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11 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Ha! Green deployed Jake all wrong. 4th line grinder minutes, no PP. Green finally smartened up and moved him up the lineup and onto the PP and look at him now. JV should have been on PP2 from Game 1 this season not from Game 43. If Green was a good coach he would have recognized that. If anything he's stifled JVs development. 

Just like everyone else stifled his development, right?

 

Just like Team Canada did....

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19 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Um - for all the times I've heard posters on these boards rip this team's "systems" - I have never once heard anyone provide a credible elaboration on what those systems actually are.

Most people here have literally no idea what systems this team employs - it is invariably and hopelessly reduced to 'dump and chase'....or 'defend the 0-0 tie'.  One of these boards' greatest ironings imo.

I have posted the current systems, the problems with the current systems, and suggestions to improve the current systems at least 20 times now in these forums every time some yahoo makes the exact same claim you just did. I'm tired of repeating myself. Here's a very brief summary: passive defense,  forwards too high on the breakout,  static powerplay.

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26 minutes ago, RomanP said:

It never ceases to amaze me how people who might have coached at a junior level pretend to be high level specialists and “analyze” coaching schemes and decisions on NHL level. I coach club youth volleyball. I think I’m a pretty good coach at this level (teams that i coached or was assistant coach on won gold and silver medals at Provincial and National Championships and I myself played on U16 Ukraine team many years ago). I also know that I have a very deep understanding of volleyball as a game. But I would never criticize in public a professional volleyball coach of Canadian National team, or even local university teams. That is because I simply don’t know everything that is happening within the team, players health, relationships, strategic and tactical goals, etc. So, just because you coached your nephew’s pee wee team to a 5 win season, doesn’t mean you can fully understand all the intricacies of a professional hockey team.

Cheers.  You remind me (not a comparable, just a reminder) of my university volleyball coach - who was from Bulgaria.  Excellent technical coach - and a positive guy - who did things somewhat differently.  I'll never forget a pre-game speach he gave us - I think it was before a match with the ridiculously superior Chinese national team - in which he urged us to "grab the opponent by the neck and don't let him up for air until he can't breathe!"   The team was pretty much speechless - and after a few moments of silence, our Captain piped up - "that's great XXXX (I'm not going to name him here), but what blocking schemes are we going to run?"   It was priceless/hilarious.   And our coach laughed along with us.  In fairness to him - he was a very good tactical and systems coach - and our team rose to the best season it ever had.   But there were no 'system's that were going to help us deal with that opponent.  Thankfully, they were true 'sportsmen' - took no pleasure in beating on a lesser opponent, and did a number of things to make it seem to the untrained crowd eye that we weren't as heavily over-matched as we were (ie they single blocked us virtually all night = gifted us a respectable amount of points and did not embarrass us in front of friends, family, 'fans'.   I'll never forget how classy the Chinese men were - we couldn't really communicate - but it always struck me that, had that been a US men's national team for example, I have little doubt they would have run off 15-1 (or whatever, accross the board) - whereas the Chinese gave us 6 or 7 points a game....and did so without 'patronizing' us in the process.

 

Anyhow, I always find these 'systems' discussions hopelessly reductive.  Even at the junior or high school level, systems are far more complicated than most people here realize.  In hockey, there are not only various dzone systems, neutral zone systems, forechecking systems, zone entry and exit systems, etc - but they literally change constantly depending on who is on the ice - ie a zone entry system for EP's line - or with Hughes' pairing on the ice - is not the same as what would be employed by a checking/shutdown line and/or pairing - and even those change situationally.   The pretense to judge these systems from an armchair viewpoint, with limited idea of what is actually going on, is an ongoing thing on these boards.  The additional irony for me - is that these systems also change/alter on-the-fly - as coaches adjust and respond to each other - and even the best coaches in the world sometimes get 'figured' out or 'gameplanned' in a way that catches them by surprise and they need to adjust to.  I don't know, but from my amateur, but somewhat experienced viewpoint, I consider Green to be a highly competent coach who is easily competitve with his peers.  I think 'we've' been somewhat spoiled in this market - AV imo was also an outstanding coach - and likewise, his 'systems' were constantly maligned in this market - but did anyone ever take an honest shot at representing and elaborating on them?  Not really.

