VAN & OTT (Proposal)

[mll]

4 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

A little research on HFOttawa page has revealed a GEM/diamond plan to dance around our coming cap-conundrum. They have a player who was so promising, they signed for big $$$, & now he has spiraled. Because he's so young, his buyout-hit is a sweet song.

 

Colin White. Signed 4.75 AAV(back loaded) for 5 more seasons. That's 20+ mill that EMelnyk would looove to dump.

Due to his youth, you can stretch his buyout over EIGHT(or nine?) yrs for a meagre 817 k cap hit

 

Van: LouiE AND Baertschi(pay Loui's bonus, he's only 5,000,000 owed/2 seasons, for a 6 mill AAV - Melnyk Special!)

 

OTT: White, I'd argue we should get a cond 2021 2nd/3rd, for taking on an EXTRA(approx) 15,000,000 $ real $ commitment!

 

Important point: You can ride this cheap buyout option for TWO more seasons(only 817 k), then it goes up to about 1.8 mill.

 

If we bought him out after next season, you immediately open up 5 mill for the important 2021-22 season, where EP & QH need new deals.

 

White: 2018-19 - 71 gp..41 pts(impressive, got a 6 yr doozy deal)

2019-20: 43 gp ..only 14 lousy pts! (rumour is he's struggling with similar injury to BSutter, groin/hernia)

 

*********************************************

 

Lastly, OTT has a slew of young C's, so they can easily fill this bloke's spot. Also prob two top-10 picks this 2020(fwd heavy) draft. Bet they'd JUMP to move this deal.

Your math are wrong.  They would only owe him 8M in case of a buyout.  Ottawa is in the middle of a rebuild why would they want to give up picks.  Dorion also knows that progression is not linear - he is only 23.  How long have the Canucks waited on Virtanen.

  

[qwijibo]

4 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

You shouldn't speak in absolutes(about trade spec), as frequently as you do. There are many variables involved, & you can't claim to know what Melnyk is thinkin' - even if you're his own brother!

Of course anything can happen. But logically this is an absolute home run for Vancouver and does very little for Ottawa.  

 

Vancouver gets $5m of cap space when they need it most, a 23 year old player who put up 41 points last season, and a high pick. 
 

 

Meanwhile Ottawa gets 2 cap dump contracts AND has to add a high pick in order to dump a 23 year old C who is essentially half way through his 3rd pro year.  They saw enough in him to sign him to a 6 year deal.  I suspect they’ll have patience with him given how the rest of the team is an absolute tire fire. The optics of the deal are terrible from Ottawa’s side. 

[Derp...]

In my head if the player wants out, and he just turned 23, Melnyk will want something decent in return not just money. He can't sell we got real dollars back for this former 1st rounder to the fans. 

Goldobin and Baertschi for White might do it. 

If you're lucky and he takes Goldy and Eriksson, run with that.

Maybe you can sign and trade Lockwood + Eriksson

Maybe Linus Karlsson and Eriksson and then Dahlen trade goes full circle with SJ. 
 

[Nuxfanabroad]

& these things never have to be precisely called(almost impossible to dream up both side's assets moving). There could be names like Sutter, Ferland, etc...

 

Basically Sens/Melnyk like dead cap that eats up space, & maintains the cap floor.

Whereas Van needs to drum up a little space, to squeeze thru a couple more tight yrs.

 

A case can easily be made where these two teams could scratch the other's back. The perimeter pieces are not hugely important, & can certainly be adjusted/seasoned for flavour. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Dorion/JB do further biz this summer.

[J.I.A.H.N]

I like this, but, I think you pay ………..

 

Eriksson + Baertschi + Stecher + Lind = ($10,600,000 )

 

for

 

White ( $4,750,000)

 

I do not think that is a huge cost, and it gives Ottawa, some young working pieces

 

Again, what is so genius about this, is it would only cost an average $816,000 for a lot of years (10 years) 

 

So, either way, you keep him if he becomes good, you can expose him in the expansion draft, you can send him down this year (22 more games), or buy him out

 

All are strong options when you consider the how much you save.

 

Ottawa could then resign him for less money!  WIN - WIN

 

This is a great proposal!

 

Or after acquiring White ...…...trade him back to Ottawa with $816,000 per year (X5 years)retained for a early Ottawa 3rd...………….love it!

