do think you have to have played some level of competitive sports to get sport. This is not to say that if you haven’t, your opinions are void, not at all. Hitchcock was a hell of a coach, but not a player, etc. Also, like broken clocks, some guys are real students of the game and one or two of these guys will surprise with their understanding of a sport without having played. For those criticizing the coaching of the Canucks, credibility is important if that’s your entire shtick as a poster, which some posters definitely fit into. Hence my questions. If you have some level of professional hockey coaching knowledge, you’re a master at generic or vague description then, because I’ve not read anything beyond the basics. Your persistence that our coaching is dreadful in your posts is what has caught my attention. When I first tagged you, I figured either I’d learn something about the sport and our Canucks coaches from you or I wouldn’t. If you read my posts you will see I don’t simply criticize Green or his staff without backup or alternative suggestions I have specified what I don’t like about the systems they run (or don’t run) and their in game in game management I went to the Junior B Level and then went to university as there is a point in life you need to move on with life as you say. as for ripping JB, like I said I love how he has rebuilt our pipeline, I could not stand Gillis... plus idiot Gillis fired AV. I don’t like the choices of Willie and Green. But Green is there and he is the one in charge of the coaching and in ice setup Like you, I read the other posts and it does not take long to pick off the posters that don’t understand the game. The drop pass is used universally in today’s game. It has been around forever and it’s a valuable tool for breaking loose, under speed, against teams that attempts to clog the centre ice area. I don’t mind the play at all when it’s well executed. the thing that presently is driving me nuts is our penalty kill. We play a static box and try to block shooting lanes.. generally ok but we put zero puck pressure on and don’t create puck stress and by not doing so limits the ability for us to possess and clear the puck. It causes us to not get in a line change and ultimately exhaust our pp kill line. we don’t finish d zone checks so we get constantly tied up in cycles. We don’t use the glass ever to clear our d zone and we constantly retreat as a first reaction once we attain possession. Very rarely do we run a 5 man d zone system efficiently, as much as Green wants his forwards to be defensively responsible very rarely do we execute the talk. I am convinced we have the O talent but unless we pick up our d zone checks and finish our check we will be exposed by good offensive teams. on the powerplay we seldom rotate positions on the upper triangle to create confusion. We play for perfect passes that rarely come. We need to put a bigger presence out front (Jake) and shoot then bury rebounds. We allow ourself to be boxed out buy keeping static offensive positioning Green rarely matches lines and he rarely takes advantage of icing line change ability to expose a weak opposition line. Far too often he simply rolls lines. I also feel Green is far too passive during the game. He smirks and swears under his breath but a rarely see him speaking to players anyway just a few things that tend to irk me. When I watch a game i rarely look at the puck. I look at positioning, check coverage, how players are adjusting to the play on the ice. I play in goal and I swear nobody watches and learns observes what’s happening on the ice more than we goalies do I appreciate your comments and I know you are one of the knowledge ones out there Edited January 12, 2020 by canuck2288 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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