Edited by oldnews
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1 minute ago, oldnews said:

Cheers.  You remind me (not a comparable, just a reminder) of my university volleyball coach - who was from Bulgaria.  Excellent technical coach - and a positive guy - who did things somewhat differently.  I'll never forget a pre-game speach he gave us - I think it was before a match with the ridiculously superior Chinese national team - in which he urged us to "grab the opponent by the neck and don't let him up for air until he can't breathe!"   The team was pretty much speechless - and after a few moments of silence, our Captain piped up - "that's great XXXX (I'm not going to name him here), but what blocking schemes are we going to run?"   It was priceless/hilarious.   And our coach laughed along with us.  In fairness to him - he was a very good tactical and systems coach - and our team rose to the best season it ever had.   But there were no 'system's that were going to help us deal with that opponent.  Thankfully, they were true 'sportsmen' - took no pleasure in beating on a lesser opponent, and did a number of things to make it seem to the untrained crowd eye that we weren't as heavily over-matched as we were (ie they single blocked us virtually all night = gifted us a respectable amount of points and did not embarrass us in front of friends, family, 'fans'.   I'll never forget how classy the Chinese men were - we couldn't really communicate - but it always struck me that, had that been a US men's national team for example, I have little doubt they would have run off 15-1 (or whatever, accross the board) - whereas the Chinese gave us 6 or 7 points a game....

 

Anyhow, I always find these 'systems' discussions hopelessly reductive.  Even at the junior or high school level, systems are far more complicated than most people here realize.  In hockey, there are not only various dzone systems, neutral zone systems, forechecking systems, zone entry and exit systems, etc - but they literally change constantly depending on who is on the ice - ie a zone entry system for EP - or with Hughes on the ice - is not the same as what would be employed by a checking/shutdown line and/or pairing.   The pretense to judge these systems from an armchair viewpoint, with limited idea of what is actually going on, is an ongoing thing on these boards.  The additional irony for me - is that these systems also change/alter on-the-fly - as coaches adjust and respond to each other - and even the best coaches in the world sometimes get 'figured' out or 'gameplanned' in a way that catches them by surprise and they need to adjust to.  I don't know, but from my amateur, but somewhat experienced viewpoint, I consider Green to be a highly competent coach who is easily competitve with his peers.  I think 'we've' been somewhat spoiled in this market - AV imo was also an outstanding coach - and likewise, his 'systems' were constantly maligned in this market - but did anyone ever take an honest shot at representing and elaborating on them?  Not really.

Agreed. When someone on a message board claims to know what the teams systems are, it's always a red flag for me. It basically shows that they don't have a clue...

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2 hours ago, -AJ- said:

I think the expectation for most people going into this season was that the Canucks would challenge for a playoff spot. Pundits were probably split 50/50 on whether or not we'd actually make it. If you think Green is a positively bad coach, then I'd think you would predict that with Green (a bad coach), we would perform worse than expected and miss the playoffs.

 

I challenge you to re-do your payouts and include a payout if we even just make the playoffs under Green, if you're truly so convinced he's a problem.

Hughes and Miller are the X factor no one predicted working quite so well. Now that we've seen the new team dynamic the goal posts have moved.  Why shoot for just making the playoffs? Seize the day! As the song goes, "the chance may never come again"

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59 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

That's where you're wrong buddy-boy. Team systems are everything in hockey and systems are created and implemented by the coaching staff. Thats why you can plug any player into a team that plays a good system and they'll have success. Gudbranson moving from Vancouver to Pittsburgh is a perfect example. A huge liability for us but within a month or two of playing in PIT he played like a reliable stay at home D man. He didn't just magically improve his game but rather it was the result of getting put on a team that had a solid defensive system in place.

The same guy that was a healthy scratch this year and traded again :picard:

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3 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Hughes and Miller are the X factor no one predicted working quite so well. Now that we've seen the new team dynamic the goal posts have moved.  Why shoot for just making the playoffs? Seize the day! As the song goes, "the chance may never come again"

Who says the Canucks are only shooting for the playoffs? If they get there, of course they'll be trying to win it all....

 

....but as someone already pointed out....one step at a time. We're talking about a team that has lost more games over the past 4 years than any team outside of Buffalo.

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11 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Cheers.  You remind me (not a comparable, just a reminder) of my university volleyball coach - who was from Bulgaria.  Excellent technical coach - and a positive guy - who did things somewhat differently.  I'll never forget a pre-game speach he gave us - I think it was before a match with the ridiculously superior Chinese national team - in which he urged us to "grab the opponent by the neck and don't let him up for air until he can't breathe!"   The team was pretty much speechless - and after a few moments of silence, our Captain piped up - "that's great XXXX (I'm not going to name him here), but what blocking schemes are we going to run?"   It was priceless/hilarious.   And our coach laughed along with us.  In fairness to him - he was a very good tactical and systems coach - and our team rose to the best season it ever had.   But there were no 'system's that were going to help us deal with that opponent.  Thankfully, they were true 'sportsmen' - took no pleasure in beating on a lesser opponent, and did a number of things to make it seem to the untrained crowd eye that we weren't as heavily over-matched as we were (ie they single blocked us virtually all night = gifted us a respectable amount of points and did not embarrass us in front of friends, family, 'fans'.   I'll never forget how classy the Chinese men were - we couldn't really communicate - but it always struck me that, had that been a US men's national team for example, I have little doubt they would have run off 15-1 (or whatever, accross the board) - whereas the Chinese gave us 6 or 7 points a game....and did so without 'patronizing' us in the process.