 

LOL!

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by janisahockeynut

[mll]

42 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

& these things never have to be precisely called(almost impossible to dream up both side's assets moving). There could be names like Sutter, Ferland, etc...

 

Basically Sens/Melnyk like dead cap that eats up space, & maintains the cap floor.

Whereas Van needs to drum up a little space, to squeeze thru a couple more tight yrs.

 

A case can easily be made where these two teams could scratch the other's back. The perimeter pieces are not hugely important, & can certainly be adjusted/seasoned for flavour. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Dorion/JB do further biz this summer.

 

They were apparently asking for a 1st round pick to take on the LTIR contract of Clarkson - that was only 200K in real dollars owed.   Canucks are far more likely to be the ones adding picks for any team to take on Eriksson or Baertschi.  Teams know that the Canucks are cap strapped with the bonuses of their ELCs players.  

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by mll

[Nuxfanabroad]

4 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

I like this, but, I think you pay ………..

 

Eriksson + Baertschi + Stecher + Lind = ($10,600,000 )

 

for

 

White ( $4,750,000)

 

I do not think that is a huge cost, and it gives Ottawa, some young working pieces

 

Again, what is so genius about this, is it would only cost an average $816,000 for a lot of years (10 years) 

 

So, either way, you keep him if he becomes good, you can expose him in the expansion draft, you can send him down this year (22 more games), or buy him out

 

All are strong options when you consider the how much you save.

 

Ottawa could then resign him for less money!  WIN - WIN

 

This is a great proposal!

 

Or after acquiring White ...…...trade him back to Ottawa with $816,000 per year (X5 years)retained for a early Ottawa 3rd...………….love it!

 

LOL!

 

 

That's a nice variation, Jan. Yeah, there are dozens of possible permutations with the main pieces(LouiE; White) to start out from. If we can manage a nice PO run(fingers crossed) all assets rise slightly, in their relative-value.

[Nuxfanabroad]

More relevant info:

 

- Prob most posters are aware, but Sens have 30-40 million opening up in a couple months. Outrageous amount of UFA's, RFA's & probable incoming ELC's

- Will they keep selling pieces(TDL) forever? Presumably they'll need some vets to shepherd their incoming tsunami of fresh-faced ELC's. We do have a significant number of seasoned vets, with decent reps for helping young players along.

- Even some 'dead cap'(LTIR forever; Callahan, MacArthur types) is expiring this spring

 

@Chris12345 You suggested Aquas might be averse to taking on all this $$$ commitment. But if it straightens out the Van cap ceiling books, surely they make those expenses back with a higher-performing team? I could see some US owners maybe balking at such expense(if their market has empty seats & lacks passion). So this is where we might have the inside track on such a deal. Owners know a winner in BC pays back Heavily, in spades.

 

In a cap-paradigm league, this is the type of deal where a committed Cdn market can exercise & leverage that fan passion with extra cash & clout.

[timberz21]

The guy is 23 years old.   Yes he's not having a great year, but no one is going to buy him out at that age.  I'm sure someone like LA or NJ would take a flyer for a cheap pick before thinking of buying him out.

 

Anyways, I'm sure Ottawa isn't desperate to get rid of him, plenty of time to bounce back.    People keep saying don't trade Virtanen, don't trade Juolevi, don't trade Demko, it's too early.  Guess what, it's too early for White also.

[timberz21]

 

6 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

You shouldn't speak in absolutes(about trade spec), as frequently as you do. There are many variables involved, & you can't claim to know what Melnyk is thinkin' - even if you're his own brother!

LOL he's not allowed to claim what Melnyk is thinking but you can?

 

11 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

 

 

Colin White. Signed 4.75 AAV(back loaded) for 5 more seasons. That's 20+ mill that EMelnyk would looove to dump.

 

 

 

 

[Nuxfanabroad]

1 minute ago, timberz21 said:

 

LOL he's not allowed to claim what Melnyk is thinking but you can?

 

 

What's a well-run thread without a lil' hypocrisy & hubris?! :^)

[smithers joe]

i’m hoping that baertschi gets moved for a pick and louie retires after his  next bonus is paid. end of bad contracts. 

