Chucky Cheese

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1 hour ago, Darius said:

Ex Ref Paul Stewart chimes in here.....basically stating what most of the poster in this thread think....(along with a bunch of ex players and current game commentators)

 

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Paulbr-Stewart/Tkachuk-Kassian-and-the-Aggressor-Rule/196/103704

 

Rather long so ill put in spoiler

 

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Rather than debating the Rule Book legality of whether the two checks that Calgary Flames forward Matthew Tkachuk delivered to Edmonton Oilers forward Zach Kassian before Kassian went after Tkachuk with a flurry of punches, I will discuss two related issues that I think are prime importance in this situation.

There's still plenty to unpack, which is why, for purposes of this blog, I will defer to the judgement of the on-ice officials that Tkachuk's hits were legal: neither charges nor checks that targeted the head. That is arguable, but I think there are other topics raised by this particular incident that stand out in my mind.

1. Not illegal doesn't always equal clean.

In the everyday world, just because something isn't done in an explicitly illegal way doesn't automatically make it right, ethical or fair. The same thing goes for hockey. A player's borderline actions may not, in an official's judgement and interpretation, merit a penalty under the Rule Book. That doesn't necessarily equate to the play being "clean" or a "good hockey play."

In this instance, a winger (Tkachuk) deliberately took himself out of position and, from above the goal line, approached to deliver a body check to an opponent (Kassian) who was engaged below the goal line with a defender on Tkachuk's team. It's not a smart hockey play to make. It's also not why body checks are designed to be a permitted part of the game. They exist to separate someone from the puck, not to separate him from his head when there's no reasonable chance of bracing to safely receive the hit. Technically legal or not, Kassian could have been injured.

This type of a hit from above the goal line to below would have drawn an immediate response in the era that I reffed in the NHL. It would have drawn an immediate response even back in the Jurassic era when I played in the WHA and NHL.

This isn't Tkachuk's first rodeo. He knew what he was doing, who he was hitting, and what the response was going to be. The very reason why Claude Lemieux was so widely hated and disrespected around the game was for actions like these, followed by turtling to avoid accountability.

2. The Aggressor Rule was misapplied.

Kassian's hearing with the NHL's Department of Player Safety (DOPS) is for an aggressor/roughing infraction. This, in my estimation, is a misapplication of the Aggressor Rule.

The Aggressor Rule was created to prevent situations in which a defenseless player or non-combatant gets attacked. An example would the incident some years ago between Philadelphia Flyers goaltender Ray Emery and Washington Capitals goalie Braden Holtby. A line brawl broke out in the Washington zone. Holtby stayed in his net, minding his own business.

Nevertheless, Emery skated down the length of the ice and challenged Holtby to a fight. Holtby refused, but Emery said "OK, then protect yourself," and proceeded to beat down the opposing goalie.

THAT sort of situation is a specific reason why the aggressor penalty exists. It also exists to prevent a team's skill players from being jumped and pummeled by opposing players as a strategy for taking them off the ice. Basically, it's an "innocent bystander" protection from being jumped and forced to fight.

Tkachuk was no innocent bystander here. He wanted to have his cake (hitting Kassian in the manner that he did) and eat it, too (not obliging a fight challenge). That's Tkachuk's prerogative not to fight, no matter what he'd just done, but this was not an aggressor penalty situation.

The aggressor penalty was not designed to reward a provocateur who incites an opponent to turtle upon being challenged. I would suppose the DOPS argument would be that Kassian kept punching after it was clear that Tkachuk wasn't going to oblige him. I personally did not feel that the situation was territory into which it's wise to expand the definition of the aggressor penalty.

The problem with the misapplication of the aggressor penalty is that: 1) it spawns copycat situations, 2) It raises the risk of stick-related forms of response -- cross-checks to the head, spearing, etc.

Then again, I'm a dinosaur. What do I know?

 

Beauty find!

[theo5789]

4 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Burrows and Kesler only hurt other people's feelings.  BIG difference.

 

Torres?  No question he was a head hunter.  Only a Canuck for a season.  He played for half a dozen other teams.

I don't want to make it sound like I'm not a Canuck fan as I'm being questioned already, but Burrows has had hair pulling and biting incidents and Kesler has done a lot of dirty stick work (eg crosschecks into unprotected areas of the back). Surely our players have been called for charges before as well. We turn a blind eye on these things because they are "our" players. Kesler's antics often weren't called either because he would do it away from the play or when the refs weren't watching. They did more than just talk, but they were effective in what they did and teams that react to Tkachuk are also allowing him to be effective. There's a reason why he goes after guys like Kassian and Doughty.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

10 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Tkachuk didn't target McDavid or Draisaitl. He knows Kassian is a hot head and would react the way he did. It was targetted in that sense. He goaded Kassian and it paid off cause they got the win. They let Tkachuk get in their heads. You don't give him the attention, there's nothing he can do, but you also have to be responsible and know he's on the ice and looking for "opportunities".

Kassian should target the dwarf or any of the other girly men on the Flames.  WITH a good *CLEAN* hit.  If he is patient; the opportunity will arise (Kassian being able to skate will make that job easier).  Watch the Flamer fans start crying then.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

4 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I don't want to make it sound like I'm not a Canuck fan as I'm being questioned already, but Burrows has had hair pulling and biting incidents and Kesler has done a lot of dirty stick work (eg crosschecks into unprotected areas of the back). 

Oh please.  That's standard 'drawing penalties stuff'.  Jarrku Ruutu was famous for that as well.  If you can't see the difference between that and going for someones head, then I don't know what to say.  And please, the Bruin players shoved his glove/hand in Burrows mouth.  If he wasn't interested in Burrows getting a good meal, don't do that.