 

Anyhow, I always find these 'systems' discussions hopelessly reductive.  Even at the junior or high school level, systems are far more complicated than most people here realize.  In hockey, there are not only various dzone systems, neutral zone systems, forechecking systems, zone entry and exit systems, etc - but they literally change constantly depending on who is on the ice - ie a zone entry system for EP's line - or with Hughes' pairing on the ice - is not the same as what would be employed by a checking/shutdown line and/or pairing - and even those change situationally.   The pretense to judge these systems from an armchair viewpoint, with limited idea of what is actually going on, is an ongoing thing on these boards.  The additional irony for me - is that these systems also change/alter on-the-fly - as coaches adjust and respond to each other - and even the best coaches in the world sometimes get 'figured' out or 'gameplanned' in a way that catches them by surprise and they need to adjust to.  I don't know, but from my amateur, but somewhat experienced viewpoint, I consider Green to be a highly competent coach who is easily competitve with his peers.  I think 'we've' been somewhat spoiled in this market - AV imo was also an outstanding coach - and likewise, his 'systems' were constantly maligned in this market - but did anyone ever take an honest shot at representing and elaborating on them?  Not really.

Lol about your coach from Bulgaria. If you want to see the types of coaches i grew up learning from - YouTube “Karpol yelling” or watch this video: https://youtu.be/0x8vFHzC8kw. Doesn’t mean I’m the same though lol

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14 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Are you kidding?

You think you can one-liner an NHL team's systems?

 

Lol, no like I  said I've already posted in great detail the current systems and what can be done to change them at least 20 times. I'm not going to spend another hour typing out 10 paragraphs again for your benefit.  Maybe later I can dig up a previous post and copy and paste it for you but right now I got stuff to do. 

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Just now, CptCanuck16 said:

Lol, no like I  said I've already posted in great detail the current systems and what can be done to change them at least 20 times. I'm not going to spend another hour typing out 10 paragraphs again for your benefit.  Maybe later I can dig up a previous post and copy and paste it for you but right now I got stuff to do. 

Like continue to argue on CDC?

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1 hour ago, CptCanuck16 said:

The players have also seemed to adopt the "we played good enough, it's not our fault we lost, they're a heavy team" attitude which isn't a playoff attitude.

Do you know anything about motivating people?   You want them to believe that they are capable and so you try to bring some positives into a negative situation when they're obviously already beating themselves down over it.  A good coach will get that.  The team never packed it in...there's a reason for that.  The coach believed in them and didn't just go "at" them...he works with them.  

 

The statement below is an important one.  No one knows when you throw rookies straight into the league how they'll do...it's not a given.  And it's vitally important to have a coach who supports them....Petey is very hard on himself and Green's been perfect for him.  He's not making Petey the superstar only...he's got some great work ethics and attributes that make him a well rounded player and Green's also tapping into that.  To take the focus off "just" scoring and identifying other very important elements of the game that are also "contributing" to the team.  So he is a factor despite not scoring every game all game long.  And he's bought into that instead of just getting down on himself at times that he likely would have.  He sets the bar high enough...the coach understands that.  It's about the mental game, not just the strategic paper one.  

 

Young minds can be quite fragile or, the flipside, full of ego and unchecked stuff that maturity often brings - it's a balance that Green seems to get.  

 

If you can just throw these guys out there without a coach, why gripe about the coach then?  He's just filling space back there?  Why do you need a replacement if a paper bag will do.  Again...you're not helping your own argument(s).  Which one is it?

 

1 hour ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Yep, their winning has nothing to do with Petterson, Hughes, Miller, Horvat etc and everything to do with the excellent PP system, defensive system, and breakout strategy Green has allowed to be implemented. :lol: 

 

Its the other way around.  Petterson and Hughes are players who can dominate hockey games by themselves and they're still rookies! Those guys could win hockey games with a paper bag as a coach. Please don't try to pin their success on Green and his beer leauge systems.

 

 

These two statements contradict one another.  So again, pick a side.  If you can plug any player into a team and Crow is a good enough coach, why didn't he then?  According to your assessments, he should have been able to make them successful?

51 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Crow is a good coach. He had a winning record during his time here.  With talent like Dave Scatchard and Jan Bulis in the lineup did you really expect him to bring home the Cup?

 

1 hour ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Thats why you can plug any player into a team that plays a good system and they'll have success. 