[Provost]

 

11 hours ago, Rick Blight said:

I believe if he retires all monies owed and the corresponding cap hit for the remainder of the contract fall off the books immediately.

 

When a player retires, the team has the option to pursue the return of a portion of the signing bonus equal to the unplayed portions of the contract, and that money is no longer counted against the salary cap. This is typically done through an arbitrator

 

If a player retires, any remaining signing bonus(es) is/are no longer payable, although if the contract took effect after the player turned 35 the full cap hit of the contract will still be charged to the team.

 

 

That doesn't really make it clear though.  Would it only come off the cap "if" we went to an arbitrator and had the money returned?  If that is the case, the dream of Loui pocketing his bonus, then retiring and us not getting hit with the cap is a fantasy.

It seems like a big cap circumvention loophole to let a team pay a player most of their money but not get charged with the cap hit, so I am not sure if it is actually possible.

[VegasCanuck]

12 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

It's a decent idea but if you were the GM could you go to Aqua and ask for that big cheque?

In this city, YES. If it made the team stronger and gave us a better chance to win, Aqua wouldn't have an issue with it.

 

Its not like this team isn't profitable.

[underrated]

11 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Of course anything can happen. But logically this is an absolute home run for Vancouver and does very little for Ottawa.  

 

Vancouver gets $5m of cap space when they need it most, a 23 year old player who put up 41 points last season, and a high pick. 
 

 

Meanwhile Ottawa gets 2 cap dump contracts AND has to add a high pick in order to dump a 23 year old C who is essentially half way through his 3rd pro year.  They saw enough in him to sign him to a 6 year deal.  I suspect they’ll have patience with him given how the rest of the team is an absolute tire fire. The optics of the deal are terrible from Ottawa’s side. 

It's an interesting idea @Nuxfanabroad, well done.

I think I agree with @qwijibo that it seems a bit too good for Vancouver.  It doesn't really make sense for Ottawa to give up on White after half a season of struggling, when they clearly saw a lot of promise in him.  Worst case scenario they trade him a year from now if he really keeps going downhill.  It also looks like bad optics for an already frustrated Ottawa fanbase.

Due to this, I think if a deal like this was a possibility, it would be us adding the draft pick rather than Ottawa.  After the July 1 signing bonus is paid to Eriksson, I could see a package of Eriksson, Baertschi and a 2nd for White.  The Sens could pitch it to the fans that they're getting a good draft pick and two roster players (even though it's clearly a cap dump by the Canucks).  Eriksson and Baertschi likely would both play for the Sens, and they don't recoup their first they spent on White, but a 2nd isn't bad.  The Canucks then give White a shot to thrive in Vancouver, but buy him out before the deadline if absolutely necessary.

[JeremyCuddles]

Why are so many people concerned with cap space? We'll be fine. Seriously. Look at capfriendly and see all the names coming off the book this summer and next summer. We won't be losing Petey or Quinn. Just relax a little. The season after their extensions kick in may have us a bit short handed in the depth department depending on their deals. But even after that season Lu's recap (3mil) is gone and so is Eriksson 6mil, and Roussel and Beagle's 3mil. The cap structure looks really solid. Only real downside was the Ferland gamble, which as of right now isn't looking too good with his health.

 

The holes in this team can be filled with our really solid prospect depth. Pod, Hog will likely be on ELCs. Lind, Juolevi will be on bridge deals. Gadjovich as well depending on how he develops. I am not at all concerned and I highly doubt Aquaman wants to right a massive cheque to pay a guy to not play for us just to save some cap in the next 2 years. Lol.

[underrated]

12 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

Why are so many people concerned with cap space? We'll be fine. Seriously. Look at capfriendly and see all the names coming off the book this summer and next summer. We won't be losing Petey or Quinn. Just relax a little. The season after their extensions kick in may have us a bit short handed in the depth department depending on their deals. But even after that season Lu's recap (3mil) is gone and so is Eriksson 6mil, and Roussel and Beagle's 3mil. The cap structure looks really solid. Only real downside was the Ferland gamble, which as of right now isn't looking too good with his health.

 

The holes in this team can be filled with our really solid prospect depth. Pod, Hog will likely be on ELCs. Lind, Juolevi will be on bridge deals. Gadjovich as well depending on how he develops. I am not at all concerned and I highly doubt Aquaman wants to right a massive cheque to pay a guy to not play for us just to save some cap in the next 2 years. Lol.