Edited January 14, 2020 by NewbieCanuckFan

[theo5789]

Just now, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Kassian should target the dwarf or any of the other girly men on the Flames.  WITH a good *CLEAN* hit.  If he is patient; the opportunity will arise (Kassian being able to skate will make that job easier).  Watch the Flamer fans start crying then.

That makes Kassian a dirty player no better than Tkachuk. Stooping down to his level makes things better?

 

Wait for a good opportunity and give Tkachuk a taste of his own medicine or force to make a bad turnover with an "attempt" to hit him and score a goal. There are others ways about this. If Kassian is going to do this, then he's going to have to answer Lucic or whoever as it's unlikely Tkachuk being that guy anyway.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, theo5789 said:

That makes Kassian a dirty player no better than Tkachuk. Stooping down to his level makes things better?

Because hitting a good with a good clean hit is stopping down to the same level?  Please.  This isn't the bantam hockey.  You must have missed that part of my post which I put in BOLD.

Edited January 14, 2020 by NewbieCanuckFan

[PhillipBlunt]

55 minutes ago, the grinder said:

lol and  theo isn't even arguing   against the canucks   , its called a discussion , Sabrefan  did whatever to himself  , sabrefan liked to dish it out but he didn't like it when it was dished back to him  and then he  starts crying about it in public ,  but whatever it was his choice to leave  

Your simplification of the situation is a joke.

[theo5789]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Oh please.  That's standard 'drawing penalties stuff'.  Jarrku Ruutu was famous for that as well.  If you can't see the difference between that and going for someones head, then I don't know what to say.  And please, the Bruin players shoved his glove in Burrows mouth.  If he wasn't interested in Burrows getting a good meal, don't do that.

This is exactly my point. Different perspective. All the justification for our players just like if Tkachuk were a Canuck, people would be calling those hits hard nosed hockey and for Kassian to keep his head up or whatever. Tkachuk is simply playing the agitator role and whoever bites lets him do his job.

[PhillipBlunt]

3 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

That makes Kassian a dirty player no better than Tkachuk. Stooping down to his level makes things better?

 

Wait for a good opportunity and give Tkachuk a taste of his own medicine or force to make a bad turnover with an "attempt" to hit him and score a goal. There are others ways about this. If Kassian is going to do this, then he's going to have to answer Lucic or whoever as it's unlikely Tkachuk being that guy anyway.

That's correct. In order for Tkachuk to be that guy, he'd have to actually have guts and a spine.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, PhillipBlunt said:

That's correct. In order for Tkachuk to be that guy, he'd have to actually have guts and a spine.

And have bigger cahones than Bone Spurs.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

And have bigger cahones than Bone Spurs.

Bone Spurs doesn't have any cajones.

[Darius]

One of the best lines from ex Ref Stewarts blog post:

 

This isn't Tkachuk's first rodeo. He knew what he was doing, who he was hitting, and what the response was going to be. The very reason why Claude Lemieux was so widely hated and disrespected around the game was for actions like these, followed by turtling to avoid accountability.

[theo5789]

1 minute ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Because hitting a good with a good clean hit is stopping down to the same level?  Please.  This isn't the bantam hockey.  You must have missed that part of my post which I put in BOLD.

Targetting players that aren't involved in this situation to incite a reaction is no different than Tkachuk knowingly targetting a hot head. Kassian should be targetting Tkachuk and not other small players that can't defend themselves as retribution, which seems cowardly to me. And he's set the precedent that you can keep punching even if he's down.

[RowdyCanuck]

2 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

That's correct. In order for Tkachuk to be that guy, he'd have to actually have guts and a spine.

We will have to wait for the x Rey's to get back before proving he has no spine.....

 

 

(if Kassin challenges MT to a fight next game and he turtles then we have our answer)

[the grinder]

5 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Your simplification of the situation is a joke.

lol is it now   it is simple as that  

[theo5789]

2 minutes ago, Darius said:

One of the best lines from ex Ref Stewarts blog post:

 

This isn't Tkachuk's first rodeo. He knew what he was doing, who he was hitting, and what the response was going to be. The very reason why Claude Lemieux was so widely hated and disrespected around the game was for actions like these, followed by turtling to avoid accountability.

Claude Lemieux played 1200+ games and won Cups. Tkachuk knows what makes him effective. Don't let him be effective.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Just now, Darius said:

One of the best lines from ex Ref Stewarts blog post:

 

This isn't Tkachuk's first rodeo. He knew what he was doing, who he was hitting, and what the response was going to be. The very reason why Claude Lemieux was so widely hated and disrespected around the game was for actions like these, followed by turtling to avoid accountability.

Even Claude Lemieux 'took his lumps' on the Draper hit...eventually.

 

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/throwback/201312/darren-mccarty-detroit-red-wing-nhl-hockey-my-last-fight-claude-lemieux

 

[Darius]

5 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Claude Lemieux played 1200+ games and won Cups. Tkachuk knows what makes him effective. Don't let him be effective.

you can be effective and win cups without being a rat that is generally disliked around the league.

[the grinder]

1 minute ago, Darius said:

you can be effective and win cups without being a rat that is generally disliked around the league.

tho a fair share of rats and disliked players have won cups  , Marchand .Pronger Scott Stevens Wilson lemiux etc etc  

[RowdyCanuck]

3 minutes ago, Darius said:

you can be effective and win cups without being a rat that is generally disliked around the league.

Look at guys like Pronger his a rat and he took almost ever team he played with to the cup final iirc.

ROWDY WANTS PLAYERS LIKE THAT.