Jake Virtanen Vs Jared McCann. Juolevi??? JB????

[Hogs & Podz]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

OJ's ceiling is easily a top pairing guy and his floor a 3 or 4.    I have watched a dozen of his games live this year and this kid is a gem.   Not sure what more you want out of a developing player than he is showing right now.   He past 10-12 games are the first he has had injury/pain free in a long while and he is DOMINATING games.   

 

Not sure what it is about writing off kids before they have a chance to develop - let alone kids who have some initial bad injury luck.   If he was 25 or so, then temper the expectation but your writing him off now given what he is doing and given how young he is simply makes zero sense.    

I've been wondering the same thing about writing off our prospects so early.  My theory is, historically, canuck fans have never seen prospects turn out on a regular bases.  As a result, they're skeptical and easily frustrated with the developing process.  So they start whinning when that prospect doesn't show right away that they aren't the second coming of Pettersson or Hughes.  We as fans in this moment, are getting educated as to what a first class drafting management team looks like. 

 

I appreciate how you have defended these young men against these so called fans spitting there troll hate.  Finally we are seeing the positive results of the Benning era drafting and development.  Now that Virtanen and soon enough Juolevi are showing their potential.... Maybe, just maybe the handringing, sky is falling canuck 'fans' might just shut the bleep up and be patient for a change. 

 

We have so many more prospects in the pipeline that are so close to making the big club.  This will be the best era in the Canucks franchise hands down!

[Rob_Zepp]

31 minutes ago, Hogs & Podz said:

I've been wondering the same thing about writing off our prospects so early.  My theory is, historically, canuck fans have never seen prospects turn out on a regular bases.  As a result, they're skeptical and easily frustrated with the developing process.  So they start whinning when that prospect doesn't show right away that they aren't the second coming of Pettersson or Hughes.  We as fans in this moment, are getting educated as to what a first class drafting management team looks like. 

 

I appreciate how you have defended these young men against these so called fans spitting there troll hate.  Finally we are seeing the positive results of the Benning era drafting and development.  Now that Virtanen and soon enough Juolevi are showing their potential.... Maybe, just maybe the handringing, sky is falling canuck 'fans' might just shut the bleep up and be patient for a change. 

 

We have so many more prospects in the pipeline that are so close to making the big club.  This will be the best era in the Canucks franchise hands down!

I think very few of those who are not patient are either in one or two camps - the first is they are very keen about the Canucks (and hockey) but have literally zero hockey knowledge and think kids are somehow robots (e.g. have no clue how hard it is to get to NHL let alone progress once there) - or the second camp which is people who feel slighted by someone not living up to their expectations in a timely manner and that simply won't do.    I have a lot more patience with the former than the latter.   

 

Jake was always going to be in the group of players that IF he did emerge was going to be in the later bloomer group - that was obvious from the get go but no matter how many times it was said, it was ignored (largely by those in one of the two camps above).   With OJ it is slightly different in that Dmen typically always take longer so a little less angst from both camps but then someone his injuries were deemed a development flaw versus just bad luck.   

 

In any event, Canucks are potentially having each of their first round picks under Benning develop into truly impactful NHL players and few GMs can say that over a long period of time.   

[ShawnAntoski]

In my opinion, a team needs to have prospects develope in varying degrees cause of the cap. For example: JVs' slow development (or stalled in OJs' case), actually benefitted the Canucks, in a long term manner because he got to stay and develope with a small cap. 

In a way, it was also a win win scenario cause JV was able to develope at his own pace and became a more complete player (with the Staffs help), which in turn, increased his value (big kudos, to JV also for working his butt off without any know attitude issue). 

Edited January 21, 2020 by ShawnAntoski

[timberz21]

11 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

OJ's ceiling is easily a top pairing guy and his floor a 3 or 4.    I have watched a dozen of his games live this year and this kid is a gem.   Not sure what more you want out of a developing player than he is showing right now.   He past 10-12 games are the first he has had injury/pain free in a long while and he is DOMINATING games.   

 

Not sure what it is about writing off kids before they have a chance to develop - let alone kids who have some initial bad injury luck.   If he was 25 or so, then temper the expectation but your writing him off now given what he is doing and given how young he is simply makes zero sense.    

I'm not writing him off at all, I just said he will be an NHL player.   However, unlike you, I don't have rose colored glasses and painting Juolevi with an easy floor of 3-4 (or worse and easy 1-2 ceiling) when the guy hasn't even played one NHL games.  Top pairings are reserved for the elite (unless someone is piggyback riding on a shallow team) and usually, those elite player (injured or not) show their elite gamebreaking skills early on, like Hughes.   Juolevi will be a good player, but if he had shown any of that gamebreaking ability to be a top pairing, he would have been here by now already, someone along the organization would have notice.

 

 

 

 

[timberz21]

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Edited January 21, 2020 by timberz21

[timberz21]

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Edited January 21, 2020 by timberz21

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

I'm not writing him off at all, I just said he will be an NHL player.   However, unlike you, I don't have rose colored glasses and painting Juolevi with an easy floor of 3-4 (or worse and easy 1-2 ceiling) when the guy hasn't even played one NHL games.  Top pairings are reserved for the elite (unless someone is piggyback riding on a shallow team) and usually, those elite player (injured or not) show their elite gamebreaking skills early on, like Hughes.   Juolevi will be a good player, but if he had shown any of that gamebreaking ability to be a top pairing, he would have been here by now already, someone along the organization would have notice.

 

 

 

 

Uh, no.   Sorry to disagree with you as that seems to annoy you but that is simply wrong with all prospects let alone one who would have had a hard time "being here" when injured.    