 

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1 hour ago, CptCanuck16 said:

That's where you're wrong buddy-boy. Team systems are everything in hockey and systems are created and implemented by the coaching staff. Thats why you can plug any player into a team that plays a good system and they'll have success. Gudbranson moving from Vancouver to Pittsburgh is a perfect example. A huge liability for us but within a month or two of playing in PIT he played like a reliable stay at home D man. He didn't just magically improve his game but rather it was the result of getting put on a team that had a solid defensive system in place.

I think you're partially correct, and quite wrong at the same time.

Coaches and systems matter - but the idea that any player represents an equal and interchangeable part is seriously oversimplfied.

Gudbranson was neither a 'huge liability' for us, nor did he step from 'bad' systems to 'good' systems.  He went from playing on a team with Schenn and Hutton in it's top 4, and a revolving door of key, veteran, defensive players in the M.A.S.H. unit - a team that was 'rethinging' and depleted at the same time - to a deep contender with a whole complement of two-way veteran forwards, and a solid D partner like Pettersson - in which not only were they well coached with a proven good fit of systems, but some of the most talented, expeirenced, repeatedly proven players in the world.

Sometimes it has little to do with coaches and systems and far more to do with personnel and being overmatched.   Green could equal his counterpart tactically in those circumstances, perhaps even outcoach Sully, and still get his ass handed to him.

Shutdown defensemen like Gudbranson rarely look good in circumstances where they are playing on a young team, with a bunch of inexperienced defensive players and handfuls of tweeners/placeholders stepping in to fill the holes left by Tanevs, Edlers,  Sutters. Beagles, etc.  

It's akin to the context I described above, where it doesn't matter who your coach is or what your systems are if your opponent is also well-coached and vastly more talented and deep.

Both those factors weigh heavily - talent/ability - and coaching/systems.  If we take what you're arguing literally, you would seem to believe that a 'good' coach could have gotten vastly superior results out of the types of rosters Green has wound up working with the past few years.

The improvement in this team this year is not simply Green et al improving systems - they have a better, deeper, more talented and balanced group of players to work with - that matters.

Edited by oldnews
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11 minutes ago, RomanP said:

Lol about your coach from Bulgaria. If you want to see the types of coaches i grew up learning from - YouTube “Karpol yelling” or watch this video: https://youtu.be/0x8vFHzC8kw. Doesn’t mean I’m the same though lol

I loved the fire from our Bulgarian coach.  He was firey, but not disrespectul. 

Not knowing what that coach in those youtube videos is saying, it's hard to guess whether his message matches his tone.  He may be entirely respectful despite the tone, depending on what he's actually saying.  I have no problem with firey coaches like that - as long as there is a line of respect running through it.

As you would know - volleyball is an incredibly adrenalin-driven sport - a momentum driven sport - demanding full and constant concentration, attention and drive when the ball is in play.  I love the 'rush' of it - and I think an intense coach can help hold that space and enhance that 'continuity'. 

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Here's the thing (and I agree that both, systems and personnel are important).

 

You can have a great system in place but if the players aren't on the same page or have respect for their coach, they're not  buying in.  So it matters little.

 

You have to have a coach that's got their ears...that has the room.  You start there, then you can build from it. 

 

To suggest that you just push the systems into place and all will be well isn't really so.  You have to sometimes convince players that the way they want to play may not be the best way to play. They have to trust the coach before they trust the system.

 

Even if there seems to be a lack of one...sometimes it's the players not buying in.  But the coach will take the brunt in that.

 

Green's stated patience and belief in "their game" and at times young players will have to be reminded as they try to do too much.  A coach who encourages rather than demands seems more in line with today's game/players.

 

Green has created an atmosphere of support and unity....everything else will branch out from that.

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9 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Lol, no like I  said I've already posted in great detail the current systems and what can be done to change them at least 20 times. I'm not going to spend another hour typing out 10 paragraphs again for your benefit.  Maybe later I can dig up a previous post and copy and paste it for you but right now I got stuff to do. 

yeah I understand not wanting to repeat yourself at length - if you have a link to that/those posts, it could start an interesting discussion.  I've posted a bunch of material on these boards regarding systems as well, particularly during the Tortorella era - but there has always been a deficit of information and a surplus of opinion regardless.

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11 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Lol, no like I  said I've already posted in great detail the current systems and what can be done to change them at least 20 times. I'm not going to spend another hour typing out 10 paragraphs again for your benefit.  Maybe later I can dig up a previous post and copy and paste it for you but right now I got stuff to do. 

Like try and pull more bs from your back side? 

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17 minutes ago, CptCanuck16 said:

Lol, no like I  said I've already posted in great detail the current systems and what can be done to change them at least 20 times. I'm not going to spend another hour typing out 10 paragraphs again for your benefit.  Maybe later I can dig up a previous post and copy and paste it for you but right now I got stuff to do. 

We're currently sitting atop a fairly tough division - not sure changes are necessary. 

 

Despite how we got there and if was pretty or not.  Matters little.

 

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