It's the 21-22 year that will be quite tight. 

 

Obviously there are tons of factors of who we re-sign, at what price they sign, if we sign any free agents, who Seattle selects, who develops, etc but let's take a stab at our current roster dynamics to see how much space we have.

Summer 2020

After this season Markstrom and Tanev's deals are up.  Hard to know what they will get, but I could see us re-signing Markstrom for $6 mil for 3 years (if he asks for more, you let him walk and go with Demko) and Tanev for $5.5 mil for 2 years.  Stecher, Schaller, Virtanen, Gaudette and Leivo also have deals ending.  It's not like we couldn't survive without them, but I could definitely see us re-signing Gaudette signing for around $3mil/year, Virtanen and Stecher both for around $3.5mil.

 

Summer 2021

Assuming no trades, for the 20-21 season we will still have Myers, Eriksson, Bo, Brock, JT, Beagle, Roussel, Ferland signed for another year (combined $38.125). 

IF Markstrom, Tanev, Gaudette, Stecher and Virtanen sign for around the numbers I suggested it would be an extra $21.5 for a total of $58.125.

UFA's coming off the cap is Sutter ($4.375m), Pearson ($3.75m), Edler ($6m), Benn ($2m), Baertschi ($2.291).  Let's say we re-sign Edler for one or two more years at $4 million, as he'll be 35 at this point.

RFA's are Petterson, Hughes, Demko.  Let's say Petterson gets $11mil long-term and Hughes $7 mil, Demko $3 mil both on bridge deals.  That's $20mil.

$58.125 + $4 (Edler) + $20 (RFA's) + $3.033 (Luongo recapture) = ~$85.158 for 2 goalies, 5 defenseman, 10 forwards.  Let's say we fill the remaining four spots with young players on cheap contracts (Podkolzin, Lind, etc), our cap is likely up around $89-90 million for the 2021-2022 season.  

 

Current NHL salary cap is $81.5 mil.  Might go up a couple mil in the next couple years. Let's say $84 million.  We'd have to cut $6+million (probably more like $8 million) to make it work, and we can't sign any free agent.  So we'd have to part with the final year of Eriksson, and maybe Ferland will be on IR, so that would make it work, although we'd have to fill their roster spots with two new salaries.

 

The following year we will get a little space back with Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel off the books, plus maybe Edler, Tanev and Markstrom's deals would be done.

 

So overall, I think we are in a manageable situation IF we don't overpay to re-sign our free agents, we don't sign any other free agents, and we make a deal or two in 2021 to get rid of some contracts like Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Ferland (or LTIR).  That way we can JUST make it work to fit Demko, Petterson and Hughes, just don't expect us to add any other significant pieces.

[Rick Blight]

7 hours ago, Provost said:

 

That doesn't really make it clear though.  Would it only come off the cap "if" we went to an arbitrator and had the money returned?  If that is the case, the dream of Loui pocketing his bonus, then retiring and us not getting hit with the cap is a fantasy.

It seems like a big cap circumvention loophole to let a team pay a player most of their money but not get charged with the cap hit, so I am not sure if it is actually possible.

I believe the possibility of clawing back signing bonus money for not playing out their contract is simply a financial matter between player and owner. In my estimation, this would mean that Eriksson could retire after receiving his bonus money if he has Aqualini's blessing. The normal practice in the NHL for players retiring while still under contract has the salary cap reduced effective with the retirement date. I don't believe any disputes with bonus money would alter this practice.

 

The most recent example I can think of is Luongo retiring before his contract expired. The Panthers wanted him to retire, as opposed to going on LTRI like a Hossa, as they wanted immediate cap relief to pursue Panarin and Bobrovsky. They still get hit with the re-capture penalty but his $4.5M cap hit is gone.

[GhostsOf1994]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:01 PM, 'NucK™ said:

Sounds brilliant to me. 

I am a bit worried about that year cause what if a team offer sheets Petey seeing that we are in a cap crunch? And (assuming we make trades and match it), it would probably end up being more than what the Canucks and him would have agreed on

Petey won't sign any offer sheet, so that's where that idea ends.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Do a deal with them at the draft(next page)...

Edited May 14, 2020 by Nuxfanabroad