[WeneedLumme]

1 hour ago, timberz21 said:

I'm not writing him off at all, I just said he will be an NHL player.   However, unlike you, I don't have rose colored glasses and painting Juolevi with an easy floor of 3-4 (or worse and easy 1-2 ceiling) when the guy hasn't even played one NHL games.  Top pairings are reserved for the elite (unless someone is piggyback riding on a shallow team) and usually, those elite player (injured or not) show their elite gamebreaking skills early on, like Hughes.   Juolevi will be a good player, but if he had shown any of that gamebreaking ability to be a top pairing, he would have been here by now already, someone along the organization would have notice.

 

 

 

 

What nonsense. So top pairing Dmen will be showing their elite gamebreaking ability in the NHL before they are 21, regardless of injuries? I could produce a long list of top pairing Dmen who did not follow your delusional career path, but it is obvious that you are being willfully obtuse.

[dm_ranger]

12 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

I think very few of those who are not patient are either in one or two camps - the first is they are very keen about the Canucks (and hockey) but have literally zero hockey knowledge and think kids are somehow robots (e.g. have no clue how hard it is to get to NHL let alone progress once there) - or the second camp which is people who feel slighted by someone not living up to their expectations in a timely manner and that simply won't do.    I have a lot more patience with the former than the latter.   

 

Jake was always going to be in the group of players that IF he did emerge was going to be in the later bloomer group - that was obvious from the get go but no matter how many times it was said, it was ignored (largely by those in one of the two camps above).   With OJ it is slightly different in that Dmen typically always take longer so a little less angst from both camps but then someone his injuries were deemed a development flaw versus just bad luck.   

 

In any event, Canucks are potentially having each of their first round picks under Benning develop into truly impactful NHL players and few GMs can say that over a long period of time.   

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I think it is also fair to say that his development has been slowed due to injuries -- that is not a flaw but I do think that it is a valid point.

Back and Knees are significant areas of the body. 

Compared to those drafted around him, it has been disappointing that he is just now looking like a great AHLer. 

Although if memory serves me he was doing that last year before his knee injury shut him down.

 

His ceiling might be top 1-2 -- but as for his floor -- there is a chance that he is never an NHL regular due to injuries.  (although I think this unlikely)

 

I would love for him to eventually replace Edler.  I am hoping he can replace Benn, because I am hoping he will finally be healthy.

[Wayne Glensky]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:44 PM, Arrow 1983 said:

the level of your maturity astounds me  

He’s not wrong 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, dm_ranger said:

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I think it is also fair to say that his development has been slowed due to injuries -- that is not a flaw but I do think that it is a valid point.

Back and Knees are significant areas of the body. 

Compared to those drafted around him, it has been disappointing that he is just now looking like a great AHLer. 

Although if memory serves me he was doing that last year before his knee injury shut him down.

 

His ceiling might be top 1-2 -- but as for his floor -- there is a chance that he is never an NHL regular due to injuries.  (although I think this unlikely)

 

I would love for him to eventually replace Edler.  I am hoping he can replace Benn, because I am hoping he will finally be healthy.

No question injuries have slowed his progress.   No question that injury history has been disappointing BUT in spite of that injury history, the two runs of hockey this kid has had a  professional level when truly healthy were in Finland and now the past month or so in Utica and both point to a future mainstay top 4 if not top pairing guy who can also QB a powerplay.

 

As far as a floor due to injuries - geez, even McDavid has that potential.    The nature of his injuries have not impacted his play so why project them to do so in future?

[Rob_Zepp]

On 1/20/2020 at 6:56 AM, dm_ranger said:

to count on Juolevi as anything more than a prospect is based on hope not evidence.

I missed this sort of stuff.    

[timberz21]

2 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

What nonsense. So top pairing Dmen will be showing their elite gamebreaking ability in the NHL before they are 21, regardless of injuries? I could produce a long list of top pairing Dmen who did not follow your delusional career path, but it is obvious that you are being willfully obtuse.

I'm not saying its impossible, I just wouldn't be my house on it, like the other guy is.  IMO It is pretty optimistic to state that he will easily be an 1-2 or at worst 3-4, considering the long history of disappointing 1st rounder/top 10 picks.  I'm pretty sure it's longer than your list.

[Dr. Crossbar]

On 1/19/2020 at 5:31 PM, Arrow 1983 said:

The truth is if these kids had failed, you can easily place part of the blame on their first NHL coach and GM. These 2 guys should have never been in the league when they where and a year or 2 in the AHL could have helped their careers. 

I agree with you here but this really needs to be put in the proper context. People tend to forget what was happening at that time. 

 

We were just coming off the shock of the disastrous Torts season. The fanbase was demanding change. The need for youth in the lineup was publicly exposed not only by Torts himself (stale core, need to get younger) but it was clearly evident to fans. The organization was also admitting we needed to get younger but it just wasn't happening quick enough. 

 

JB was really caught between a rock and a hard place. There was just no way, imo, that JB or TL could say we need to get younger without showing fans they were committed to doing that. They basically couldn't keep "talking" about it and had to put Virtanen and McCann in the lineup. They had to give fans hope and excitement while also making a statement about the future.

 

Given the volatility around the need to get younger after the Torts season, just imagine the reaction had Virtanen and McCann not been in the lineup. We were already handcuffed by the NTCs, which would keep the lineup older for longer.

 

It might not have been the right thing to do from a conventional perspective, but something had to be done to get younger. Even if it was uncoventional. They had to at least give Virt and McCann an opportunity to see what they could handle while also showing fans they were making good on the organization's promise that "change is coming". Remember all those billboards around town? There's no way they could keep things the same.

 

And I agree with what you also said about doing things differently in hindsight. I'm sure JB would play that differently today but it was a really unique set of circumstances at the time.

 

Keep in mind ... JB did do the right thing and sent Virtanen to the minors.